Prayer of the Arminian, Charles Spurgeon

[UnitedWithChrist]

in other words

god prevents the non elect from hearing, and makes sure the elect will respond

and you see nothing wrong with this?

thats the problem

He doesn't have to prevent the non-elect from responding. They won't respond without being regenerated.

Your argument is with Scripture, and not me. Read Romans 9.

Some are vessels of destruction, some are vessels of honor.

The non-elect don't want salvation. The message of the cross is nonsense to them.

 

[Melach]

in other words

god prevents the non elect from hearing, and makes sure the elect will respond

and you see nothing wrong with this?

thats the problem

yes isnt it so depressing and sad.

you know in john 3 they say about the israelites being bit and anyone who look on the serpent on the pole was saved? thats how its with Jesus

all are bit by the fall of adam, but anyone who looks to the Son is healed. they use it in that context in john 3.

 

[Melach]

He doesn't have to prevent the non-elect from responding. They won't respond without being regenerated.

Your argument is with Scripture, and not me. Read Romans 9.

Some are vessels of destruction, some are vessels of honor.

The non-elect don't want salvation. The message of the cross is nonsense to them.

have you seen that you can influence what vessel you are? jeremiah 18 says God promises to do good, but if you turn and do evil, God repents of the good He was going to do and vice versa.

in new testament its same, st.paul says:

2 timothy 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

so in the bible in jeremiah 18 for example the idea of vessels of honor and destruction is opposite of calvinism. i noticed this when i looked at all the mentions of it. its same in timothy there.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yes isnt it so depressing and sad.

you know in john 3 they say about the israelites being bit and anyone who look on the serpent on the pole was saved? thats how its with Jesus

all are bit by the fall of adam, but anyone who looks to the Son is healed. they use it in that context in john 3.

One must CHOSE to look because they have faith in God, others CHOSE to not look due to lack of faith

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

i like him. pastor anderson atleast has the guts to say what he wants. he is not a sissy like many preachers today, afraid of their own shadow.

why would God say He was looking for a man but found none? nobody to stand in gap? thats stupid because God could just regenerate someone and give them faith and repentance gifts and there would be someone to stand in the gap. why is God wondering why people He gave totally depraved curse are not standing in the gap? of course they arent standing in the gap.

here is a funny video of pastor anderson yelling at calvinism. hahahaha. is it the yelling you dont like? it entertains me.

if you seriously want to know what steven anderson beliefs about salvation. you should listen to his sermons going through 1 john epistle. he doesnt believe you can just be christian today say sinner's prayer and then two weeks later you are atheist. he would say its false convert. God will keep those who are saved

I'm not going to listen to Anderson. He's a clown, and I won't be entertained by a goat-preacher.

And, do you realize he says homosexuals cannot repent and be saved? 1 Corinthians 6 clearly teaches that there are former homosexuals in the congregation.

So, this is funny. You are sensitive about every single person being savable, yet you follow a man who believes that homosexuals cannot be saved, and should shoot themselves in the head. He said it on the BBC interview entitled America's Hate Preachers.

The fact that you listen to Anderson shows you are lacking in discernment.

 

[Melach]

I'm not going to listen to Anderson. He's a clown, and I won't be entertained by a goat-preacher.

And, do you realize he says homosexuals cannot repent and be saved? 1 Corinthians 6 clearly teaches that there are former homosexuals in the congregation.

So, this is funny. You are sensitive about every single person being savable, yet you follow a man who believes that homosexuals cannot be saved

The fact that you listen to Anderson shows you are lacking in discernment.

i have listened to calvinist pastors also, does that mean i lack discernment? i dont follow pastor anderson. i listen to many pastors. i dont even live in america i have never been to his church. i like him better than mr. rockstar wannabe jeff dirtbin of apostasia church with his thumbrings and discharges and we know why. we know what he said to his sergeant. we got the evidence. some pastor huh.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

yes isnt it so depressing and sad.

you know in john 3 they say about the israelites being bit and anyone who look on the serpent on the pole was saved? thats how its with Jesus

all are bit by the fall of adam, but anyone who looks to the Son is healed. they use it in that context in john 3.

The issue is, what causes the person to look to Christ in faith?

Reformed theology teaches that it is because God changes the heart, resulting in faith and repentance.

Free-will theology teaches that the person needs to respond in faith and repentance first, to receive this changed heart.

It makes no sense because God needs to change the heart to incline them toward faith and repentance. He gives them the very heart that they need.

But, I don't think any free-willer is going to understand this. He is simply going to fall back on what he's been taught rather than Scripture.

 

[Melach]

The issue is, what causes the person to look to Christ in faith?

Reformed theology teaches that it is because God changes the heart, resulting in faith and repentance.

Free-will theology teaches that the person needs to respond in faith and repentance first, to receive this changed heart.

It makes no sense because God needs to change the heart to incline them toward faith and repentance. He gives them the very heart that they need.

But, I don't think any free-willer is going to understand this. He is simply going to fall back on what he's been taught rather than Scripture.

ok lets stop talking about pastors and insulting our preachers and lets focus on this topic then: reformed theology teaches reason why people look is because God changes their heart.

but why does God then command people to repent and choose right, if He knows they wont anyway unless He changes tehir heart? God is just wasting time

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

i have listened to calvinist pastors also, does that mean i lack discernment? i dont follow pastor anderson. i listen to many pastors. i dont even live in america i have never been to his church. i like him better than mr. rockstar wannabe jeff dirtbin of apostasia church with his thumbrings and discharges and we know why. we know what he said to his sergeant. we got the evidence. some pastor huh.

Did he say this before, or after salvation?

Do pastors sometimes make mistakes?

Does a person's outward appearance define whether he is acceptable as a pastor? Do tattoos disqualify him?

By the way, I am accused of nastiness to others, yet I don't call someone's church "apostasia" or call them dirtbins.

Yet, I would be condemned on this site for communicating in a very blunt manner.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

ok lets stop talking about pastors and insulting our preachers and lets focus on this topic then: reformed theology teaches reason why people look is because God changes their heart.

but why does God then command people to repent and choose right, if He knows they wont anyway unless He changes tehir heart? God is just wasting time

The reason relates to making them aware of their inability so that they will realize their utter helplessness in the face of God's commands.

God issues commands in order to cause the elect to be aware of their utter helplessness and sinfulness. It forces them to realize their utter dependence upon God. We cannot be the kind of people God wants us to be naturally; it requires being joined with Christ.

 

[Melach]

Did he say this before, or after salvation?

Do pastors sometimes make mistakes?

Does a person's outward appearance define whether he is acceptable as a pastor? Do tattoos disqualify him?

By the way, I am accused of nastiness to others, yet I don't call someone's church "apostasia" or call them dirtbins.

Yet, I would be condemned on this site for communicating in a very blunt manner.

you just called anderson a goat-preacher and a clown are you this blind to your own condescending behavior? stop whining. i never complained about your insults to pastor anderson not once. i can take it i got my big boy pants on.

 

[Melach]

The reason relates to making them aware of their inability so that they will realize their utter helplessness in the face of God's commands.

God issues commands in order to cause the elect to be aware of their utter helplessness and sinfulness. It forces them to realize their utter dependence upon God. We cannot be the kind of people God wants us to be naturally; it requires being joined with Christ.

but you know what that means? that would mean god is trolling the non-elect.

i cant believe what im reading. God is literally trolling the non-elect by sending prophets who plead beg command ask tell them to repent. knowing full well they got no capability to respond. i dont know that just doesnt seem right to me. you shouldnt ask someone to do something they cant even begin to do. if i command someone to give me a million dollars and they dont have it, and i know they dont, thats very unrighteous thing to demand that. dont you agree? why is it different when God does it?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

you just called anderson a goat-preacher and a clown are you this blind to your own condescending behavior? stop whining. i never complained about your insults to pastor anderson not once. i can take it i got my big boy pants on.

My point is that he is a false teacher. You referred me to his video. I told you I'm not watching him because he's a false teacher. If he claims homosexuals cannot repent and place their faith in Christ, he is teaching doctrines of demons. Demons don't want homosexuals to be saved.

 

[Melach]

My point is that he is a false teacher. You referred me to his video. I told you I'm not watching him because he's a false teacher. If he claims homosexuals cannot repent and place their faith in Christ, he is teaching doctrines of demons. Demons don't want homosexuals to be saved.

does it matter if he teaches it? in calvinism God will save all the h*mos he wants anyway. the un-elect hom*s are out of luck! its not the demons' that are behind it, its God in calvinism who doesnt want them to be saved. lolz

my point is no matter what he teaches or preaches it doesnt matter, God will always save His elect nothing and nobody can stop it

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

but you know what that means? that would mean god is trolling the non-elect.

i cant believe what im reading. God is literally trolling the non-elect by sending prophets who plead beg command ask tell them to repent. knowing full well they got no capability to respond. i dont know that just doesnt seem right to me. you shouldnt ask someone to do something they cant even begin to do. if i command someone to give me a million dollars and they dont have it, and i know they dont, thats very unrighteous thing to demand that. dont you agree? why is it different when God does it?

If a man owes you a million dollars, is it not right for the judge to command him to pay you the million dollars, whether he can afford it or not?

Is any man innocent of his sin debt?

By the way, if you read Romans 9, it has an answer to your question. It says, who are you, o man? It isn't your prerogative to decide what is fair and what isn't fair with regards to salvation. If God created some for honor and others for dishonor, it's his business what he does with them. I encourage you to read Romans 9 carefully. Paul answers your question.

 

[garee]

For a Deterministic Calvinist, prayer is the predetermined “means” to a prescripted end.

remember, God has sent me here to point out the futility of the Calvinistic position or I would not be here

which of course, if you are Calvinist, pretermines everything you will retort or even think

best to get off that merry-go-round and the dizzying consequences with predetermined conclusions that make prayer obsolete

the op, it would seem, cannot distinguish between an insult and biblical support for his position

as others have stated here, it appears that some Calvinists absolutely enjoy insulting others and think that somehow undergirds their obvious self righteous platform

LOL Dizzying consequences. Like let there be and it was good? God must do the first work of giving us faith. We having none not little, Zip.

Iron can sharpen iron . . sparks will occur.

It would seem that our God the determinist who according to Job 33 is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desires, even that he does. Like Philippian 2:12. God in us working to both will and do his good pleasure as a imputed righteousness .

How that makes who some a blamed on blame Calvin as self righteousness is a mystery. Job continued to say in the following verse For he performs the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Both Job 33 and Philippians 2 work together to show us what a imputed righteousness looks like.

God prepares our heart giving us a desire, previously having none to do His will .

He predetermines it beforehand and then works it out in us with us.

Faith us previously having none not little Zip is the reward of Christ's work of faith, it is not of ourselves.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. Mathew 6:6-8

Self righteousness would seem to fit the other camp.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

does it matter if he teaches it? in calvinism God will save all the h*mos he wants anyway. the un-elect hom*s are out of luck! its not the demons' that are behind it, its God in calvinism who doesnt want them to be saved. lolz

my point is no matter what he teaches or preaches it doesnt matter, God will always save His elect nothing and nobody can stop it

It does not absolve him from being a false teacher. I believe he can frustrate the elect, regardless if he can thwart their salvation or not. He's still teaching a doctrine of demons.

By the way, I am not going to spend a lot of time interacting with you on this topic. I don't come here to argue with people who are entrenched in free-will theology. I am simply defending Reformed theology and making sure that it is represented accurately. I am not interested in converts to Reformed theology.

Someone can be a non-Reformed person and still be saved. They're just wrong on that topic. In its extreme form, it is heretical, though, such as the teachings of open theists and Pelagians.

 

[Melach]

If a man owes you a million dollars, is it not right for the judge to command him to pay you the million dollars, whether he can afford it or not?

Is any man innocent of his sin debt?

By the way, if you read Romans 9, it has an answer to your question. It says, who are you, o man? It isn't your prerogative to decide what is fair and what isn't fair with regards to salvation. If God created some for honor and others for dishonor, it's his business what he does with them. I encourage you to read Romans 9 carefully. Paul answers your question.

yes all men are innocent of his sin debt if total depravity is true. because they are born into it, with no choice in it. like a dog is born a dog. sinner is born a sinner and no way out.

i did read romans 9 did you read jeremiah 18 and 2 timothy 2:21 which say the opposite of the potter idea? they say if you do good, God does good, if God promises evil and you repent God repents of evil He was going to do. if you purge yourself you become a good vessel it says. so thats what those mean the vessel of honor and dishonor.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

yes all men are innocent of his sin debt if total depravity is true. because they are born into it, with no choice in it. like a dog is born a dog. sinner is born a sinner and no way out.

i did read romans 9 did you read jeremiah 18 and 2 timothy 2:21 which say the opposite of the potter idea? they say if you do good, God does good, if God promises evil and you repent God repents of evil He was going to do. if you purge yourself you become a good vessel it says. so thats what those mean the vessel of honor and dishonor.

I agree with those verses.

If you can make yourself a good vessel, then you will be accepted. How many make themselves a good vessel?

Even such verses should cause the person to realize their utter helplessness before God to make themselves into a good vessel.

Yet, the free-willer will proclaim that he has, in fact, done that.

By the way, Ezekiel 18 is about some Israelites in captivity. Their ancestors had sinned, and as a consequence, they were in captivity. Their attitude was, what's the use? Our parents have already caused us to be exiled so we might as well sin all we want because our sins don't matter. God was saying, in essence, this isn't the right attitude. You need to be focused on your sinfulness, and correct it.

However, what would that require? It would require a new heart. Who gives them that new heart? God. Who is he going to give it to? The elect. There were elect individuals within the group who would respond to this urging because God gives them the new heart. The rest are going to continue in their sinfulness, but they were informed of God's command to repent, regardless if they responded or not.

Natural man won't respond. He needs a heart change to respond in faith and repentance. This heart is needed to exercise both, and in fact, are gifts brought about by God.

Your free-will view teaches that in order to receive this new heart, you need to respond in faith and repentance. This is called decisional regeneration. However, you can't repent and put your faith in Christ, because you have a hard heart.



Free-willers can keep their defective theology that causes them to boast about their free-will decisions. I know the truth.

 

[Melach]

I agree with those verses.

If you can make yourself a good vessel, then you will be accepted. How many make themselves a good vessel?

Even such verses should cause the person to realize their utter helplessness before God to make themselves into a good vessel.

Yet, the free-willer will proclaim that he has, in fact, done that.

By the way, Ezekiel 18 is about some Israelites in captivity. Their ancestors had sinned, and as a consequence, they were in captivity. Their attitude was, what's the use? Our parents have already caused us to be exiled so we might as well sin all we want because our sins don't matter. God was saying, in essence, this isn't the right attitude. You need to be focused on your sinfulness, and correct it.

However, what would that require? It would require a new heart. Who gives them that new heart? God. Who is he going to give it to? The elect. There were elect individuals within the group who would respond to this urging because God gives them the new heart. The rest are going to continue in their sinfulness, but they were informed of God's command to repent, regardless if they responded or not.

Natural man won't respond. He needs a heart change to respond in faith and repentance. This heart is needed to exercise both, and in fact, are gifts brought about by God.

Your free-will view teaches that in order to receive this new heart, you need to respond in faith and repentance. This is called decisional regeneration. However, you can't repent and put your faith in Christ, because you have a hard heart.



Free-willers can keep their defective theology that causes them to boast about their free-will decisions. I know the truth.

thanks this answer made sense to me thanks for this. especially what i bolded.