predestination vs freewill

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OIC1965

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Yup agree-- that's what I think too
It is clear from other related texts that Jesus was speaking of moral inabilitywhen He said no one is able to come unless drawn. . For example, “why do you not believe me, even because you cannot hear my words” and “ how can you believe which seek honor from one another and not the honor that comes from God,etc…”
 

rogerg

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t is clear from other related texts that Jesus was speaking of moral inability. For example, “why do you not believe me, even because you cannot hear my words” and “ how can you believe which seek honor from one another and not the honor
Sorry, you have more technical understanding than I do, so I don't quite understand the phrase "moral inability" in this context?
 
Feb 16, 2017
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Christ was/is God, God the Father was/is God, the Holy Spirit was/is God.

I think you might have moved from the original point to something else

Let me try it like this...


In the days when Christ was in the world 2000 yrs ago, walking around with the 12......>he was never in Russia or Texas.
So, if there were people there, then, would they have been drawn to Him, having no idea he exists?

Also, if Christ is on the Cross, and has died for the sin of the world, and then the Holy Spirit in in the world "reproving the WORLD of sin", then would this effect the "world"?
 

rogerg

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In the days when Christ was in the world...>he was never in Russia or Texas.
So, if there were people there, then, would they have been drawn to Him, having no idea he exists?
Yes, they would have been drawn if God had chosen to draw them. Were it based upon man, then no, but it wasn't/isn't it is based upon God

[Mat 19:25-26 KJV] 25 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Also, if Christ is on the Cross, and has died for the sin of the world, and then the Holy Spirit in in the world "reproving the WORLD of sin", then would this effect the "world"?
I don't understand your question.
 

Icedaisey

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Pre-destined Elect heretics always like to pretend that all their family is the "elect".
Have you noticed this, icedaisey ??????

Thats the beauty of their self deception......... which is that......none of the people they care about are born to burn in the lake of fire.

But YOU reader, its 50/50 for you and your family... at best,...... but for these heretics and their family.... the MIRACLE is, ... everyone of them is the "elect".

So, this theological vomit came right out of the Devil's mind, and into the Denomination that he created to teach this theologically depraved trash.
Vomit?
Scripture is vomit?
 

Icedaisey

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So God couldn't draw anyone to Christ before the cross?

"men" is a symbolic word used sometimes in the Bible by God to denote those saved, or those to become saved, whereas, beasts represents the unsaved - comparing the spiritual with spiritual

[1Co 15:32 KJV] 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
Were people saved before the cross?
 

OIC1965

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Sorry, you have more technical understanding than I do, so I don't quite understand the phrase "moral inability" in this context?
Inability due to the sin in their heart, ie what they loved, desired, held dearest, etc.

For example, atheism is not an intellectual disagreement, it is a moral suppressing of the truth. Likewise, The failure to come to Christ is not merely a physical inability or an intellectual inability ( sometimes not understanding is part of it, but only one part), but a moral inability. They are unable to come because they are too in bondage to their sins, which they often love.

There has to be a Spirit wrought work that has an effect on the natural inclinations of man before He WANTS to truly come to Christ

Though there are superficial instances of coming to Christ. For example, the crowds came to Jesus in John 6 because they sought loaves. So He could rightly say that those individuals had not actually come to Him in the sense that He was using the words.
 

rogerg

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Were people saved before the cross?
Think so.

[Luk 7:49-50 KJV]
49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
 

awelight

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Jesus explained the meaning of this parable to these pharasees! The only thing they didn't understand was "which of these things they were"
Jesus explained the meaning of this parable to these pharasees! The only thing they didn't understand was "which of these things they were".

Really? there are plenty of times God does something because a man chose to do something.

“I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will multiply your descendants like the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore..."


No, it wouldn't, because even though we choose to listen to god, nobody deserved to be called by him in the first place. Nobody ever sought out god without him doing something first and we are all worthy of destruction for that.
In your replies - please answer the following:

1) When did Christ explain to the Pharisees what John 10 was about? Please give Scripture to prove your point.
- a) The Scripture is clear on this matter - Jesus spoke in parables because the message was for His own - it was not for the world of
---- the non-elect. God often hid things from the non-elect world and Jesus Christ even thanked His Father for it:

Luke 10:21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: yea, Father; for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight.

Again, we see the separation Christ places between the Elect and the world in His High Priestly prayer of John 17:

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine:

2) God was declaring blessing upon Abraham for following His commands. Abraham was indeed willing to offer up his son, if his Lord required it. The problem in your understanding here, is this: Abraham was already a believer and had already received God's unmerited favor. All believers are blessed in their lives when they keep the commandments of the Lord. All believers miss out on blessings when they do not.

3) I need to break this one down a bit.

You said:
No, it wouldn't, because even though we choose to listen to god, nobody deserved to be called by him in the first place. Nobody ever sought out god without him doing something first and we are all worthy of destruction for that


a) You stated at first, "though we choose to listen to God, nobody deserved to be called in the first place." I whole heartedly agree with the second part. Nobody "deserved" salvation. That's why it is called "unmerited Grace". However, as to the first part, "though we choose to listen to God" - When did we choose? Before or after God did something towards us? I say - AFTER - He has done a work of Grace in us and that work of Grace is the "new birth" of John 3:3-10. Then and only then, can one "move" towards Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

b) The last part of the above response, you agreed with me and my previous post. You stated: " ..Nobody ever sought out god without him doing something first..." This was exactly the point I was making in the original post. God is actionary not reactionary. His choice was a Sovereign Election of those He chose to show "Mercy and Compassion" too. This before the foundation of the world. Just as everyone who God chose for redemption was written in the Lamb's Book of Life", before the foundation of the world.

Then at God's appointed time... The Holy Spirit comes to the elect sinner - who at that time, is still dead in trespasses and sin - and quickens (regenerates) that elect sinner. Now having been regenerated, then and only then, that individual hears the Gospel message with a new heart and is convicted by it's message. This message points to Jesus Christ as the only way out.
 
Feb 16, 2017
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Vomit?
Scripture is vomit?
No, Scripture is alive.
The "vomit" is a pre-destined elect heretic, who believes that all his family has to be the elect, yet, that does not apply to everyone else....does it?
You see it, right?
Sure you do.

So, this type of cut and paste theological puke, is an offense to God, as its a Satanic theology that spits on the Cross of Christ, and denies the Grace of God.
 

rogerg

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For example, atheism is not an intellectual disagreement, it is a moral suppressing of the truth. The failure to come to Christ is not merely a physical inability or an intellectual inability ( sometimes not understanding is part of it, but only one part), but a moral inability. They are unable to come because they are too in bondage to their sins, which they often love.

There has to be a Spirit wrought work that has an effect on the natural inclinations of man before He WANTS to truly come to Christ

Though there are superficial instances of coming to Christ. For example, the crowds came to Jesus in John 6 because they sought loaves. So He could rightly say that those individuals had not actually come to Him in the sense that He was using the words.
If I understand you correctly, my belief is rather a simple one (since I'm not bright enough to make it complicated), to me it comes down to this: God saves whom He wants, when He wants, with nothing contributed to the transaction by us.
I would use Saul (Paul) for an example. How would you assess Saul's condition an instant prior to his encounter with Christ?
 
Feb 16, 2017
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Think so.

[Luk 7:49-50 KJV]
49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
yet these same have no Holy spirit in them yet.
This is why Jesus would tell them...>"go and sin no more, lest a worst thing come on you".
So that is Christ teaching WORKS....."under the Law".. which is not what is taught after Christ is Crucified., because the born again, are "not under the law, but under Grace".

Paul's gospel is not...>"go and sin no more".....is it?
No.
Paul's gospel is..."Shall be saved".....If you believe.....which is Faith based Justification "without works"
 

OIC1965

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If I understand you correctly, my belief is rather a simple one (since I'm not bright enough to make it complicated), to me it comes down to this: God saves whom He wants, when He wants, with nothing contributed to the transaction by us.
I would use Saul (Paul) for an example. How would you assess Saul's condition an instant prior to his encounter with Christ?
It doesn’t matter what his condition was an instant prior. What matters is what effect his encounter with Christ had on him the instant he heard “ I am Jesus…”

He hated Jesus before that moment. And His hardened heart was changed the moment He heard those words.
 

rogerg

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t doesn’t matter what his condition was an instant prior. What matters is what effect his encounter with Christ had on him the instant he heard “ I am Jesus…”
My perception (and I haven't look at this in the Bible for a while), is that his encounter with Christ IS when Saul became saved/born again - which is when he "heard" - the two were synonymous I think ( again, if I understand your point correctly)
 

OIC1965

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My perception (and I haven't look at this in the Bible for a while), is that his encounter with Christ IS when Saul became saved/born again - which is when he "heard" - the two were synonymous I think ( again, if I understand your point correctly)
You’re reading too much into what I said. In my earlier post, I gave scriptures to argue for moral inability. I think that you must believe in moral inability, because any other kind of inability that does not include this aspect would mean that it is possible for a person to truly repent and believe and truly come to Christ yet have God reject them.

God rejects none who come to Jesus. Yet A person cannot come to Christ apart from a supernatural work of Grace because it is not in their nature to do so.
 

awelight

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Not sure what/how you mean by free will, but no one can come to, and believe in, Christ unless it was FIRST given specifically to them
by God the Father

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
As to the subject of the "free will" (I am no longer responding to Kidron's posts). but wanted to remind you of something he was trying to get at.

He was comparing our "will" to that of Adam's. This shows a lack of understanding in the foundational base of the Bible's message.

Adam was created in an "upright" condition. Since Adam was upright before God and communed with God, there was no sin in him. Therefore Adam's "will" was indeed "free". However, after the fall in sin, this "original" uprightness was lost. For the rest of Human history, mankind's "will" is in "bondage" to sin. We know the solution for this bondage problem.

So Adam's "will" or "ability" can NEVER be equated with man's fallen state. He has lost that freedom and ability until God does something for him.

Didn't mean to butt in but thought you might be interested in my thoughts on this. Keep up the Good Fight. I fear however, the discussion with Kidron has just become circular.
 

OIC1965

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God can't draw anyone to the Cross, if Christ is not on it yet.

Im talking about this verse......>"If I be lifted up, I will draw all me to ME".

That's Christ on the Cross dying for ALL.

If you want to discuss something else, we can.
You decide that.
Im good.
Does the cross draw everyone or is it either foolishness or a stumbling block to those who are perishing.

People react to the cross the same way or worse as how people responded to Jesus in John 6.

The reason why the cross is the power of God and not foolishness or a stumblinblock to those who believe. God gets ALL the Glory for that, not us.
 

rogerg

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As to the subject of the "free will" (I am no longer responding to Kidron's posts). but wanted to remind you of something he was trying to get at.
Thank you, awelight. Appreciate the heads-up and will keep it in mind. I agree with you that Adam had a truly free will, because he
was created with one by God
 

rogerg

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You’re reading too much into what I said. In my earlier post, I gave scriptures to argue for moral inability. I think that you must believe in moral inability, because any other kind of inability that does not include this aspect would mean that it is possible for a person to truly repent and believe and truly come to Christ yet have God reject them.

God rejects none who come to Jesus. Yet A person cannot come to Christ apart from a supernatural work of Grace because it is not in their nature to do so.
Would spiritual inability fit?
 

awelight

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My perception (and I haven't look at this in the Bible for a while), is that his encounter with Christ IS when Saul became saved/born again - which is when he "heard" - the two were synonymous I think ( again, if I understand your point correctly)
Hey butting in again.

I don't think one should try to pin down "when" the new birth takes place. It is by it's nature, a supernatural event wrought out by God. No one can know for sure, how far in advance this birth takes place of one hearing the message and beginning their conversion experiences. Some think it might be days, some think it might be nanoseconds before a genuine conversion begins.

What we do know about Saul is, he hated the church and Jesus Christ. But at the moment Christ came upon him, Saul called him "Lord". Was Saul prepared beforehand by the new birth like Lydia?

Acts_16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, one that worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord had opened to give heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul.

Or - in Saul's case, was it instantaneous with his meeting the power and Glory of the Lord. After all, the Second Person of the Godhead is quite capable of quickening an individual. There is no way to be sure. What we do know - it was private. Those traveling with him, did not hear are understand what was happening.