Predestination or free will?

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Mar 23, 2016
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#81
Actually, will, like all other character traits that man possesses, is a shared conditionality with God. They are part of our identity with God. We are created in his image and after his likeness and every characteristic we have is a reflection of the nature of God. The difference is that we possess these character traits within limited parameters, God does not.
I believe Adam was created in the image and likeness of God.

Adam’s descendants are begotten in the likeness and image of Adam in his fallen state (Gen 5:3).

The only characteristic we have which reflects the nature of God is that which we receive when we are born again.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#82
I believe Adam was created in the image and likeness of God.

Adam’s descendants are begotten in the likeness and image of Adam in his fallen state (Gen 5:3).

The only characteristic we have which reflects the nature of God is that which we receive when we are born again.
Not so. Name a human characteristic trait of the mind or heart that God does not possess. These are not the product of time or human experience. These are qualities that originate in the nature of God and were placed into the human mind from the very beginning. This does not mean these character traits cannot be corrupted. This is the lesson of the garden. Being born of God means these character traits have been reassigned by the individual to the will and pleasure of God rather than devoted to sin.
 

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
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#84
If God created everything then by logical extension he creates sin. If God did not create sin or free will then these were created by something or someone other than God or they continually pop randomly into existence from nonexistence.
Isaiah 45
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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#85
Everyone has free will, but I believe God predestined certain people for a specific purpose. The apostle Paul is a good example of that, he was busy persecuting Christians, but the Lord turned him around to take the gospel to the Gentles..
D.....,

Do you mean to spin this a bit?;

"specific purpose"...is different than predetermining for .....eternal salvation....the topic here.
 

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
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#86
I believe there is one faith (Eph 4:5). We have the same faith as those shown in Hebrews 11.
There are many faiths in practice in the world. The one faith of Christians is that of faith in the savior Jesus Christ. Anyone who practices any other faith is not practicing the faith of Christianity.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#87
That's true. But:
Selfishness. We are born selfish, and must work to overcome it.
Selfishness, lust, and jealousy would come under the heading of covetousness; this is indeed a character trait we share with God. You have to understand that it is not a sin to covet. A man can covet and be selfish over his own wife and that is good and honorable. He is not permitted to share her with another man. However, when he begins to covet his neighbor's wife then covetousness is perverted and becomes sin. It is not a sin to lust but, when a man lusts after another woman he has no right to, then lust becomes sin. We can covet and be jealous over those things we have a right to; we can lust after those things that are rightfully ours and this is good and right. How many times has God told us in scripture "I am a jealous God." Sin is not a character trait. Sin is a perversion of character that affects the entire range of human nature.
 

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
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#88
OOH, good question, Mary Magdaline was from a place called Magdala, (I don't know how to spell it) and Luke was a Greek, jesus and the rest of the original 12 were Jews I believe. The Jews who believed in the prophecy of the coming messiah his crucifixion and his resurection I believe were saved by faith at Calvary. The ones who thought the Christ would be like King David and rescue them from the Romans by military force and rebellion, those who shouted "Crucify him" and Judas the traitor probably will be judged like any other sinner. That's what I believe. calibob
I think Judas gets a really bad rap. If it wasn't for his doing what Jesus told him to do and after partaking of what is the first communion, how else would Jesus have fulfilled God's grace filled mission to die on the cross so as to take the sins of the world upon himself there? And as such become the last sacrifice for sins as the perfect unblemished lamb and so as to bring the new covenant to the world?

When Jesus was on that cross he asked that all who were there jeering him and screaming for his suffering be forgiven. Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
Jesus forgave the thief that asked him to remember him when he came into his kingdom. That thief on that day was with Christ in paradise due to his faith. Likely , he had heard Jesus preach during his travels. I think also that that blanket forgiveness Christ beckoned for from the Father also covered Judas. Without him, Jesus would not have otherwise accomplished God's will for the world.
 

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
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#89
That's true. But:
Selfishness. We are born selfish, and must work to overcome it.
Would you consider it selfish to accept a spiritual teaching that assures we shall live forever in glory?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#90
Selfishness, lust, and jealousy would come under the heading of covetousness; this is indeed a character trait we share with God. You have to understand that it is not a sin to covet. A man can covet and be selfish over his own wife and that is good and honorable. He is not permitted to share her with another man. However, when he begins to covet his neighbor's wife then covetousness is perverted and becomes sin. It is not a sin to lust but, when a man lusts after another woman he has no right to, then lust becomes sin. We can covet and be jealous over those things we have a right to; we can lust after those things that are rightfully ours and this is good and right. How many times has God told us in scripture "I am a jealous God." Sin is not a character trait. Sin is a perversion of character that affects the entire range of human nature.
My point was that people are born selfish, and not in a godly way. Watch a couple of 2 year olds fighting over a toy. It comes "naturally". That is not godly coveting. They have to be taught and trained to overcome it.

Also, can you show me a scripture where "lust" is ever referred to in a positive way?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#93
Actually, it is a worded question.
Thanks anyway. :)
OK.. I'll answer your question:
Would you consider it selfish to accept a spiritual teaching that assures we shall live forever in glory?
No, it is not selfish to accept salvation offered by God.

I guess what threw me is I don't see how this pertains to people being born selfish.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#94
My point was that people are born selfish, and not in a godly way. Watch a couple of 2 year olds fighting over a toy. It comes "naturally". That is not godly coveting. They have to be taught and trained to overcome it.
Also, can you show me a scripture where "lust" is ever referred to in a positive way?
I apologize for taking so long to respond but I am busy with other things so sometimes it may be a while before I can get back to you.
As to your first statement, it is true that children must be trained to govern shellfish tendencies but, being selfishness is not in itself a sin. God is selfish over his people. He refuses to share his people and their worship with other gods.

As to your question, yes, there are many examples of the word lust being used in a positive way. The word for lust is the word ἐπιθυμία which is translated as desire, passion, lust, longing, etc. For example:
In Philippians 1:23, Paul says, "I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire (ἐπιθυμία) to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better...."
In Luke 22:15, Jesus told his disciples, "I have earnestly desired (ἐπιθυμία) to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;"
There are many such examples of this use of ἐπιθυμία in scripture but, I think these will suffice. There are also many examples of the word used in the negative which demonstrates not that lust is in itself evil but, that it is the perversion of lust that is evil. One such example would be 1John 2:16, "For all that is in the world—the desires (ἐπιθυμία) of the flesh and the desires (ἐπιθυμία) of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world."
 
Mar 23, 2016
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#95
Not so. Name a human characteristic trait of the mind or heart that God does not possess. These are not the product of time or human experience. These are qualities that originate in the nature of God and were placed into the human mind from the very beginning. This does not mean these character traits cannot be corrupted. This is the lesson of the garden. Being born of God means these character traits have been reassigned by the individual to the will and pleasure of God rather than devoted to sin.
I understand your point. My point is that what is inherent in natural man (Adam's progeny) is so far below what God intended.

Example: The happiness we experience is fleeting and is wholly dependent upon temporary circumstances. On the other hand, the fruit of the Spirit joy is constant and can be present in the midst of adversity. Fruit of the Spirit is produced in the born again believer ... not in natural man.

Even the "works" we do as natural men (which appear "good") are not those good works which God hath before ordained we should walk in (Eph 2:10).
 
Mar 23, 2016
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#96
There are many faiths in practice in the world. The one faith of Christians is that of faith in the savior Jesus Christ. Anyone who practices any other faith is not practicing the faith of Christianity.
I believe there is only one faith. The object of faith differs, but the faith is the same. That is why it is imperative that our faith be in God. When faith is placed in anything other than God, the result is catastrophic.
 

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
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#97
I believe there is only one faith. The object of faith differs, but the faith is the same. That is why it is imperative that our faith be in God. When faith is placed in anything other than God, the result is catastrophic.
You're a Universalist then?
Because there is no such thing as one faith.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#98
You're a Universalist then?
Because there is no such thing as one faith.
"There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." Eph. 4:4-6
 

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
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#99
"There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." Eph. 4:4-6
I'm aware of the verse thank you. However, that was not the context in which I read reneweddaybyday's postings to date. Thank you for posting it though. :)
 
Mar 23, 2016
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You're a Universalist then?
Because there is no such thing as one faith.
The issue is not "faith". Rom 12:3 tells us God has given the measure of faith to every man. The issue is "in what" do we place our faith. If our faith is founded upon Truth, then our faith grows strong.

If, on the other hand, we sincerely place our faith in something not True, our faith remains weak and that could cost us our life.

As oldhermit pointed out, there is one faith (Eph 4:5).