PRE- MID- POST TRIBULATION.... JESUS RETURN TO EARTH FOR HIS BRIDE!

[UnderGrace]

I haven't investigated fully what he taught on these, but (back when I became aware if it, generally speaking) I did do a study of what Scripture presents, and I agree with you that Genesis 6 (and Job 1&2) is speaking about "humans". (I think I recall you said that, earlier in this thread. Forgive me if I've misrepresented your viewpoint on this. This thread has gone faster than I've been able to keep up with, of late. )

No misrepresentation... agree this thread has really taken off in various directions LOL

 

[RickyZ]

Good day RickZ,

Am I correct from your post above that you believe that at the time of death that this is what Paul was referring to in 1 Thess.4:16, that at the time of death is when the rapture takes place?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and I Corinthians 15:51-53 describes the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up, both groups receiving their immortal and glorified bodies at that moment. The word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection" has to do with the spirit reentering the same physical body standing and up again, albeit immortal and glorified. In opposition, at the time of death for the believer, the spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord and their bodies are buried in the earth.

In addition, the scripture clearly shows that when the event of the resurrection and the catching away (rapture) takes place, that it will be group event, with those who have died in Christ rising first and then those who are still alive being changed and caught up with them in clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Since this is the case, if you have believers being individually raptured at the time of death, it is not supported by the details of scripture and it would mean that everyone who has died in Christ has been accumulating in the air and waiting for the rest of us. Here is the scripture:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

* The Lord descends from heaven

* The dead in Christ are raised bodily

* The living in Christ are changed and caught up together with them in the clouds

The above definitely takes place as one event.

Regarding this, consider the following scripture:

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

The blessed hope is the event of the appearing of the Lord where at which point is when the resurrection of all the dead in Christ from the beginning of the church takes place and the living believers are all changed at the same time and caught up with them. According to your belief that the rapture takes place at the time of death, there would be no need to wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of our Lord to gather His church.

Also, since the resurrection has to do with the spirit reuniting with the same body that the person died in, except now immortal, then if you have the rapture taking place at the time of each believers death, there would be no body to bury, for their bodies would immediately become immortal. According to your claim, for those who die in Christ, there would be no need to make funeral arrangements, because at the time of death they would simply remain in their bodies changed from mortal it immortal. However, that is not what scripture teaches.

To be clear, if say a believed died on a Wednesday and the Lord appeared the very next day to gather His church, the body of that believer would be gone and that because his spirit would be back in his body, immortal and glorified. The resurrection is a group event, as it will be with those still alive. The whole event will all take place in a nano second.

Jesus is our example. When He died, His body was put into the tomb, but His spirit went to Sheol/Hades. After three days His spirit reentered His body and his body came back to life (stood up again), immoral and glorified.

================================================
Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Definition: a standing up, a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Usage: a rising again, resurrection.

HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

I don't believe that heaven is constrained to our time-line. I believe that when we die, our spirits are caught up to be with Jesus in heaven as He returns for us. Our bodies lay in the ground uninhabited until our time-line catches up. At which time the physical bodies are resurrected and rejoin our spirit.

While in our physical world our bodies may lay in the ground for years, in the spiritual world I believe it all happens pretty much simultaneously.

But again, to understand this, one must be able to disconnect our time line from the eternal.

And again, the scriptures are contained in the blog.

 

[RickyZ]

Good day PennEd,

I also believe that what people call extraterrestrials, are demonic beings (fallen angels). It is amazing to me that people will believe in aliens before they will believe in fallen angels. I also believe that at some point in the future, that this promotion of alien deception is going to be used as some type of deception. After all, we know that angels can take on other forms. Why not little gray men? We also know that angels are mathematically far superior to any scientist on the earth and are therefore capable of creating these UFO's using technology that is far beyond man's abilities. As an example, I personally believe that the great pyramid in Egypt was made by the angels at God's command and that because of the size of the stones and the mathematical precision in which they were laid.

Take it farther ... EVERY manifestation of a non-earther is a demon ... including supposed contacts with he dead.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The church could be raptured weeks or months after being rounded up by the ac. It would still be pretrib.

I am about 50/50 on this,but i can just see those postribs ripping on us "See?,see?, where is your little rapture mess now????" Then wham! The wise virgins ascend to meet Jesus.They get the fruit of their investment.
One to the groom,the other to the guy on a white horse

Good day Absolutely,

According to what I read, the church will never see the antichrist, but will be gathered before he is revealed.

The One who now restrains is the Holy Spirit indwelling and working through church and is keeping the full force of sin at bay and the man of lawlessness from being revealed. Once the restraining force of the Holy Spirit is removed (and the church with Him), then the man of lawlessness will be revealed. That is the order revealed in 2 Thess.2:6-8

"And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.

 

[Ahwatukee]

.





I fairly agree with this explanation given in response to what "jb" said.

Verse 2 is often bypassed [skipped back over] when ppl are explaining what they think v.3 is referring to (when they see "that day" v.3, they skip completely back over [the Subject of] v.2 in order to grab v.1 as the Subject that v.3 is referring to as "that day," but that is not what verse 3's "that day" is referring to [and is grammatically incorrect to do], but instead is referring to the immediately preceding verse/Subject, "the Day of the Lord"--the time period that the Thessalonians were wrongly being convinced "IS PRESENT" [perfect indicative] and were distraught over, thinking [or at least at risk of being distraught over, this being wrongly convinced of such]).

This is such a common misunderstanding of this passage (to incorrectly label what "that day" is referring to in v.3 [misapplication], and to mis-define the arrival of "the DOTL" to be at Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth, rather than to the earlier arrival-point-in-time of "the man of sin" which is when it STARTS/arrives, instead).

"The Day of the Lord" time period's ARRIVAL is at the same time as "the man of sin's" arrival at the START of the DOTL time period (aka "SEAL #1 [Rev6], aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR (<--whereas Jesus had used the "plural" of this very word); so 1Th5:2-3; and Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" [<---the first of many more that follow on from here]; and 2Th2:9a [<---Dan9:27a(26)-"for one week [7-yrs]"], and 2Th2:7b-8a [parallel to the phrasing of Lam2:3-4]; etc).
Our Rapture/Departure precedes this [that is, precedes the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period with its "man of sin" and all he will DO over the course of those 7-yrs that lead UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom]. I would write more, but this is sufficient for now, to offer my position in response to the OP's main question (hopefully it is succinct enough).

I totally agree! The on-going error is not recognizing the change from "the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him" vs. "the day of the Lord," also referred to as "that day." Paul even reveals their order as the gathering taking place first, which is then followed by the time of wrath.

In regards to the Day of the Lord, some interpret it as being a single day, which it is not, but covers the entire period of God's wrath. In fact, it is the gathering of the church which initiates the Day of the Lord, the order of which is 1). the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him and followed by 2). The Day of the Lord.

========================================================
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

Now about the times and seasons brothers, (the times and seasons of the event above), we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
=======================================================

So the order is first the gathering of the church, which is then followed by the destruction that will come upon them suddenly, which is referring to God's time of wrath.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I don't believe that heaven is constrained to our time-line. I believe that when we die, our spirits are caught up to be with Jesus in heaven as He returns for us. Our bodies lay in the ground uninhabited until our time-line catches up. At which time the physical bodies are resurrected and rejoin our spirit.

While in our physical world our bodies may lay in the ground for years, in the spiritual world I believe it all happens pretty much simultaneously.

But again, to understand this, one must be able to disconnect our time line from the eternal.

And again, the scriptures are contained in the blog.

I am in agreement with you in that, at the time of death the spirit of the believer departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. However, this is not a resurrection. For as I explained to you, the word "anastasis" translated "resurrection" is made up of two words ana = up again and histemi = to stand, properly "to stand up again in a physical body."

In your previous post, you inferred that at the time of death is when each individuals rapture takes place, but that is not what scripture supports. The resurrection of the dead takes place first, where the Lord will bring with Him the spirits of those who have died in Him. At that time their bodies will be resurrected immortal and glorified and their spirits will reunite with those resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still living will be changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. The reason why the living are going to be changed is because they are still in their mortal bodies and so there will be no need for a resurrection, but only a change.

Time vs. eternity has no bearing on this event, as it is written for us to understand what is literally, spiritually and physically going place. Regarding this, scripture is very clear that when the resurrection takes place and the living are changed, that it will be a group event which takes place at the same time for the entire church.

To be clear, when the Lord appears all of those who have died in the Lord from the beginning of the church until His appearing, will rise first immortal and glorified. And then immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive on the earth will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At that point the entire church from beginning to end will be gathered in the air, where the Lord will fulfill His promise in John 14:1-3 by taking the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

I would suggest a detailed study of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Read it over and over again in order to understand what is going to transpire at that event, as it is very clear in its meaning. Those in Christ who have died, their bodies have been buried or cremated and their spirits are currently in heaven looking forward to the resurrection from that side. While we in Christ who are still alive, are looking forward to that event alive and on the earth.

That said, there are two possibilities for those in Christ 1). to be resurrected or 2). to simply be changed immortal and caught up.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Take it farther ... EVERY manifestation of a non-earther is a demon ... including supposed contacts with he dead.

Yes, I totally agree with you. However, we were specifically speaking about the extraterrestrial, i.e. alien promotion that we are seeing today. But as you said, we also have all of these tv programs which promote ghost hunting and the like. This would make them spiritists and mediums, which keeps them separated from God. These programs actually promote the idea that the spirits of the dead are wandering the earth, which is as we know is not scriptural. For we know that at the time of death for the believer, their spirit goes to be in the presence of Christ. And for the unsaved, their spirits go down into Hades where they begin their punishment. Therefore, there are no human spirits wandering around as they would have us believe.

 

[RickyZ]

I am in agreement with you in that, at the time of death the spirit of the believer departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. However, this is not a resurrection. For as I explained to you, the word "anastasis" translated "resurrection" is made up of two words ana = up again and histemi = to stand, properly "to stand up again in a physical body."

In your previous post, you inferred that at the time of death is when each individuals rapture takes place, but that is not what scripture supports. The resurrection of the dead takes place first, where the Lord will bring with Him the spirits of those who have died in Him. At that time their bodies will be resurrected immortal and glorified and their spirits will reunite with those resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still living will be changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. The reason why the living are going to be changed is because they are still in their mortal bodies and so there will be no need for a resurrection, but only a change.

Time vs. eternity has no bearing on this event, as it is written for us to understand what is literally, spiritually and physically going place. Regarding this, scripture is very clear that when the resurrection takes place and the living are changed, that it will be a group event which takes place at the same time for the entire church.

To be clear, when the Lord appears all of those who have died in the Lord from the beginning of the church until His appearing, will rise first immortal and glorified. And then immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive on the earth will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At that point the entire church from beginning to end will be gathered in the air, where the Lord will fulfill His promise in John 14:1-3 by taking the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

I would suggest a detailed study of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Read it over and over again in order to understand what is going to transpire at that event, as it is very clear in its meaning. Those in Christ who have died, their bodies have been buried or cremated and their spirits are currently in heaven looking forward to the resurrection from that side. While we in Christ who are still alive, are looking forward to that event alive and on the earth.

That said, there are two possibilities for those in Christ 1). to be resurrected or 2). to simply be changed immortal and caught up.

In my understanding, at death the spirit is separated from the body. And the resurrection does indeed apply to the physical body.

OK, you die. Your spirit rises to be with the Lord. Your body is buried. X years later, your body is resurrected and taken up into heaven where it rejoins your spirit.

BUT ... and this is the hard part for people to see ... even tho your spirit and your body depart earth at different times, they both arrive before Christ at the same time. Read that again. Even tho your spirit and your body depart earth at different times, they both arrive before Christ at the same time. Which is, in heaven-time, the point at which He gathers us before the feast and return.

Iow, heaven does not have a waiting room.

And those left alive to be caught up in the end, will be a very, very small number.

 

[Ahwatukee]

In my understanding, at death the spirit is separated from the body. And the resurrection does indeed apply to the physical body.

OK, you die. Your spirit rises to be with the Lord. Your body is buried. X years later, your body is resurrected and taken up into heaven where it rejoins your spirit.

BUT ... and this is the hard part for people to see ... even tho your spirit and your body depart earth at different times, they both arrive before Christ at the same time. Read that again. Even tho your spirit and your body depart earth at different times, they both arrive before Christ at the same time. Which is, in heaven-time, the point at which He gathers us before the feast and return.

Iow, heaven does not have a waiting room.

And those left alive to be caught up in the end, will be a very, very small number.

Where in scripture does it state that "even tho your spirit and your body depart earth at different times, they both arrive before Christ at the same time."?

What the scripture does teach is that, at the time of death the spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of Christ. Then at the appointed, the Lord will appear where at which time the body is resurrected. To be clear, currently every believer who has died in Christ, their spirit only is in His presence, while the body is in its grave.

What you are claiming above has no scriptural support whatsoever.

Iow, heaven does not have a waiting room.

Scripture would beg to differ:

"And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?”

The scripture above reveals that the souls of those who will have been killed because of the word of God and their testimony for Jesus, are under the altar in heaven. They are conscious and are having a conversation with the Lord. We also have Stephan saying the following as was about to die from being stoned. And they are indeed told to wait.

"while they were stoning him, Stephen appealed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (not "receive my body and spirit.")

You need to understand the difference between the spirit and the physical body, as well as the meaning of the resurrection of the dead and the fact that the resurrection and catching away is a group event which takes place as one event.

"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

"If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

The scriptures above demonstrated that to be at home in the BODY is for our spirits to be away from the Lord. And to be away from the BODY is for our spirits to be in the presence of the Lord.

There is no such teaching of the spirit and body arriving in heaven at the same time!

If you want to continue believing your claim, you are of course free to do so But understand that this teaching of the body and spirit arriving in heaven at the same time is not found in the word of God

 

[UnderGrace]

Where in scripture does it state that "even tho your spirit and your body depart earth at different times, they both arrive before Christ at the same time."?

I was wondering about that too?

 

[Nehemiah6]

X years later, your body is resurrected and taken up into heaven where it rejoins your spirit.

This is incorrect. When Christ comes at the Resurrection/Rapture, he brings all the souls and spirits of the departed saints with Him. That is when they receive their immortal glorified bodies, and immediately return with Christ to Heaven. Simultaneously, the saints who are alive at that time are perfected and transformed, receive their glorious bodies, and join all the other saints in Heaven.

 

[cv5]

 

[Ahwatukee]

I was wondering about that too?

Yeah, if both body and spirit arrive in heaven in the presence of Christ at the same time, that would get rid of the whole purpose of Jesus appearing in the air to gather His church. After all, if their spirits and bodies are already there at the time of death, they Jesus wouldn't have to come back to get us as He states in John 14:1-3

The following would also make no sense:

"as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

If when we die both spirit and body arrive in heaven at the same time, there would be no purpose in waiting for the blessed hope, which is the dead and living in Christ receiving their immortal and glorified bodies.

 

[Jackson123]

Matthew 27:52-53 King James Version (KJV)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I do not know where the spirit went when the die

But this verse say many body of the saint arose

Is that mean the spirit also in the grave next to their body, or go some where and back to their body when Jesus die.

Some saint are burn by Nero and we do not know If Nero bury their ash and their ash turn to body in the day of ressurection, anything can happen.

 

[Absolutely]

Fascinating yes. Legitimate? Jury is still out. Should we be spending time on that topic and venture? I don't think so. I was the avid listener to Chuck's opinion and theory though. Chuck is a festinating personality with a sharp mind.

Framing him around his research on aliens(demons) is like framing trump around his tax return.
Nothing burger bi

Good day Absolutely,

According to what I read, the church will never see the antichrist, but will be gathered before he is revealed.

The One who now restrains is the Holy Spirit indwelling and working through church and is keeping the full force of sin at bay and the man of lawlessness from being revealed. Once the restraining force of the Holy Spirit is removed (and the church with Him), then the man of lawlessness will be revealed. That is the order revealed in 2 Thess.2:6-8

"And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.

Revealed.
He is not revealed until after he is here
for quite some time.


To think he is sitting in neutral one day,and steps into the beast office the next is not plausable.

I agree the rapture is pretrib. And it COULD be before the ac takes power.
...but doesn't have to be.

Trump,whom i like,could easily,imo,rule the world if God equipped him.
At what point would he be "revealed as the ac" (not that he is)

"He that prevents,is preventing until he is taken out of the way"

But i am fine with your assesment and you could be right.
All i am saying is there coulb be a bit of overlap where we are all arrested and interned. All known believers arrested. And raptured from those facilities,with no effect whatsoever with "revealed" or "prevented".

On another note,have you ever wondered what is in the mind of a postrib?
They wholeheartedly believe invincibly that God CAN NOT do for the church what he did for noah,lot,and the baby Jesus.
They take that thought to the drawing board. Nothing can budge that "pillar" of their doctrine. It is offensive to their system of sorting verses.
I can prove the rapture is pretrib hands down to the point that several components make postrib rapture an impossibility.

IOW,they start wrong. They start with a skewed ruler and they CAN NOT see the angles are off .

The correct verses are "revealed" but their minds and investment "prevent".

 

[Absolutely]

Matthew 27:52-53 King James Version (KJV)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I do not know where the spirit went when the die

But this verse say many body of the saint arose

Is that mean the spirit also in the grave next to their body, or go some where and back to their body when Jesus die.

Some saint are burn by Nero and we do not know If Nero bury their ash and their ash turn to body in the day of ressurection, anything can happen.

The story of lazareth and the rich man.
They both continued as spirits in the next life. One to a good place. One to a bad place.
Paul said to be absent from the body (dead) is to be present with the Lord (in heaven,with Jesus as declared at the last supper)

At the last judgement all remaining dead are resurrected. "...and the sea gave up her dead"

It is fascinating.

 

[Absolutely]

In my understanding, at death the spirit is separated from the body. And the resurrection does indeed apply to the physical body.

OK, you die. Your spirit rises to be with the Lord. Your body is buried. X years later, your body is resurrected and taken up into heaven where it rejoins your spirit.

BUT ... and this is the hard part for people to see ... even tho your spirit and your body depart earth at different times, they both arrive before Christ at the same time. Read that again. Even tho your spirit and your body depart earth at different times, they both arrive before Christ at the same time. Which is, in heaven-time, the point at which He gathers us before the feast and return.

Iow, heaven does not have a waiting room.

And those left alive to be caught up in the end, will be a very, very small number.

""Iow, heaven does not have a waiting room.""
Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Kept under the altar UNTIL. Waiting.
Waiting room.


""Read that again. Even tho your spirit and your body depart earth at different times, they both arrive before Christ at the same time. Which is, in heaven-time, the point at which He gathers us before the feast and return""

Not what Paul said.
He said "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"

 

[Noose]

""

""Read that again. Even tho your spirit and your body depart earth at different times, they both arrive before Christ at the same time. Which is, in heaven-time, the point at which He gathers us before the feast and return""

Not what Paul said.
He said "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"

Your flesh goes nowhere apart from mixing well with the earthly elements in a process called decay. Your bones can be dug out after 1000 years as fossils to be studied.

 

[RickyZ]

Matthew 27:52-53 King James Version (KJV)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I do not know where the spirit went when the die

But this verse say many body of the saint arose

Is that mean the spirit also in the grave next to their body, or go some where and back to their body when Jesus die.

Some saint are burn by Nero and we do not know If Nero bury their ash and their ash turn to body in the day of ressurection, anything can happen.

Actually, I believe this happens on a sub atomic level, and as matter cannot be created or destroyed (only changed in form), cremation will not be a hindrance to the resurrection.

 

[RickyZ]

I will have to find the time to revisit my thesis and pare it down. There IS a case to be made from scripture. But for now, let me ask this: How could Jesus tell the thief on the cross that "today you will be with me in paradise", when He knew He would spend the next 3 days in Hell?