Predestination
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I'm not going to go back and forth about that with you..... You must of read that Adam and eve was made sinless. Besides Jesus, they were the only 2 ppl on earth who had a season of their life without sin... But, suffer it to say, you have a skill for picking out parts of the Word to suit you argument...I suppose their might be times for that skill to be used. But be careful, lest you get consumed by it.....God bless
calvin's name is like pavlov's bell.
calvin's name is like pavlov's bell.
and Jesus made it clearer than that Doc.
John 10
The Unbelief of the Jews
22Then came the Feast of Dedicationb at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,c tell us plainly.”
25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than alld; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand 30I and the Father are one
31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
i know i didn't make a decision.
i know i was manouvered into a place i could receive the life giving spirit through the power of the Gospel.
i like your analogy Doc because that describes exactly how it went (for me). dragged to safety and given CPR (a new heart).
the ONLY thing i had before that was a sin, broken heart, depression, and fear (for a good reason it turns out)
because they only know that single verse. never got around to reading WHO IS SPEAKING, AND TO WHOM IS HE SPEAKING?
who is this letter written to?
2 Peter 1
Greeting
1Simeona Peter, a servantb and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
Make Your Calling and Election Sure
3His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us toc his own glory and excellence,d 4by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,e and virtue with knowledge, 6and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8For if these qualitiesf are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10Therefore, brothers,g be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
who is Peter speaking to?
calvin's name is like pavlov's bell.
and Jesus made it clearer than that Doc.
John 10
The Unbelief of the Jews
22Then came the Feast of Dedicationb at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,c tell us plainly.”
25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than alld; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand 30I and the Father are one
31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
i know i didn't make a decision.
i know i was manouvered into a place i could receive the life giving spirit through the power of the Gospel.
i like your analogy Doc because that describes exactly how it went (for me). dragged to safety and given CPR (a new heart).
the ONLY thing i had before that was a sin, broken heart, depression, and fear (for a good reason it turns out)
because they only know that single verse. never got around to reading WHO IS SPEAKING, AND TO WHOM IS HE SPEAKING?
who is this letter written to?
2 Peter 1
Greeting
1Simeona Peter, a servantb and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
Make Your Calling and Election Sure
3His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us toc his own glory and excellence,d 4by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,e and virtue with knowledge, 6and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8For if these qualitiesf are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10Therefore, brothers,g be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
who is Peter speaking to?
(by free will)
C
A dry run? Not at all. God exists outside of mankind's limited perspective of time. He saw it all from the very beginning and put everything in place needed to accomplish his purposes. Genesis 3:14-15 is a great example. Although we have free will, there is nothing you or I can do to spoil his overall plans. It was finished before it ever started.
sounds nice.
but His plans appear to be based soley on our decisions.
He "saw it all"? saw what exactly? righteous men making a decision for God without His intervention?
man has free will to make decisions within his darkened, fallen nature: being separated from God by sin, will any of man's decisions be good in God's eyes?
free will? to do what exactly? fall further into depravity? Arminians and free will advocates don't believe in depravity, in fallen man who is darkness, dead in trespasses and sins.
or bootstrap it out of depravity? to what end? anything good whatsoever in God's sight?
what's man gonna do about that SIN PROBLEM?
people can't even find a scriptural position to defend their concept of FREEWILL.
know why?
THE CONCEPT DOESN'T EXIST IN SCRIPTURE.
Romans 9
God’s Sovereign Choice
1I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,a my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,
~
people impose the IDOLATRY of a sovereign libertarian man (whose decisions apparently were the foundation for ALL CREATION) onto the scriptures BECAUSE IT IS A BYPRODUCT OF THE FALLEN NATURE TO insist upon a Just and Righteous God on the one hand, but one Who will not interfere with man's sovereign will to cause anything at all to come to pass.
no clue what religion that is, but it's not CHRISTIANITY and that is Not THE I AM.
11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
~
i confess that:
Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature ... God's grace in Christ is not merely necessary but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. We confess that human beings are born spiritually dead and are incapable even of cooperating with regenerating grace. We reaffirm that in salvation we are rescued from God's wrath by his grace alone. It is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life. We deny that salvation is in any sense a human work. Human methods, techniques or strategies by themselves cannot accomplish this transformation. Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human nature. - Cambridge Declaration
but His plans appear to be based soley on our decisions.
He "saw it all"? saw what exactly? righteous men making a decision for God without His intervention?
man has free will to make decisions within his darkened, fallen nature: being separated from God by sin, will any of man's decisions be good in God's eyes?
free will? to do what exactly? fall further into depravity? Arminians and free will advocates don't believe in depravity, in fallen man who is darkness, dead in trespasses and sins.
or bootstrap it out of depravity? to what end? anything good whatsoever in God's sight?
what's man gonna do about that SIN PROBLEM?
people can't even find a scriptural position to defend their concept of FREEWILL.
know why?
THE CONCEPT DOESN'T EXIST IN SCRIPTURE.
Romans 9
God’s Sovereign Choice
1I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,a my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,
~
people impose the IDOLATRY of a sovereign libertarian man (whose decisions apparently were the foundation for ALL CREATION) onto the scriptures BECAUSE IT IS A BYPRODUCT OF THE FALLEN NATURE TO insist upon a Just and Righteous God on the one hand, but one Who will not interfere with man's sovereign will to cause anything at all to come to pass.
no clue what religion that is, but it's not CHRISTIANITY and that is Not THE I AM.
11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
~
i confess that:
Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature ... God's grace in Christ is not merely necessary but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. We confess that human beings are born spiritually dead and are incapable even of cooperating with regenerating grace. We reaffirm that in salvation we are rescued from God's wrath by his grace alone. It is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life. We deny that salvation is in any sense a human work. Human methods, techniques or strategies by themselves cannot accomplish this transformation. Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human nature. - Cambridge Declaration
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J
"He saw it all from the very beginning "
If he saw it from the beginning and knew the end, how could the end turn out to be anything different?
If there is no possibility of a different end, I submit to you that we do not have the Libertarian Free Will required for the ability to change the intended outcome.
If he saw it from the beginning and knew the end, how could the end turn out to be anything different?
If there is no possibility of a different end, I submit to you that we do not have the Libertarian Free Will required for the ability to change the intended outcome.
J
I don't know much about Mr. Edwards.
EDIT:
After a quick wiki search...
" Edwards's theological work is very broad in scope, but he is often associated with his defense of Reformed theology, the metaphysics of theological determinism, and the Puritan heritage."
I feel as though he and I would agree on much.
EDIT:
After a quick wiki search...
" Edwards's theological work is very broad in scope, but he is often associated with his defense of Reformed theology, the metaphysics of theological determinism, and the Puritan heritage."
I feel as though he and I would agree on much.
C
All of this attention over one little word... saw. If it had not been made obvious earlier that I was not a cessationist, you would have not have even taken notice of that one little word and would have applauded my views on predestination seeing as note one word contradicts scripture concerning predestination.
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Ya like.....this reminds me of the Terminator Paradox.
"Sarah Connor is going to give birth to a son named John, and that Son is going to be the successful leader of a human resistance against the machines. Fine. So the machines send a Terminator back in time to kill her before that happens. The human resistance (on the verge of victory anyway) sends back Kyle Reese, who impregnates Sarah, who then gives birth to a boy she names John."
"Sarah Connor is going to give birth to a son named John, and that Son is going to be the successful leader of a human resistance against the machines. Fine. So the machines send a Terminator back in time to kill her before that happens. The human resistance (on the verge of victory anyway) sends back Kyle Reese, who impregnates Sarah, who then gives birth to a boy she names John."
AMEN.
Isaiah 10:15
Shall the axe boast over him who hews with it, or the saw magnify itself against him who wields it? As if a rod should wield him who lifts it, or as if a staff should lift him who is not wood!
Isaiah 29:16
You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?
Romans 9:20
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
Romans 9:21
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Isaiah 10:15
Shall the axe boast over him who hews with it, or the saw magnify itself against him who wields it? As if a rod should wield him who lifts it, or as if a staff should lift him who is not wood!
Isaiah 29:16
You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?
Romans 9:20
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
Romans 9:21
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
J
Depends on which form of Free Will we are discussing.
Libertarian Free Will (which says we can change our desires) would not be capable under the doctrine of Total Depravity.
The only free will we have, is the choice by which we prefer to pursue our desires.
So for example, a sinner only has free will in the manner that a sinner can chose how to fulfill their sinful desires. Will it be adultery, or gluttony?
Libertarian Free Will (which says we can change our desires) would not be capable under the doctrine of Total Depravity.
The only free will we have, is the choice by which we prefer to pursue our desires.
So for example, a sinner only has free will in the manner that a sinner can chose how to fulfill their sinful desires. Will it be adultery, or gluttony?