Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

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Jul 23, 2018
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I bet if you ask 10 people you will get almost 10 different views. And if they are like alot of people in here. They will call each other names. Attack them, and just tell them they are wrong..

And again I say, it is no wonder people look at us the way we do. We hate and attack each other. As true believers in christ (many of us) we do not show the love of God.
One of the reasons invoking church fathers to confirm doctrine is backwards is the re establishment of Israel.
Had they lived to see it,it would have changed everything.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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God's people are people of faith. True "Jews" are the spiritual kind of Romans 2: 28-29.
Sure. Keep reading to the next chapter.

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Replacement theology dumpstered. Next!
 
Nov 23, 2013
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I am not the one spiritualizing things to come. You need that to make it into history.
If the gt and ac already came and went,then rev 14 is history also.
As are the 2 witnesses.

Ironically, history is your enemy.
Mat 10:23 (KJV) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

What is your take on this verse?
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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The Jews wanted the kingdom to remain with them but for selfish reasons. They wanted to be exalted above the other nations.
What made them want that? Messianic kingdom where Israel is exalted above the nations?

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Mat 10:23 (KJV) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

What is your take on this verse?
Taken litterally,it would appear to NOT work for any position.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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I am not the one spiritualizing things to come. You need that to make it into history.
If the gt and ac already came and went,then rev 14 is history also.
As are the 2 witnesses.

Ironically, history is your enemy.
I'm not "spirtualizing" anything - scripture is spiritually discerned.

You need to look at how Jesus spiritually discerned John the Baptist as Elijah

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Did Jesus "spiritulize" Elijah?

History is on my side - 2000 years and no sign of Jesus, the anti-christ, the 2 witnesses. Thinking some fake atheist Jews in Palestine is the restoration of Israel is just without merit.

What the dispensationalists have created is a myth come conspiracy theory. It's sad really.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Sure. Keep reading to the next chapter.

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Replacement theology dumpstered. Next!
There is no such thing as replacement theology, you can't replace something that never existed. The flesh descendants of Israel have never been and never will be the children of God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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There is no such thing as replacement theology, you can't replace something that never existed. The flesh descendants of Israel have never been and never will be the children of God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Quite right when speaking of "replacement" theology according to dispensensationalism - the true replacement theology is replacing the physical nation with the spirtual nation which is what the scripture stated would happen.

The promises to Abraham were intended and indeed were for Christ who created the nation of priests:

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.

1 Pet 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

The children of the flesh were cast out in the 1st century AD:

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

According to dispensationalism and amill "theologies" they are to be cast back in, but they again contradict scripture as usual

Luke 13:28 There shall be there the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth, when ye may see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the reign of God, and yourselves being cast out without.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Taken litterally,it would appear to NOT work for any position.
Jesus left the earth and went to minister to the spirits in hell, then he came back. So every time we see a verse talking about Jesus coming again, it doesn't always mean the second advent at the end of time.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Quite right when speaking of "replacement" theology according to dispensensationalism - the true replacement theology is replacing the physical nation with the spirtual nation which is what the scripture stated would happen.

The promises to Abraham were intended and indeed were for Christ who created the nation of priests:

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.

1 Pet 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

The children of the flesh were cast out in the 1st century AD:

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

According to dispensationalism and amill "theologies" they are to be cast back in, but they again contradict scripture as usual

Luke 13:28 There shall be there the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth, when ye may see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the reign of God, and yourselves being cast out without.
Yes I agree. The Jews were chosen to be the bloodline of the Messiah, the scriptures came through them, basically they were the group that God chose to relate to humanity BUT the flesh descendants were never God's elect or children of the promise.

And you're right, even those things were taken from them in the 1st century.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
It dawned on me why most EVERYTHING is poo pooed by amils.
Imagine taking a position,betting the farm and then we come along with a bible.
They are supposedly in a millineal that is not a thousand years becaise it has ben almost 2000 years since the supposed mil began.
What saddens me more is what we are told by prophecy the earth will be like during those years. And the earth we have lived in for the last 2000 years is the polar opposite of that earth.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
One of the reasons invoking church fathers to confirm doctrine is backwards is the re establishment of Israel.
Had they lived to see it,it would have changed everything.
Imagine having to believe Isreal would be restored when there was no seeming hope of it ever occuring, and them being in jerusalem to even have an opportunity to rebuold a temple (which they are planning as we speak)

It took greater for for those churches than any of our churches today.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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Imagine having to believe Isreal would be restored when there was no seeming hope of it ever occuring, and them being in jerusalem to even have an opportunity to rebuold a temple (which they are planning as we speak)

It took greater for for those churches than any of our churches today.
There were some people in the 1700s who believed all of what we now see as fact what you described.

Granted people probably thought they were crazy back then, but hey, we are living here in that moment!
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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The 69 Weeks were fulfilled on the very day Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the "colt"
You didn't get that from the Bible. You got that from dispensational teachers. Give me one Scripture that says that. There isn't one.

Here is another big problem with your hypothesis that you should consider:

Matthew 2: 15, "Out of Egypt, I called My Son." Matthew applies this to Jesus and is quoting from Hosea 11: 1 which says, "When Israel was a child, I loved Him, and out of Egypt I called My Son."

So Matthew is telling us that Jesus is true Israel. That He IS Israel. Jesus was Jewish when He was here on earth, right?

The prophecy of Daniel 9: 24 says, "Seventy weeks are determined for YOUR PEOPLE..." Jesus was one of Daniel's people. He was a Jew on earth. He is the ultimate Jew. The Messiah. The deliverer of His people. He "atoned for iniquity" just like the prophecy said would happen DURING the 70 weeks.

In your dispensational system, you have the ultimate Jew, Jesus, being crucified OUTSIDE the seventy weeks time frame. In between the 69th and 70th week. You probably didn't catch that so I will say it again.

You believe that Jesus was crucified OUTSIDE the 70 week time frame that God says is specifically for Daniel's people.

You believe Jesus died on Good Friday 5 days after the 69th week ended according to your system. The Scripture refutes you. That puts Jesus OUTSIDE the 70 weeks prophecy because in your system you have broken the 70th week off and put it 2,000 years in the future and counting.

So Jesus "atoned for iniquity" OUTSIDE the seventy weeks. I hope you catch what I'm saying and how serious it is. It completely refutes dispensationalisms interpretation of the 70 weeks prophecy.

The 70th week followed the 69th week. Jesus was crucified in the middle of it just like Daniel 9: 27 says. That is after 69 weeks but still DURING the 70 weeks prophecy.

Even if you want to argue that point, you still have Jesus dying OUTSIDE the 70 week time frame.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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Yes, He was. He rode in on a donkey on good friday, signifying the end of the 69th week, Prophesy fulfilled exactly when and as it was prophesied (take this prophesy with Te prophesy of how Messiah will be introduced, lowely and riding on a donkey)
I just refuted this from Scripture in my post #375 to Watermark. I hope you will read it with an open heart and accept what Scripture says.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
490
97
28
It dawned on me why most EVERYTHING is poo pooed by amils.
Imagine taking a position,betting the farm and then we come along with a bible.
They are supposedly in a millineal that is not a thousand years becaise it has ben almost 2000 years since the supposed mil began.
I already showed from Scripture in post #209 why a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is impossible. You should look at the post. If you think i misinterpreted the Scripture, and actually have an argument from that Scripture where I misread it, please let me know.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You didn't get that from the Bible. You got that from dispensational teachers. Give me one Scripture that says that. There isn't one.

.

Your hurting your own argument man.

1. Daniel is told, at the and (literally immediately following) the 69th week, Messiah the prince will appear.

2. We are told how messiah will come, riding on a donkey, And jerusalem is told to look for this sign.

Zechariah 9:9 [ The Coming King ] “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.

We did not learn that from men, We learned it by SCRIPTURE ITSELF.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I just refuted this from Scripture in my post #375 to Watermark. I hope you will read it with an open heart and accept what Scripture says.
I just refuted post 375, I pray you read it with an open heart, and stop thinking we listen to men.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I already showed from Scripture in post #209 why a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is impossible. You should look at the post. If you think i misinterpreted the Scripture, and actually have an argument from that Scripture where I misread it, please let me know.
You did not prove anything, again yu have to get off this high horse. You gave your opinion of what you think.

You still have not responded to the things I showed which proved the kingdom age (1000 years) has or is happening, Even if you believe it is more or less than 1000 years. We have signs of what should be happening, they have yet to occure.