Predestination or free will?

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shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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I don't think Deut, 11:26-28 has any relevance to predestination. Even a carnal unbeliever can choose to do good or evil, Everyone has a free will until they are saved. then they lose their free will and become slaves of Christ
If that was true, we would no longer sin.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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I don't think Deut, 11:26-28 has any relevance to predestination. Even a carnal unbeliever can choose to do good or evil, Everyone has a free will until they are saved. then they lose their free will and become slaves of Christ
M...,

That is incorrect.

Further, no one is a slave to Christ.

Slave definition;.....

1: a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
2: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence

See the conflict?
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
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If that was true, we would no longer sin.
It is true, we don't sin any loner willfully. We sin passively, and we repent immediately.
We will struggle with this corrupt body of death until we receive our glorified bodies. the main thing is we don't give ourselves over to a life of sin, we at war against sin all the time. The Holy Spirit always gives us victory over all of our sins, so they can't overtake us or consume us.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
460
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It is true, we don't sin any loner willfully.
All of us sin wilfully at times.

We sin passively, and we repent immediately.
What is "sinning passively"? And not everyone does repent immediately.

We will struggle with this corrupt body of death until we receive our glorified bodies.
Yep.

the main thing is we don't give ourselves over to a life of sin, we at war against sin all the time.
Yep.

The Holy Spirit always gives us victory over all of our sins, so they can't overtake us or consume us.
The gift of the Holy Spirit guarantees our salvation. But many Christians struggle with sin in areas of our lives.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
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It is true, we don't sin any loner willfully. We sin passively, and we repent immediately.
We will struggle with this corrupt body of death until we receive our glorified bodies. the main thing is we don't give ourselves over to a life of sin, we at war against sin all the time. The Holy Spirit always gives us victory over all of our sins, so they can't overtake us or consume us.
M...,

A repented person does not.... passively/willfully ....sin.

Yes...unwillingly...on occasion when trapped...which is usually caused by our letting our guard down for a few minutes giving satan a opening.
 

Embankment

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2017
673
184
43
M...,

A repented person does not.... passively/willfully ....sin.

Yes...unwillingly...on occasion when trapped...which is usually caused by our letting our guard down for a few minutes giving satan a opening.
Jesus disagrees,
We all sin and many times justify it. It's in out nature. If we could be perfect then Jesus died for nothin.
Matt 5 has lists of examples, here is a sample.
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,326
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27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
((cuts heart out))

((brain too))
 
C

claysmithr

Guest
A Calvinist dies and goes to Heaven.

He sees two doors. One is labeled free will, and the other is predestination. He walks through the predestination door and an angel asks him why he was here. The Calvanist replies, "I saw this door and decided to walk through it." The angel replies, "You can't be here, you chose this."

Dejected, he goes into the other door. Its angel asks him why he was here.

He replies, "I had no choice"
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
M...,

A repented person does not.... passively/willfully ....sin.

Yes...unwillingly...on occasion when trapped...which is usually caused by our letting our guard down for a few minutes giving satan a opening.
We don't sin occasionally, we sin constantly. That's why we are told to pray always. The flesh never rests, it seeks it's own way all the time so we can't afford to rest either.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
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And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh:
yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Gen 6:3

Predestination: Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned. Job 24:19
Free Will: Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth. Ps 31:5
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,326
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Mockery does not accomplish anything.
The Lord knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.
(Psalm 94:11)
It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man.
(Psalm 118:8)
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Everyone has a free will until they are saved. then they lose their free will and become slaves of Christ
I've never heard anyone put it this way...I think I agree...
You look at your freewill as something that kept you from God.
I've seen other men look at their freewill as something good.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,326
7,447
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I've never heard anyone put it this way...I think I agree...
You look at your freewill as something that kept you from God.
I've seen other men look at their freewill as something good.
i have often thought, that everything i've done according to my own will and choices has been vanity and evil, but everything that God has done in and through me, according to His will and His purpose, has been virtue, and goodness.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:
for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
(Romans 7:18)

the will that is present in me that wills what is right is not from me, but from Him.
in that sense my free will only gets me in trouble, but His predestination saves: Saul became Paul, and when he did, it was no longer Saul/Paul who lives, but Christ dwelling in him. Saul acted '
freely' according to Saul's will. Paul over and over described himself as a bondservant ((yes, "slave" is a fully justifiable translation)) of Christ.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,326
7,447
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A Calvinist dies and goes to Heaven.

He sees two doors. One is labeled free will, and the other is predestination. He walks through the predestination door and an angel asks him why he was here. The Calvanist replies, "I saw this door and decided to walk through it." The angel replies, "You can't be here, you chose this."

Dejected, he goes into the other door. Its angel asks him why he was here.

He replies, "I had no choice"
an Arminian dies and then decides not to go to hell.
purgatory is where Arminians who haven't made up their minds yet hang out.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,326
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((cuts heart out))
((brain too))

Mockery does not accomplish anything.
how would you describe the exchanging of the heart of stone for one of flesh ((Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26, Jeremiah 24:7 etc)) and the renewal of the mind ((Romans 12:2, 2 Corinthians 4:16, Ephesians 4:23 etc)) ?

you think that's mockery?
i think you spoke before you thought.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I've seen other men look at their freewill as something good.
i think i see an overwhelming number of people look at their freewill as absolutely sacrosanct, as though the #1 absolute truth about which all other truths must revolve.
so much so that they are willing to conform their understanding of the nature of God if it conflicts with their freewill, but they are not willing to conform their understanding of their own free agency if it conflicts with the sovereignty of their Creator.

we are quicker to let go of the idea that God is over all things than the idea that man is master of his own destiny.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,123
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I don't think Deut, 11:26-28 has any relevance to predestination. Even a carnal unbeliever can choose to do good or evil, Everyone has a free will until they are saved. then they lose their free will and become slaves of Christ
I actually half agree with this, but feel we are slave one way or the other. Either we are slaves of sin, or slaves of Christ.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I actually half agree with this, but feel we are slave one way or the other. Either we are slaves of sin, or slaves of Christ.
Then the question becomes: are you a slave of Christ because you chose Him with your freewill?
Or are you a slave of Christ because He first drew you, healed your blindness, planted a seed of faith inside you, and gave you the Holy Spirit to finish the good work He began in you?