predestination vs freewill
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Look...
""""Whom God foreknew ...he also predestined to be : conformed to the image of his Son"""""
Ok , let me show you what this verse is teaching.
First , notice that the verse does not say anything about the foreknowledge of being born again, or BECOMING a Christian.
What it describes is the "conforming", to the "image of His Son". that God "foreknew".
So, right away we note that the verse is talking about who has already been born again, as you can't be involved in the spiritual process of being conformed into the image of Christ, unless you are born again, first.
Notice now.....Those who God foreknew........that would be every person, ever born , as God foreknows everything.
For example what you are wearing today,:?????? as God foreknow you would wear it on this day, before you were born.
Does that mean He caused you to wear it? No it does not.
The "foreknowledge" of God, is God's ability and miraculous omnipotent capacity to know all things BEFORE they Happen.
So, where does the HERESY, that is hyper calvinism show up?
Right here.......in the word = FOREKNOWLEDGE.
What the hyper calvinist does, it reinvent the definition of this word., and that produces the heresy of....."some are chosen to be saved and some are not".
What the hyper Calvinist does is redefine the word foreknowledge into....>"God caused it".
See that?
The heretic changes the definition of the word "foreknowledge", ..which means....>"God knows everything before it happens".......into this new definition of "foreknowledge"....= "God causes it all to happen".
And RIGHT THERE, the deception that is the heresy of the "predestined elect", is born.
These deceived people teach that "foreknowledge" is God causing everything, instead of God knowing everything before it happen.
See that?
That's their theological poison EXPOSED and EXPLAINED.
So, these heretics then apply this wrong definition to words like....>"born again"......and errors like this just create their theological heresy to become darker and darker and more anti-Cross and Grace Denying.
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Do not get me wrong... I believe in the need of the system of faith. Since faith and believing are pretty much interchangeable terms - faith is believing and believing is faith - they are an important component in Salvation. However, my point here is that Justification of the Elect is not dependent upon our faith. Romans 3:21-31, is the revelation of God's faith in His purpose and His Son's completed work.
Does God have faith? Of course He does. He established the concept and ability in His Created beings. In Roman's 3:25:
whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;
The term "through faith", goes back to the Noun - Theos - God. The verse is saying, God through faith, in the shed blood of Jesus Christ - could pass over the sins of the OT Saints before the actual event took place in history. This comes as no shock to the ones who believe in the Doctrines of Election and Predestination. We are used to the concept of things being completed from Eternity, even before the foundation of the world.
Paul was beginning the argument of "faith" from it's source - God. He goes on to the "system of faith" in Rom.3:28
Rom 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
This Justification is not by anything the believer does or does not do, but is through the "system of faith" established by God and comes directly from God's faith. This is the beautiful answer, to how God could impute righteousness to the OT Saints even before Christ's first advent. God being Sovereign over His creation and being the one and only god, what would stop His purpose or His faith in it.
Paul, having established the understanding of God's Justification of the Elect and this system of faith, then moves to it's application, in Romans 4. That through this system of faith, Abraham was considered Righteous.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
Abraham was already a believer, was he not? We know what must take place before a fallen man can believe God. Being foreknown, being predestinated, being called and being Justified. All past tense verbs - Abraham, like all of the Elect, was already Justified, taking us back to Romans 3. Abraham experienced the "New Birth" at the appointed time and heard the Lord and believed the Lord and His Truth. Therefore, believing the Lord was an act of righteousness. But his act of righteousness could no more save him than it could save us.
Does God have faith? Of course He does. He established the concept and ability in His Created beings. In Roman's 3:25:
whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;
The term "through faith", goes back to the Noun - Theos - God. The verse is saying, God through faith, in the shed blood of Jesus Christ - could pass over the sins of the OT Saints before the actual event took place in history. This comes as no shock to the ones who believe in the Doctrines of Election and Predestination. We are used to the concept of things being completed from Eternity, even before the foundation of the world.
Paul was beginning the argument of "faith" from it's source - God. He goes on to the "system of faith" in Rom.3:28
Rom 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
This Justification is not by anything the believer does or does not do, but is through the "system of faith" established by God and comes directly from God's faith. This is the beautiful answer, to how God could impute righteousness to the OT Saints even before Christ's first advent. God being Sovereign over His creation and being the one and only god, what would stop His purpose or His faith in it.
Paul, having established the understanding of God's Justification of the Elect and this system of faith, then moves to it's application, in Romans 4. That through this system of faith, Abraham was considered Righteous.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
Abraham was already a believer, was he not? We know what must take place before a fallen man can believe God. Being foreknown, being predestinated, being called and being Justified. All past tense verbs - Abraham, like all of the Elect, was already Justified, taking us back to Romans 3. Abraham experienced the "New Birth" at the appointed time and heard the Lord and believed the Lord and His Truth. Therefore, believing the Lord was an act of righteousness. But his act of righteousness could no more save him than it could save us.
God does not 'predestine" any one to be born again.
You, like all Calvinists, have been taught that "foreknowledge" means..."God causes it all", and the word actually means, "God KNOWS it all before it happens".
Also, the only "work" necessary for salvation, is for God as Christ to Die on the Cross, then be resurrected.
A.) Mission accomplished 2000 yrs ago.
See John 3:16,17 for the update.
Im more about what translations i wont touch.
We can start with the NIV.
As for my own teaching..
I dont use commentaries.
All i use are 2 bible "promise" books, and a Messianic "Golden Verses", that is similar to a bible promise book.
When i was seminary trained i used many versions.
When i was taught manuscript evidence i used many sources.
We can start with the NIV.
As for my own teaching..
I dont use commentaries.
All i use are 2 bible "promise" books, and a Messianic "Golden Verses", that is similar to a bible promise book.
When i was seminary trained i used many versions.
When i was taught manuscript evidence i used many sources.
Is it that you think grace is given to everyone? According to Paul, grace itself unconditionally brings salvation to all who receive it. So, if your point is that grace is given to all, then by your definition, everyone must also become saved. Obviously, that interpretation cannot be correct, because we know that not everyone becomes saved.
[[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:,
Did you notice the "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" part of the verse ? Those who didn't obey, didn't obey BECAUSE they were unable to hear the word of God. They couldn't hear because spiritual hearing wasn't given to them.
Those who heard, heard, only because it was given them, and from that, obeyed. What constitutes obeying I won't attempt to delve into right now although it would be an interesting topic.
[Rom 11:8 KJV]
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
[Eph 1:18 KJV]
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
[Eph 4:17-21 KJV]
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:[/QUOTE]
How can someone "obey" without having eyes that can see and ears that can hear, and a heart that perceives, spiritually speaking?
Can someone even know how to obey, or what was needed for obeying without them?
[Rom 11:8 KJV]
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Again, only those who were given ears to hear, hear, as a part of becoming saved, and by having become saved, then obey.
[Jhn 3:3 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
No. Being born again must occur first and cannot happen by anything that we may do. We cannot "see" the kingdom of God" until and unless being born again, and therefore, until then, impossible to obey the Gospel
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[[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:,
Did you notice the "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" part of the verse ? Those who didn't obey, didn't obey BECAUSE they were unable to hear the word of God. They couldn't hear because spiritual hearing wasn't given to them.
Those who heard, heard, only because it was given them, and from that, obeyed. What constitutes obeying I won't attempt to delve into right now although it would be an interesting topic.
[Rom 11:8 KJV]
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
[Eph 1:18 KJV]
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
[Eph 4:17-21 KJV]
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:[/QUOTE]
How can someone "obey" without having eyes that can see and ears that can hear, and a heart that perceives, spiritually speaking?
Can someone even know how to obey, or what was needed for obeying without them?
[Rom 11:8 KJV]
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Again, only those who were given ears to hear, hear, as a part of becoming saved, and by having become saved, then obey.
[Jhn 3:3 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
No. Being born again must occur first and cannot happen by anything that we may do. We cannot "see" the kingdom of God" until and unless being born again, and therefore, until then, impossible to obey the Gospel
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That's probably the 1st edition Nestle's
and im not sure what you mean by the "variant" readings of the KJV.
The 1st Nestle's is basically the Textus Receptus.
Tne recent isn't.
It seems that the Nestle's group became infected with "why we hate the KJV", about 30 yrs ago, obo, and so, they messed up the good product and created a messy follow up.
Some people really get caught up in the "we hate the KJV cult" and this causes them to make a lot of mistakes.
and im not sure what you mean by the "variant" readings of the KJV.
The 1st Nestle's is basically the Textus Receptus.
Tne recent isn't.
It seems that the Nestle's group became infected with "why we hate the KJV", about 30 yrs ago, obo, and so, they messed up the good product and created a messy follow up.
Some people really get caught up in the "we hate the KJV cult" and this causes them to make a lot of mistakes.
There is no doubt that a person can not come to Christ, unless the Holy Spirit "draws them". and they hear the Gospel, and "faith comes by hearing".........and they BELIEVE.
The Holy Spirit is the truth and conviction of God that deals with a sinner's conscience and mind.
Yet, this calling to humanity, is always in Progress.......as this...= Jesus said..."If i be lifted up i will DRAW all men to me"..
So, that is 2000 yrs in a row, every day, every second, happening, to ALL.
Where the heresy comes in, is teaching that God causes only some to hear the Holy Spirit, and does not allow others to hear.
So, that defies Jesus's words, of ......"ALL men, will be drawn".
The heresy is the teaching that God causes some to not be saved, and saves only those he foreknew.., as this is a rewriting of the verses, and its a redefining of the word "foreknow".
To simply state it........the heretic doctrine teaches that God knowing a thing before it happens is God causing it to happen.
Thats the heresy of the "pre-destined elect" blasphemy.
The Holy Spirit is the truth and conviction of God that deals with a sinner's conscience and mind.
Yet, this calling to humanity, is always in Progress.......as this...= Jesus said..."If i be lifted up i will DRAW all men to me"..
So, that is 2000 yrs in a row, every day, every second, happening, to ALL.
Where the heresy comes in, is teaching that God causes only some to hear the Holy Spirit, and does not allow others to hear.
So, that defies Jesus's words, of ......"ALL men, will be drawn".
The heresy is the teaching that God causes some to not be saved, and saves only those he foreknew.., as this is a rewriting of the verses, and its a redefining of the word "foreknow".
To simply state it........the heretic doctrine teaches that God knowing a thing before it happens is God causing it to happen.
Thats the heresy of the "pre-destined elect" blasphemy.
How then do you interpret these verses?
[Eph 1:4-5, 7 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ...
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
[Jhn 3:3 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
So you believe that everyone becomes saved?
[Eph 1:4-5, 7 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ...
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
[Jhn 3:3 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
So you believe that everyone becomes saved?
From a humanistic point of view I would agree with you. However, if one is being led by the Spirit - that one maybe given the tools necessary to accomplish God's purpose.
Personally, I believe that those who have gone to Seminaries or have had some form of religious education are most likely tainted with their liberal, subjective views. Additionally, if one has taken a classical Greek course, this knowledge can damage ones ability to handle the Koine Greek properly.
Personally, I believe that those who have gone to Seminaries or have had some form of religious education are most likely tainted with their liberal, subjective views. Additionally, if one has taken a classical Greek course, this knowledge can damage ones ability to handle the Koine Greek properly.
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Why would anyone want to translate Greek, into Latin, then from Latin into English?
This is like unwinding your clock to try to reset the time to unwind it.
47 Translaters and similar worked on the original KJV.
It was "revised", in that the spelling of some words were updated, tho no words were removed or verses changed.
Italics were used to show where the translators inserted a word for the sake of clarity.
This is like unwinding your clock to try to reset the time to unwind it.
47 Translaters and similar worked on the original KJV.
It was "revised", in that the spelling of some words were updated, tho no words were removed or verses changed.
Italics were used to show where the translators inserted a word for the sake of clarity.
If you are being led of the Spirit, you wont be trying to correct a bible with a greek text.
In fact, God will lead you away from a "dead language", and towards the english version,... as in God's foreknowledge He knew that the letters that were written by the Apostles, would be translated eventually into English, in the "time of the Gentiles".
Its amazing what God knows before it happens.....
See.... English is the universal language that is taught in every country in this world. Its the world currency of Language that is universal, and no other language is this... and God knew this would happen, (foreknowledge) and that is why the English BIBLE is the word of God, and the Greek Text is the dead language that needs to be kept in seminaries and away from liars who can't read it, and yet pretend they can teach it.
Know any?
I do....
You will find more of these in PULPITS then on christian forums.........
And while you are seeking to be led of God, He will lead you to understand that there is no such thing as the "original Greek", text.
There are only copies of copies of copies of copies.........and a few very old manuscripts, but never a full text.
The only "originals" were the apostles LETTERS and they were gone 1900 yrs ago.
