Prayer of the Arminian, Charles Spurgeon

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garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,776
1,502
113
#41
I wonder what happens if some of the selected do not get to hear the gospel? :unsure:
First things first. He must do the first works giving us ears to hear what his Spirit is saying to the churches

The man without the law of God the gospel will perish without the law of grace. As many that are under the law of grace will be judged by the perfect law that gives us liberty to do the will as our living God works in us to both will and perform his good pleasure .

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Ones perishes never to rise to new spirit life. The other will rise on the last day. Having maintained his confidence.

Philipians1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
4,346
624
113
#42
God makes sure that they do.

Remember, we believe in a Sovereign Lord who has elected a certain group of people. He's not going to leave one of his sheep alone who is never exposed to the gospel.

The Father elects
The Son atones
The Spirit applies

The same group that is elected, is atoned for, and the same group who is atoned for, is regenerated and taught by God.

God isn't a dummy god who elects a certain number of persons, then atones for all of mankind, and then fails to regenerate or teach some of the elect.

God the Father elects
God the Son atones for the elect
God the Holy Spirit teaches them the gospel, regenerates them, justifies them, sanctifies them, and glorifies them.

And, through regeneration, which brings about union with Christ, they are joined to his body and are discipled by other believers.

Salvation is a profoundly Trinitarian and communal affair in Christianity.

And, Scripture bears this all out. There is a definite design that is explained well within Reformed theology. I don't think free-willer theology thinks about much besides their alleged free-will and the humanistic presuppositions behind it.
I am real curious in trying to figure out exactly what you are teaching. When you mention "free-willer theology" what are you implying? Don't you believe that God allows mankind to choose how he wants to live his life? I understand that the natural man cannot discern things that are of the Holy Spirit. Even after a person has been born of the Spirit he still has to battle with his choices of yielding to the temptations of the world and follow God's commandments.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
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#43
I am real curious in trying to figure out exactly what you are teaching. When you mention "free-willer theology" what are you implying? Don't you believe that God allows mankind to choose how he wants to live his life? I understand that the natural man cannot discern things that are of the Holy Spirit. Even after a person has been born of the Spirit he still has to battle with his choices of yielding to the temptations of the world and follow God's commandments.
Free-willer theology is the idea that man has a libertarian free will.

In other words, his choices are not determined by anything external to his will, including God and his sovereignty.

Man has creaturely free will, but he does not have libertarian free will (autonomous free will).

The view of free will varies largely, so different free willers hold different views on it. The extremes would probably run from Arminianism (more mild) to open theists and Pelagians (extreme and totally heretical). For extreme examples, you might consider Clark Pinnock or Jesse Morrell. I think Leighton Flowers is tending toward that direction, too.

Reformed theology teaches that unregenerate man has a creaturely free will which is constrained by his fallen nature. He is a slave to sin, so his "free will" choices will reflect this nature. God regenerates the person, giving them a new nature that wants to please and obey God, prior to faith and repentance. There is a remnant of the old nature, called "the flesh", which still exerts a downward pull, but the person begins to make different decisions due to this change in nature.

The Reformed believer also believes that God sovereignly rules over all, including man's will, and guides it in the direction he wants it to go.

Free willers would claim that man has a free will prior to salvation and can turn to God at any moment he chooses, without a change in nature.

The OP specifically mentioned that he believes in libertarian free will.

Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=518101933226
https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=52810135573

These two sermons explain the problems with the "free will theology" view that is the subject of this thread.

If you want to listen to his entire sermon series on Reformed theology, here's the link:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/search....=series&subsetitem=What+Is+Reformed+Theology?


Brian Borgman is a very sound teacher and there are tons of his sermons on SermonAudio, including many series on important topics like union with Christ.

I discovered his sermons about a month ago, and he speaks about a lot of the topics I enjoy studying, including union with Christ.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#44
So, are you willing to apply the logic of your remarks to Arminianism?

If any Arminian is struggling with depression, is it due to his Arminianism?

If you aren't willing to apply the same standard to Arminian theology, then does that mean you are a hypocrite?

I think so. Hypocrites define certain standards to others, but don't apply them to themselves.

So, are Arminians who have depression guilty of bad doctrine, or even worse things, as you are suggesting?

Regarding John 12, which you allude to, but don't quote, the context of the Scripture is important. Jesus said that he will draw all men to himself, after being told that some Greeks wanted to talk to him. I don't think he talked to them, but said he would draw all men to himself after the resurrection. I believe he did that, in spirit, through the apostles and their outreach to the Jews.

John 6:44 says that no man can come to the Father except he be drawn, and if he is drawn he will be raised up the last day. Therefore, everyone who is drawn is also raised in glory. If all men, without exception, are drawn, then all men are saved, without exception, therefore universalism is true.

However, my position is that John 12 is talking about all kinds of men, Jews and Gentiles, and not every single man.

well then let's just cover up the facts since the facts of Spurgeon's actual personal life are not all that grace filled and great

much like Calvin

only Spurgeon didn't murder anyone

at least that we know of :unsure:

being drawn does not mean 'no choice

here is a silly example of that very thing

I can pass a bake shop and be drawn by the aroma of the delicious goodies but it does not mean I have to buy any or eat them

the meaning of 'no man can come to the Father except by Me' means just what it sounds like

Jesus IS the way to the Father. He is the way, the truth and the life....it's really reaching to put a spin on that

no one but a true Calvinist would present the very silly arguement that anyone here has EVER said we just get this feeling one day and decide to be saved

it would first take PREACHING to get us to that point...for some reason, Mr Calvin seems to have missed that point

PEOPLE are involved in salvation. they do not save, but they do play a part

I know that is how Christ was brought home to me...I HEARD about Him in Sunday School...otherwise I was quite the overactive little stinker at 5 yrs old :eek:
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#45
I think that when a Reformed person explains the beliefs well, and dispels some of the lies and misrepresentations of others, he will automatically face charges of intolerance. That is part of how the free-willer crowd asserts their dominance over forums like this.

By the way, I would ask you all to look back on posts made by this individual and ask if she has communicated in a kind manner toward Reformed believers. Before she criticizes me for intolerance, she should look at her own behavior.

Ask if she is a model of the very standards she is allegedly defending.

I would suggest that Reformed people endure a LOT more nastiness and name-calling than free-willers, because free-will theology has been the norm in the USA because they are part of the teachings of Pentecostals, charismatics, and general Baptist groups, which comprise a sizeable segment of evangelical Christianity.

However, this is changing. The Reformed segment is growing because seekers are realizing their explanations are a lot more biblical than free-willer theology. Free-willer theology is based largely upon humanistic assumptions that sets man at the center of the story, rather than realizing that God is at the center of his story, and that his glory is his concern.

aww...do yah now Laddy? 'tis a shame that you feel so the victim.

those 'free willers' are just not a part of the passive 'God made me do it' and so happen to create thoughts not in line with predetermined fruit and gifts and the like

yes, I can understand your position.

indeed then you have been here before?

ok apart from the joking, now you are actually going to call in others to throw stones cause I am not a soft target and can hold my own?

like I said

good thing executions in the public square are a thing of the past :rolleyes:

I was just discussing with someone this am how manipulative people twist what is said and try to play the victim

frankly and you can quote me, I think it is a dirty thing when others here to seek to mop up their own mess with others who disagree with them

just too bad there if you cannot take what you dish out twice fold

I would suggest that Reformed people endure a LOT more nastiness and name-calling than free-willers, because free-will theology has been the norm in the USA because they are part of the teachings of Pentecostals, charismatics, and general Baptist groups, which comprise a sizeable segment of evangelical Christianity.
duh

we all know that but we all know better also

I have actually researched online, ex-Calvinists who have NOTHING good to say about your exclusive little club

I have also come across comments from people who are not Calvinists are basically blown away by the nastiness flung at them

SMH

I never said I was modeling anything but when I was younger, I was often asked if I was a model...hmmm :LOL:
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#46
i agree with you that calvinism causes depression. even seeing john 10:26 and not able to explain it in non-calvinist way atleast yet gave me depression. i need to maybe listen to sermon from pastor anderson he have all john's chapters in sermon.

its the most depressing doctrine ever and maybe thats why they are how they are.

well, that may be a bit of a far stretch cause not all Calvinists are depressed and us regular Christians can also be depressed

sometimes depression is medical, but I believe and I have seen, it can certainly also be spiritual

what I was pointing out, was that as a preacher of Calvinism and so self righteous about and mocking others who held a different position, he was indeed good and depressed as a biography of the man will indicate

but yeah, IMO, this is indeed a very depressing doctrine and not at all biblical
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#47
be sure the calvinist are predestined to reply to you.
yuh know, I knew that

much like night comes at the end of a beautiful day

no stars though ;)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
#48
well then let's just cover up the facts since the facts of Spurgeon's actual personal life are not all that grace filled and great

much like Calvin

only Spurgeon didn't murder anyone

at least that we know of :unsure:

being drawn does not mean 'no choice

here is a silly example of that very thing

I can pass a bake shop and be drawn by the aroma of the delicious goodies but it does not mean I have to buy any or eat them

the meaning of 'no man can come to the Father except by Me' means just what it sounds like

Jesus IS the way to the Father. He is the way, the truth and the life....it's really reaching to put a spin on that

no one but a true Calvinist would present the very silly arguement that anyone here has EVER said we just get this feeling one day and decide to be saved

it would first take PREACHING to get us to that point...for some reason, Mr Calvin seems to have missed that point

PEOPLE are involved in salvation. they do not save, but they do play a part

I know that is how Christ was brought home to me...I HEARD about Him in Sunday School...otherwise I was quite the overactive little stinker at 5 yrs old :eek:

Again, my question is, if an Arminian person suffers from depression (as many do), does that mean their theology is flawed?

Or, is depression a brain chemical problem in many people?

Apply your logic to your own belief system.

Calvin didn't murder Servetus. The Geneva Council put him to death. Calvin served as the counselor on spiritual matters for the council. Calvin suggested beheading, not burning at the stake.

It's pretty plain that Servetus wanted to die. He didn't need to come to Geneva. He knew he was a wanted man. He did it intentionally.

John 6:44 says that all who are drawn by the Father will be raised on the last day. Drawing results in salvation in Reformed theology. It is a step that occurs within the chain of events.

The real issue is that you cannot put together all the Scriptures in John 6, 10, Romans 8, 9 in a coherent manner. The Reformed person can.

By the way this remark is more like Arminian theology:

no one but a true Calvinist would present the very silly arguement that anyone here has EVER said we just get this feeling one day and decide to be saved

Arminians are the ones who are noted for working people up into an emotional state that is mean to get them to make a decision and to walk to the altar. The Reformed position is that drawing can take some time, because the fallen man will resist it, but ultimately this resistance will be overcome.

Your remarks don't even make sense. You are basically misrepresenting Reformed people..which is not surprising because that is much of what I'm seeing.

There is a reason why Reformed individuals claim that they are being misrepresented..and that is because they ARE. Anti-Reformed people are either intentionally or deliberately misrepresenting Reformed theology.

Regarding the facts behind Calvin, here's an audio from an ex atheist who became Reformed. He delved into the historical inaccuracies relating to the events of Calvin's life.

https://thefreedthinker.podbean.com...story-matters-calvin-and-the-servetus-affair/
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
#49
well, that may be a bit of a far stretch cause not all Calvinists are depressed and us regular Christians can also be depressed

sometimes depression is medical, but I believe and I have seen, it can certainly also be spiritual

what I was pointing out, was that as a preacher of Calvinism and so self righteous about and mocking others who held a different position, he was indeed good and depressed as a biography of the man will indicate

but yeah, IMO, this is indeed a very depressing doctrine and not at all biblical
Refute the Scriptural references I have made. I think it is biblical and I have been on both sides of the argument. I find that Arminians taught me NOTHING and the ones I've came into contact with are vapid. They do not concentrate on important matters.

Many of them are involved in charismatic and Pentecostal stuff. Others are open theists and believe other goofy things. Few are concentrated on core issues regarding salvation.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#50
Again, my question is, if an Arminian person suffers from depression (as many do), does that mean their theology is flawed?

Or, is depression a brain chemical problem in many people?

Apply your logic to your own belief system.

Calvin didn't murder Servetus. The Geneva Council put him to death. Calvin served as the counselor on spiritual matters for the council. Calvin suggested beheading, not burning at the stake.

It's pretty plain that Servetus wanted to die. He didn't need to come to Geneva. He knew he was a wanted man. He did it intentionally.

John 6:44 says that all who are drawn by the Father will be raised on the last day. Drawing results in salvation in Reformed theology. It is a step that occurs within the chain of events.

The real issue is that you cannot put together all the Scriptures in John 6, 10, Romans 8, 9 in a coherent manner. The Reformed person can.

By the way this remark is more like Arminian theology:

no one but a true Calvinist would present the very silly arguement that anyone here has EVER said we just get this feeling one day and decide to be saved

Arminians are the ones who are noted for working people up into an emotional state that is mean to get them to make a decision and to walk to the altar. The Reformed position is that drawing can take some time, because the fallen man will resist it, but ultimately this resistance will be overcome.

Your remarks don't even make sense. You are basically misrepresenting Reformed people..which is not surprising because that is much of what I'm seeing.

There is a reason why Reformed individuals claim that they are being misrepresented..and that is because they ARE. Anti-Reformed people are either intentionally or deliberately misrepresenting Reformed theology.

Regarding the facts behind Calvin, here's an audio from an ex atheist who became Reformed. He delved into the historical inaccuracies relating to the events of Calvin's life.

https://thefreedthinker.podbean.com...story-matters-calvin-and-the-servetus-affair/

LOL!

the reformed position is indeed a position

thankfully, us non-Calvinists actually get up and walk around abit..clap and raise hands ...that kind of thing

you have a position that was taken centuries back by a man

I have a position IN Christ from whence no one can take me or persuade me

the work of the Holy Spirit is to convince us of Christ. not a man

I would say good luck with that but I don't believe in luck

about those historical inaccuracies...right. everyone who is not a Calvinist is wrong

well you say that anyway, so no matter I guess
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
#51
aww...do yah now Laddy? 'tis a shame that you feel so the victim.

those 'free willers' are just not a part of the passive 'God made me do it' and so happen to create thoughts not in line with predetermined fruit and gifts and the like

yes, I can understand your position.

indeed then you have been here before?

ok apart from the joking, now you are actually going to call in others to throw stones cause I am not a soft target and can hold my own?

like I said

good thing executions in the public square are a thing of the past :rolleyes:

I was just discussing with someone this am how manipulative people twist what is said and try to play the victim

frankly and you can quote me, I think it is a dirty thing when others here to seek to mop up their own mess with others who disagree with them

just too bad there if you cannot take what you dish out twice fold



duh

we all know that but we all know better also

I have actually researched online, ex-Calvinists who have NOTHING good to say about your exclusive little club

I have also come across comments from people who are not Calvinists are basically blown away by the nastiness flung at them

SMH

I never said I was modeling anything but when I was younger, I was often asked if I was a model...hmmm :LOL:
There's not much of substance for me to comment upon.

I can see why Reformed people become aggravated and react against free-willers, though. There is nothing that is more hated by man than the idea that he is not in control. The idea that God is sovereign over all things is extremely offensive to them. Romans 9 indicates that. I can remember, at one point, becoming angry with a Reformed person over God's sovereignty, and throwing a temper tantrum with him, so I suppose we can't expect free-willers to accept the truth without some persecution sometimes.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#52
Refute the Scriptural references I have made. I think it is biblical and I have been on both sides of the argument. I find that Arminians taught me NOTHING and the ones I've came into contact with are vapid. They do not concentrate on important matters.

Many of them are involved in charismatic and Pentecostal stuff. Others are open theists and believe other goofy things. Few are concentrated on core issues regarding salvation.

I actually do not give a fig newton about what you quote since you mostly quote Calvin and him closer to God than the rest of us (bleck cough cough)

I am sorry you were taught by Arminians

they too are only people

you know, one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, is the gift of teaching. I sit under those people. not more people and doctrines people made up

what you found, is not the norm for the life of a Christian IN Christ. we do not find what you teach in the NT...rather we find the spirit filled life and the spirit led life and life in Christ. this, IS life as John said

oh dude I can assure you I am anything but vapid. but you know that ;)

there are many pew warmers, but God knows those who are His and he KEEPS those who are His

so much of what you think is truth is your own belief and you are convinced in a system of belief
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
#53
LOL!

the reformed position is indeed a position

thankfully, us non-Calvinists actually get up and walk around abit..clap and raise hands ...that kind of thing

you have a position that was taken centuries back by a man

I have a position IN Christ from whence no one can take me or persuade me

the work of the Holy Spirit is to convince us of Christ. not a man

I would say good luck with that but I don't believe in luck

about those historical inaccuracies...right. everyone who is not a Calvinist is wrong

well you say that anyway, so no matter I guess
I don't mind demonstrative worship. That goes on in the church I attend, too.

Obviously I believe in union with Christ, as my username indicates. Again, another false claim.

And, I don't follow John Calvin. That's another worn-out claim by Arminians. Unfortunately some Reformed people have accepted the Calvinist label and that is not good. If I use it, it's only inadvertent.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#54
There's not much of substance for me to comment upon.

I can see why Reformed people become aggravated and react against free-willers, though. There is nothing that is more hated by man than the idea that he is not in control. The idea that God is sovereign over all things is extremely offensive to them. Romans 9 indicates that. I can remember, at one point, becoming angry with a Reformed person over God's sovereignty, and throwing a temper tantrum with him, so I suppose we can't expect free-willers to accept the truth without some persecution sometimes.

what a very silly childish ad hominum attack

and very false in its accusations

no one but you has said that all non-Calvinists believe God is not sovereign. I think one day you will have to answer why that might be

I don't like liars and we all know what Jesus about those who lie so maybe stop putting words in the mouths of others

you attack. you do not discuss and we all know that no matter what scripture is presented you are not going to reason for one minute

and having been here long enough to know more about Calvinism and the so called reformed movement then a person should have to. I am not going to bother. besides, I have entangled with you on numerous occasions with the same results

history does have a way of repeating itself :cool:
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
#55
I actually do not give a fig newton about what you quote since you mostly quote Calvin and him closer to God than the rest of us (bleck cough cough)

I am sorry you were taught by Arminians

they too are only people

you know, one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, is the gift of teaching. I sit under those people. not more people and doctrines people made up

what you found, is not the norm for the life of a Christian IN Christ. we do not find what you teach in the NT...rather we find the spirit filled life and the spirit led life and life in Christ. this, IS life as John said

oh dude I can assure you I am anything but vapid. but you know that ;)

there are many pew warmers, but God knows those who are His and he KEEPS those who are His

so much of what you think is truth is your own belief and you are convinced in a system of belief
Again, a claim that I am following a man. I listed out tons of Scriptures to support my position. And as I have mentioned, I didn't even know Calvin's name when I became convinced of Reformed theology...an Arminian pastor told me that what I believed was "Calvinism".

Anyways I'm not talking to you. You're annoying and arguing with you is pointless.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,659
113
#56
God makes sure that they do.

Remember, we believe in a Sovereign Lord who has elected a certain group of people. He's not going to leave one of his sheep alone who is never exposed to the gospel.

The Father elects
The Son atones
The Spirit applies

The same group that is elected, is atoned for, and the same group who is atoned for, is regenerated and taught by God.

God isn't a dummy god who elects a certain number of persons, then atones for all of mankind, and then fails to regenerate or teach some of the elect.

God the Father elects
God the Son atones for the elect
God the Holy Spirit teaches them the gospel, regenerates them, justifies them, sanctifies them, and glorifies them.

And, through regeneration, which brings about union with Christ, they are joined to his body and are discipled by other believers.

Salvation is a profoundly Trinitarian and communal affair in Christianity.

And, Scripture bears this all out. There is a definite design that is explained well within Reformed theology. I don't think free-willer theology thinks about much besides their alleged free-will and the humanistic presuppositions behind it.
It sure would suck for you if it turns out you’re not one of the elect.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
#57
what a very silly childish ad hominum attack

and very false in its accusations

no one but you has said that all non-Calvinists believe God is not sovereign. I think one day you will have to answer why that might be

I don't like liars and we all know what Jesus about those who lie so maybe stop putting words in the mouths of others

you attack. you do not discuss and we all know that no matter what scripture is presented you are not going to reason for one minute

and having been here long enough to know more about Calvinism and the so called reformed movement then a person should have to. I am not going to bother. besides, I have entangled with you on numerous occasions with the same results

history does have a way of repeating itself :cool:
I don't know who you are, nor do I remember past encounters with you. But, you're on my ignore. I don't have time to deal with you.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#58
I don't mind demonstrative worship. That goes on in the church I attend, too.

Obviously I believe in union with Christ, as my username indicates. Again, another false claim.

And, I don't follow John Calvin. That's another worn-out claim by Arminians. Unfortunately some Reformed people have accepted the Calvinist label and that is not good. If I use it, it's only inadvertent.

well you say union with Christ and the Bible speaks of our position in Christ, which I often refer to, and the NT states that nothing and no one can take us from God's hands

you call yourself whatever you want

and speaking of false claims, who said to you that you are not in union with Christ? I never saw that being said here. maybe you need new friends ?!?

honestly

I do wish you would keep it honest

but no...constantly referring to some ghostly Arminian somewhere who hurt your feelings

you exactly follow Calvin cause that is what reformed is. the same beliefs

like I said, call yourself whatever you want

I prefer the moniker 'believer' myself and I am not an Arminian but I am not going to go postal because you keep saying I am LOL!
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
#59
It sure would suck for you if it turns out you’re not one of the elect.
I have the internal witness of the Holy Spirit and the external witness of the Word.

I know I experienced regeneration and that is my anchor.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,659
113
#60
I have the internal witness of the Holy Spirit and the external witness of the Word.

I know I experienced regeneration and that is my anchor.
And so do countless non-Calvinists throughout the ages.

See how that works? Pretty cool, eh?