Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of
heaven.

Which is the same as dis one:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

View attachment 190240 [/QUOTE]
when did that happen?
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
when did that happen?
In the war of 66-70 AD using the Roman armies - just as YHWH had used armies in the past in judgments of a nation.

We see how "clouds" are used in prophetic judgment imagery here:

Jer 4:13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

The reason the high priest lost it in the kangaroo court is not because he admitted to being the son of God but Jesus was threatening them with judgment as YHWH had in the past - he would recognise the "clouds" imagery therefore equating himself with deity.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
In the war of 66-70 AD using the Roman armies - just as YHWH had used armies in the past in judgments of a nation.

We see how "clouds" are used in prophetic judgment imagery here:

Jer 4:13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

The reason the high priest lost it in the kangaroo court is not because he admitted to being the son of God but Jesus was threatening them with judgment as YHWH had in the past - he would recognise the "clouds" imagery therefore equating himself with deity.
Hmmm I’ll have to sleep on that one. 👌
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
Where'd the stragglers go?

Looks like it's just me and thee 16 BigSmile.gif
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
So when do you figure it was?
I’m not saying your wrong but I think it all went down at the resurrection.

I’m gonna look at some of the Old Testament verses and see if they can pinpoint it.

I will say that my views lineup with yours way more than with anyone else’s on this thread.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
7,873
1,571
113
It's not "pre-millennium" as you say because the amillennialist believes we are in the millennium of Rev 20 right now and have been since Christ's first coming all the way until right before His second coming. The amillennialist believes that when Jesus returns He brings the new heavens and new earth not a millennium.

The premillennialist believes the 1,000 years are still future PLUS a new heavens and new earth.

Well not only premillennialist but also the Apostolic fathers up to about Augustine and those of the Jewish faith. You say "the amillenniaslist believes" but as we know Augustine believed the millennial began as you do but would end a thousand years later,after a thousand years it became a symbolic amount of time. I attended three different Churches of Christ from birth to about eighteen. One when I spent summers with my grandparents,the one in the town where I grew up and another in the town I moved to,none of them saw the same things.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
490
97
28
Well not only premillennialist but also the Apostolic fathers up to about Augustine and those of the Jewish faith. You say "the amillenniaslist believes" but as we know Augustine believed the millennial began as you do but would end a thousand years later,after a thousand years it became a symbolic amount of time. I attended three different Churches of Christ from birth to about eighteen. One when I spent summers with my grandparents,the one in the town where I grew up and another in the town I moved to,none of them saw the same things.
I wouldn't say that it would be fair to say "apostolic fathers" up to Augustine. I know you are not saying it explicitly but you seem to be implying that all the apostolic fathers were premillennial.

It is true that Polycarp, Papias, Irenaeus and Justin Martyr were chialists (premills) but there is evidence that many in the church were otherwise.

Justin Martyr in his dialogue with Trypho the Jew in Chapter 80, when defending his chialism, made this statement about other Christians in the church: "that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise."

So we have around 150 A.D. a large group of Christians documented by Justin Martyr that disagreed with a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. We are not told exactly what their views were but many disagreed with the chialists.

Is it possible that amillennialism grew in strength because Christians, who are filled with the Holy Spirit, actually saw this in the Scriptures for themselves? I think so.

Attributing it to Origen and Augustine is a convenient argument for premills to try and make the position look bad. It is an unproven assertion.

I would also say the Jews seeing the millennium on earth is actually a bad thing and not a good thing as you seem to indicate. I find many premills who use this argument against the amill position as if it is a good thing. It's not.

The Jews wanted the kingdom to remain with them but for selfish reasons. They wanted to be exalted above the other nations. They were very self-righteous just like the Pharisees of Jesus' day. They constantly misunderstood OT prophecies because they wanted that place of prominence over the Gentiles.

But Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world." He took the kingdom from the Jews and left their house to them desolate as He said in Matthew 23. He then destroyed them and their nation in A.D. 70 along with their temple. Does that sound like someone who is God's people? No. That is why Jesus said in Revelation "those who call themselves Jews but are a synagogue of Satan".

God's people are people of faith. True "Jews" are the spiritual kind of Romans 2: 28-29.

Does this mean God is done with ethnic Israel? Can't say for sure but according to Romans 11 there may be a mass conversion of them before the end. I am not sure. But the church is God's people now. Not the Jews.

He who has the Son, has the Father also. He who does not have the Son, does not have the Father either. The Jews still don't believe but we can pray for their salvation just like all people.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
490
97
28
I attended three different Churches of Christ from birth to about eighteen. One when I spent summers with my grandparents,the one in the town where I grew up and another in the town I moved to,none of them saw the same things.
That's the nature of biblical prophecy. It is couched in apocalyptic language which makes some portions very difficult to decipher. Should we dismiss amillennialism because there is disagreement on certain passages? Seems like a really bad reason to me. Especially given the nature of apocalyptic texts and the symbolism they are shrouded in.

I would be more wary of a system like premillennialism that says they have everything neatly figured out. Pre-trib rapture, seven year treaty with antichrist, seven years of tribulation, last 3.5 years of great tribulation, second coming with only resurrection of the righteous, thousand year reign of Christ on earth from earthly Jerusalem, Great White Throne judgment for wicked only and finally new heavens and earth. Of course their system fails the test of Scripture and most of these things are false.

There are many prophetic passages in the Bible I don't fully understand or even partially understand. WHAT I DO KNOW FOR SURE IS THE FOLLOWING:

No pre-trib rapture, no seven year treaty between Antichrist and Israel, no 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, both the just and unjust are raised the same day at the Great White Throne judgment.

I am still doing my best to piece together the rest of the prophetic picture. There are other eschatological things I am fairly sure about but can't say 100% like the ones I just listed.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
1,040
113
76
Thats impossible

For one, Titus destroyed the city almost 40 years later

Second. After the city was destroyed. We are told it woudl lay desolate for a period of time to yet be determined, in which their will be war desolations, something that has occured, and is still occuring till this day.

After thise time which will be determined.

The prince, who comes from out of the people who destroyed the city and sanctuary will make a 7 year covenant with many.

In the middle of that week, He commits the abomination which causes desolation. Wich again, will lay desolate. Until the consumation is poured out on the desolate.

Jesus himself mentions this time in Matt 24. Where he says this period wil end with his own personal return to earth. As he puts a stop to the evil that has been rampaging for the last middle of the week.

No matter how you look at it. Jesus died after the 69th week (literally at the end of the 69 week, i=or immediately following) and if the 70th week was immediately started. It woudl have been done 7 years later. Before any of those things occured.
I look at it exactly as its written. It says after 62 weeks the Messiah shall be cut off. How plainer do you need it to be? If the crucifixion happened immediately following the period it would still not occur within the 69 weeks but during the 70th

Christ confirmed the New Covenant. The word confirmed is important because he fulfilled the prophecy of a new Covenant predicted by Jeremiah. His death and shedding of blood made the Temple and Sacrificial system null and void from the moment he died
and the Temple veil was torn in two. The only reason the trappings of the Old Testament system remained in place for 40 years
was to allow that generation of Jews time to repent and believe in Christ as Lord and Messiah and to establish the Church. He predicted its destruction in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Titus and his army were used by the glorified reigning Christ to destroy the Temple and City in the same way the Assyrians were used by God to destroy Israel and the Babylonians were used to destroy Judah
The Temple site and the City became an abomination of desolation and remained desolate for 2000 years.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
490
97
28
I look at it exactly as its written. It says after 62 weeks the Messiah shall be cut off. How plainer do you need it to be? If the crucifixion happened immediately following the period it would still not occur within the 69 weeks but during the 70th

Christ confirmed the New Covenant. The word confirmed is important because he fulfilled the prophecy of a new Covenant predicted by Jeremiah. His death and shedding of blood made the Temple and Sacrificial system null and void from the moment he died
and the Temple veil was torn in two. The only reason the trappings of the Old Testament system remained in place for 40 years
was to allow that generation of Jews time to repent and believe in Christ as Lord and Messiah and to establish the Church. He predicted its destruction in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Titus and his army were used by the glorified reigning Christ to destroy the Temple and City in the same way the Assyrians were used by God to destroy Israel and the Babylonians were used to destroy Judah
The Temple site and the City became an abomination of desolation and remained desolate for 2000 years.
I like you. :)
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,300
1,988
113
Been super busy, and will be for the next few days... but wanted to put this, briefly:

The 69 Weeks were fulfilled on the very day Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the "colt" (and keep in mind that the "70 Weeks" have to do with "are determined upon thy [Daniel's] people, and upon thy [Daniel's] holy city," Dan9:24), see Zech9:9 ["Behold, thy King cometh unto thee..." (thee, Jerusalem)] along with what Jesus said on that very day, here:

Luke 19:41-44 -

"41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round [see Lk21:20], and keep thee in on every side,

44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


So what happened immediately [almost immediately] following the fulfillment of the 69th Wk on [what we call] Palm Sunday was that He was "cut off"... but the 70th Week did not follow immediately, the "but now they are hid from thine eyes" did... (the 70th Week [/7-yrs] is yet future, and is the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" of Rev1:1 [4:1 the future things of that book; STARTING with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL; Matt24:4-8 etc]" to follow on from that first one; also compare Rev1:1 with 7:3).
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Idiotic statement.

You don't know the exactness of the end time events. To proclaim your view as true and another as false doctrine, is not only foolish but, as I said, idiocy. Which of course would make you an idiot.

Quantrill
This is why although I love the topic, I hate discussing it in here. Everyone calling people names and acting like kids and attacking each other, I mean come on people.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
That's the nature of biblical prophecy. It is couched in apocalyptic language which makes some portions very difficult to decipher. Should we dismiss amillennialism because there is disagreement on certain passages? Seems like a really bad reason to me. Especially given the nature of apocalyptic texts and the symbolism they are shrouded in.

I would be more wary of a system like premillennialism that says they have everything neatly figured out. Pre-trib rapture, seven year treaty with antichrist, seven years of tribulation, last 3.5 years of great tribulation, second coming with only resurrection of the righteous, thousand year reign of Christ on earth from earthly Jerusalem, Great White Throne judgment for wicked only and finally new heavens and earth. Of course their system fails the test of Scripture and most of these things are false.

There are many prophetic passages in the Bible I don't fully understand or even partially understand. WHAT I DO KNOW FOR SURE IS THE FOLLOWING:

No pre-trib rapture, no seven year treaty between Antichrist and Israel, no 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, both the just and unjust are raised the same day at the Great White Throne judgment.

I am still doing my best to piece together the rest of the prophetic picture. There are other eschatological things I am fairly sure about but can't say 100% like the ones I just listed.
Lol.. It does? You have not proven it fails. All you do is spout off and attack people saying they are wrong.. I am trying not to judge and place you with many of your brothers, But your making it very hard not to
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Well not only premillennialist but also the Apostolic fathers up to about Augustine and those of the Jewish faith. You say "the amillenniaslist believes" but as we know Augustine believed the millennial began as you do but would end a thousand years later,after a thousand years it became a symbolic amount of time. I attended three different Churches of Christ from birth to about eighteen. One when I spent summers with my grandparents,the one in the town where I grew up and another in the town I moved to,none of them saw the same things.
I bet if you ask 10 people you will get almost 10 different views. And if they are like alot of people in here. They will call each other names. Attack them, and just tell them they are wrong..

And again I say, it is no wonder people look at us the way we do. We hate and attack each other. As true believers in christ (many of us) we do not show the love of God.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I look at it exactly as its written. It says after 62 weeks the Messiah shall be cut off.
Yes, He was. He rode in on a donkey on good friday, signifying the end of the 69th week, Prophesy fulfilled exactly when and as it was prophesied (take this prophesy with Te prophesy of how Messiah will be introduced, lowely and riding on a donkey)

How plainer do you need it to be? If the crucifixion happened immediately following the period it would still not occur within the 69 weeks but during the 70th
I would agree, IF the 70th week occured immediately after the 69th week. If we look at what happens AFTER the 70th week. We see that not to be the case though. Like many prophesies. We look straight on and ASSUME they are all events which occure immediately one right after another. Even Jesus, when reading from the prophet Isaiah 61, where he read about the omming messiah, and the acceptable year of the Lord, Stopped short. Because the day of vengence, although it appears to be the same day, Are as of now at least 2000 years apart.

Christ confirmed the New Covenant. The word confirmed is important because he fulfilled the prophecy of a new Covenant predicted by Jeremiah. His death and shedding of blood made the Temple and Sacrificial system null and void from the moment he died
and the Temple veil was torn in two. The only reason the trappings of the Old Testament system remained in place for 40 years
was to allow that generation of Jews time to repent and believe in Christ as Lord and Messiah and to establish the Church. He predicted its destruction in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Titus and his army were used by the glorified reigning Christ to destroy the Temple and City in the same way the Assyrians were used by God to destroy Israel and the Babylonians were used to destroy Judah
The Temple site and the City became an abomination of desolation and remained desolate for 2000 years.
So let me get this straight Jesus is the prince, He confirmed the new covenant with many for 7 years? And in the middle of the weak. Jesus would commit the abomination of desolation?

(From what I just read, thats how I must think you believe, if I am wrong, please show me what you meant, But you certainly claimed Jesus was the prince who woudl confirm the covenant)

And by the way, The blood of bulls and goats never took away sin. They were a symbol To any jew, and anyone following their religion in Daniels day or christs, Taking away sacrifice and burnt offering can only happen in two ways

1. Destroy the temple (accomplished in ad 70)
2. Abominate the temple with an idol or unclean thing (An abomination whcih makes desolate) Antichus Epiphanes did this during the greek empires reign, and we are tld the prince who is to come will do this himself. And the whole world will see it)

Dan 9 is about God keeping his promise to Israel. David prayed for God to show mercy and that keep his promise. Gabriel came to say his peopple and his city would be given seven weeks of years. Jesus said utside jerusalem. That if they had only known this day (which they should have from all the prophecies concernign that day) but they did not, so now it owuld be hidden from them. The 70 weeks stopped then. Jerusalem had completed her sin, and woudl 40 years later be completely and totally removed from Israel just as God promised in Lev 26, for the first time since Israel was given the land, All inhabitants were completely removed and scattered all over the nations just as God said he woudl do if they did not obey him.

But you know whats amazing, God also said he woudl restor life to the bones, that after this, the flesh would be put back on the dead bones, Life would be given again (a process) and he would take the TWO nations (Israel and Judah) and restor them as one nation again (something that has never happened) After they repent. And he woudl fully give them back their land (never accomplished) and he would be there God again, and THEY WOULD NEVER SIN AGAIN.

The 70 weeks is the time period given for this to occure. The last part of the 70 weeks is the time of Jacobs trouble. Or great tribulation spoken of by Jesus in Matt 24 (also not accomplished, never has ALL LIFE on earth been threatened, and Jesus said he woudl personally end it on his return)

Prophesy must be taken together. They fit like a puzzle. We just have to put the puzzle peaces together. And be careful not to insert our own interpretation and meaning because parts do not fit what we think they should be.

Thats why there are so many personal views of what will happen.. Because we will not just take the word for what it says.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
And far too many they mishandle.
I am not the one spiritualizing things to come. You need that to make it into history.
If the gt and ac already came and went,then rev 14 is history also.
As are the 2 witnesses.

Ironically, history is your enemy.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Yes, He was. He rode in on a donkey on good friday, signifying the end of the 69th week, Prophesy fulfilled exactly when and as it was prophesied (take this prophesy with Te prophesy of how Messiah will be introduced, lowely and riding on a donkey)


I would agree, IF the 70th week occured immediately after the 69th week. If we look at what happens AFTER the 70th week. We see that not to be the case though. Like many prophesies. We look straight on and ASSUME they are all events which occure immediately one right after another. Even Jesus, when reading from the prophet Isaiah 61, where he read about the omming messiah, and the acceptable year of the Lord, Stopped short. Because the day of vengence, although it appears to be the same day, Are as of now at least 2000 years apart.


So let me get this straight Jesus is the prince, He confirmed the new covenant with many for 7 years? And in the middle of the weak. Jesus would commit the abomination of desolation?

(From what I just read, thats how I must think you believe, if I am wrong, please show me what you meant, But you certainly claimed Jesus was the prince who woudl confirm the covenant)

And by the way, The blood of bulls and goats never took away sin. They were a symbol To any jew, and anyone following their religion in Daniels day or christs, Taking away sacrifice and burnt offering can only happen in two ways

1. Destroy the temple (accomplished in ad 70)
2. Abominate the temple with an idol or unclean thing (An abomination whcih makes desolate) Antichus Epiphanes did this during the greek empires reign, and we are tld the prince who is to come will do this himself. And the whole world will see it)


Dan 9 is about God keeping his promise to Israel. David prayed for God to show mercy and that keep his promise. Gabriel came to say his peopple and his city would be given seven weeks of years. Jesus said utside jerusalem. That if they had only known this day (which they should have from all the prophecies concernign that day) but they did not, so now it owuld be hidden from them. The 70 weeks stopped then. Jerusalem had completed her sin, and woudl 40 years later be completely and totally removed from Israel just as God promised in Lev 26, for the first time since Israel was given the land, All inhabitants were completely removed and scattered all over the nations just as God said he woudl do if they did not obey him.

But you know whats amazing, God also said he woudl restor life to the bones, that after this, the flesh would be put back on the dead bones, Life would be given again (a process) and he would take the TWO nations (Israel and Judah) and restor them as one nation again (something that has never happened) After they repent. And he woudl fully give them back their land (never accomplished) and he would be there God again, and THEY WOULD NEVER SIN AGAIN.

The 70 weeks is the time period given for this to occure. The last part of the 70 weeks is the time of Jacobs trouble. Or great tribulation spoken of by Jesus in Matt 24 (also not accomplished, never has ALL LIFE on earth been threatened, and Jesus said he woudl personally end it on his return)

Prophesy must be taken together. They fit like a puzzle. We just have to put the puzzle peaces together. And be careful not to insert our own interpretation and meaning because parts do not fit what we think they should be.

Thats why there are so many personal views of what will happen.. Because we will not just take the word for what it says.
It dawned on me why most EVERYTHING is poo pooed by amils.
Imagine taking a position,betting the farm and then we come along with a bible.
They are supposedly in a millineal that is not a thousand years becaise it has ben almost 2000 years since the supposed mil began.