Predestination

[Strangelove]

So your admitting you make stuff up to make your doctrines believable to you? At least your honest! Because they sure would not help anyone else believe the way you do.

The further our doctrines drift apart the more dishonesty creeps into your posts.

Drag equals forced. Why are you refusing to admit someone who is dragged somewhere is taken by force? If one is going where they want to go. you would not have to drag them. you would lead them. or direct them and they would willingly follow.

Dude....the word is FIGURATIVE. When was the last time you saw someone being dragged by God?

We are SINNERS. God drags us to Him with irresistable LOVE. He TEARS us away from our old life BECAUSE WE WANT TO GO WITH HIM having seen His GLory in Jesus Christ.

It is sickening that YOU want to take a part of that Glory for yourself by saying that you had a part in your salvation.

Give all glory to God where it belongs.

So your saying I can fall in love with no influence at all?? That is called lust my friend. And even lust takes some influence to draw someone in (beauty)

No influence? Huh? Where did I say that? You keep putting things in peoples mouths. Your like a dentist.

Of Course God influences you to love Him. Thats what we're saying!

DUH!

What is great is in the eye of the beholder. What I see as Great ,might not be great for someone else. Jesus is great. But not everyone sees him this way. if they did. NO ONE WOULD REJECT HIM.

Again, who said everyone see's Jesus as great? You build strawman after strawman. Soon you will have army of them ready to wage war against the pesky army of flints.

Those who see Him are sheep. Vessels of mercy.

Those who dont are vessels of wrath.

God decides NOT YOU oh man. Who are YOU oh man!!?

See above

You STILL didnt answer. Here it is AGAIN:

You would never make a decision NOT to continue the falling in love process if the object of your life is so GREAT!

We are talking about YOU not anyone else.

So would you agree or not. YOU EG YOU...would YOU who's eyes have been opened to the glory and majesty of the Lord Jesus Christ ever turn your back on Him? I dont want to know about other people whom you have no idea on their heart condition I'm askin' YOU!

No I can't. drag means forced. I did not come to love someone or see how "great they are" without being drawn to them. Something they had brought be to them, and influenced my decision to fall for them. You rejecting the pre-phase.

Bad English. Doesnt even make sense. And seems to be highly contradictory. You seem to admit here that you were drawn to the one you love. Same as God ya? What are we debating exactly then?

We are dragged, drawn, led to Christ. Is it just semantics your arguing? For the sake of bashing calvinism? Oh boy.

It is only irrelevant in your mind. Because you have to have it irreverent. Because if it is not your doctrine falls on its face.

Romans 1 proves this. Everyone can see the beauty of God and his creation. We even know his law, even if we never read it. His law is written in our hearts. Yet people chose to reject this knowledge, this thing which draws them to god. So that no one has an excuse. According to calvanism. they have an excuse. Because God kept it from them and did not allow them to see it.

I'm sorry what? Are you somehow trying to blame the biblical doctrine of predestination and assurance on erm.....giving some an "excuse" for rejecting Jesus?

Like....HUH?

WHY do they need an EXCUSE? Lolz!

By the way,,,knowing right from wrong does not EQUAL 'seeing the beauty of God'. No siree.....not even close. Romans 1 doesnt support your position in the slightest. Romans is written to (shock horror) Romans and also greeks who knew of the one true God, they had an aquaintance with Him but that doesnt mean they were Gods sheep. The whole chapter is talking about those who have an idea of God but who get lost in their philosophies (very popular with the heathens).

They had man made philosophies and God left them to it. GOD DECIDES.

you seen the divorce rate lately? Of all these people who were in love, but no longer love.

Why do you always have to make it about other people? I'm asking YOU.

Would YOU have NOT loved the person you love? Thats all I'm asking you?

An answer would be nice, on a personal level.

why? so you can be puffed up?? Again. many people fall out of love. Not only with a spouse. but with God. try another example. this one stinks!

We havnt fleshed this example out yet because you refuse to answer.

And are you GOD who knows who has fallen in and out of love with HIM?

Who is PUFFED UP NOW?

 

[Strangelove]

Bullcarp. It is absolutely something we choose to do. Read it. See the word "IF"?

I'm gonna flip a coin. IF its heads you buy me dinner. IF its tails I'll wash your car.

Do we CHOOSE if the coin lands heads or tails...or does it just happen?

Exactly backwards. You receive God's gift when you confess and believe.
Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Why is that relevant? God GIVES US our faith!

(Romans 12:3) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Choice has everything to do with it.

Could you have chosen NOT to love Jesus after seeing what a DUDE He is?

I'm talking about YOU, the Shroomster.

"Love means never having to say you're sorry".

...

We do good works out of love, but love does not make us do anything.

Oh, you with the FORCING angle as well?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The further our doctrines drift apart the more dishonesty creeps into your posts.

dishonesty? You did not deny it now did you. Since you did not deny it I asumed you were admiting it. Maybe if you would not make up stuff which does not make sense. there would be no question of honesty or anything else.

Dude....the word is FIGURATIVE. When was the last time you saw someone being dragged by God?

Dude, do you not know what a figurative word is? It is using a KNOWN WORD to explain a spiritual truth. You would not use the word drag figuratively unless you mean DRAG.

We are SINNERS. God drags us to Him with irresistable LOVE. He TEARS us away from our old life BECAUSE WE WANT TO GO WITH HIM having seen His GLory in Jesus Christ.

ἕλκω (and in later writ. ἑλκύω also [Veitch s. v.; W. 86 (82)]); impf. εἷλκον (Acts 21:30); fut. ἑλκύσω [ἐλκ. Rec.elz Jn. 12:32]; 1 aor. εἵλκυσα ([inf. (Jn. 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, -κῦσαι Rst G Tr]; cf. Bttm. Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii. p. 171; Krüger § 40 s. v.; [Lob. Paralip. p. 35 sq.; Veitch s. v.]); fr. Hom. down; Sept. for מָשַׁךְ; to draw;
1. prop.: τὸ δίκτυον, Jn. 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, Jn. 18:10 (Soph. Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινά, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, Jas. 2:6 (πρὸς τὸν δῆμον, Arstph. eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caes. b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4) cum trinis catenis vinctus traheretur, Liv. 2, 27 cum a lictoribus Jam traheretur).
2. metaph. to draw by inward power, lead, impel: Jn. 6:44 (so in Grk. also; as ἐπιθυμίας … ἑλκούσης ἐπὶ ἡδονάς, Plat. Phaedr. p. 238 a.; ὑπὸ τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Acl. h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11). trahit sua quemque voluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, Jn. 12:32. Cf. Mey. on Jn. 6:44; [Trench § xxi. COMP.: ἐξ-έλκω.]*


Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (204–205). New York: Harper & Brothers.

Why use the word drag then? God did not drag me anywhere. He drew by inward power, he lead me bu his love, his promises and his work to where I needed to be, he did not have to DRAG me, He won me over by his love. I willingly followed him. BUT I HAD TO CHOSE TO FOLLOW.

It is sickening that YOU want to take a part of that Glory for yourself by saying that you had a part in your salvation.

No what is sickening is that you think God forces us to chose him, and forces those whome he does not chose to NOT chose him.

I do give God the glory. My faith is not in MY WORK. It is in THE WORK OF GOD. I GET NO CREDIT.

Give all glory to God where it belongs.

I do. But I don't make God a dictator. I make him a loving father. Who though his love and leading drew me to him. If He did not. I would have nothing to trust in.

No influence? Huh? Where did I say that? You keep putting things in peoples mouths. Your like a dentist.

Of Course God influences you to love Him. Thats what we're saying!

DUH!

NO ITS NOT. Your saying HE DRAGS YOU. YOU DO NOT DRAG A WILLING PERSON>

Again, who said everyone see's Jesus as great? You build strawman after strawman. Soon you will have army of them ready to wage war against the pesky army of flints.

Hey, I am just using your example. Not everyone will see the person I love as attractive. Like I said use a different example. your example stinks. I know many calvanists that use MUCH MUCH better examples and figuratives than what your using.

Those who see Him are sheep. Vessels of mercy.

Those who dont are vessels of wrath.

God decides NOT YOU oh man. Who are YOU oh man!!?

Those who see or don't see. is it not a free will choice to see??

You STILL didnt answer. Here it is AGAIN:

And again you will not get a direct answer. YOUR QUESTION SUCKS!! and DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR THEORY!

You would never make a decision NOT to continue the falling in love process if the object of your life is so GREAT!

Thats interesting. I think of girl I knew in HS at my church who I loved, and she continued to draw me. but I did not pursue her because I was afraid of rejection. I know MANY MANY people who have done the same thing

Oh how little you know..

We are talking about YOU not anyone else.

Why did the prodigal son leave the love and blessings of his father? Why do men leave the love of their wives for a sexual encounter with someone who could never give them what their wife has?? Next??

So would you agree or not. YOU EG YOU...would YOU who's eyes have been opened to the glory and majesty of the Lord Jesus Christ ever turn your back on Him? I dont want to know about other people whom you have no idea on their heart condition I'm askin' YOU!

I DID FOR 5 YEARS! God had to take me to my knees to bring him back to him.

Don't you think when you come up with this stuff??

Bad English. Doesnt even make sense. And seems to be highly contradictory. You seem to admit here that you were drawn to the one you love. Same as God ya? What are we debating exactly then?

I was not DRAGGED.

We are dragged, drawn, led to Christ. Is it just semantics your arguing? For the sake of bashing calvinism? Oh boy.

CALVANISM SAYS I AM DRAGGED. And those who do not come to Christ ARE NOT EVEN GIVEN AN OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE ANYWAY. Unless your a hyper calvanist, this is what you believe. I have been here done that with to many calvanists. who teach regeneration happens BEFORE FAITH.

I'm sorry what? Are you somehow trying to blame the biblical doctrine of predestination and assurance on erm.....giving some an "excuse" for rejecting Jesus?

what does predestination have to do with assurance? My assurance is based on what Christ did. not what I did. My faith comes and Goes. I have even left God for 5 years. But I never doubted my assurance. My assurance is based on Christ and HIS Promise. Not on me! Person who rejects Christ either does not believe in this assurance, or does not think he needs it. HE STILL MADE A FREE WILL DECISION TO REJECT

Like....HUH?

WHY do they need an EXCUSE? Lolz!

By the way,,,knowing right from wrong does not EQUAL 'seeing the beauty of God'. No siree.....not even close. Romans 1 doesnt support your position in the slightest. Romans is written to (shock horror) Romans and also greeks who knew of the one true God, they had an aquaintance with Him but that doesnt mean they were Gods sheep. The whole chapter is talking about those who have an idea of God but who get lost in their philosophies (very popular with the heathens).

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Your argument is with God and Paul. Not me!

They had man made philosophies and God left them to it. GOD DECIDES.

Yep God did. BECAUSE GOD DOES NOT FORCE ANYONE AGAINST THERE FREE WILL

 

[shroom2]

I'm gonna flip a coin. IF its heads you buy me dinner. IF its tails I'll wash your car.

Do we CHOOSE if the coin lands heads or tails...or does it just happen?

You're grasping at straws and you know it. YOU CHOSE to flip the coin. The coin WILL land on either heads or tails, but only because you chose to flip it. Also, the coin does not have a will. It was not created in the image of God, with the ability to think and make decisions. We were.

God made salvation available to all, He is drawing all. But because He created man in His image, we have the capacity to say no.

Why is that relevant? God GIVES US our faith!

(Romans 12:3) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

God "deals" you your faith when you act on Romans 10:9.

Could you have chosen NOT to love Jesus after seeing what a DUDE He is?

I'm talking about YOU, the Shroomster.

Yes, I could have. In fact I did walk away for several years. But I'm back.

Oh, you with the FORCING angle as well?

If it's as you say, and you cannot resist, it's the same as forcing.

 

[CND]

Just as the sea does not fit in the pool, predestination does not enter completely in the understanding of the earthly man.

 

[serpentslayer]

I'm a hyper-super-Calvinist.

I believe Christians were predestined to be saved before the foundations of the Earth and even before God knew it, and they will be, regardless of Gods willpower.

What? Predestined before God predestines you? Ridiculous and STRANGE.

 

[Strangelove]

dishonesty? You did not deny it now did you. Since you did not deny it I asumed you were admiting it. Maybe if you would not make up stuff which does not make sense. there would be no question of honesty or anything else.

Oh dear.

Dude, do you not know what a figurative word is? It is using a KNOWN WORD to explain a spiritual truth. You would not use the word drag figuratively unless you mean DRAG.

Huh? are you saying I believe we are physically dragged by God? Like...huh?

Semantics.

If someone is injured on a battlefield and theyre buddy dragged them to safety is it FORCED or AGAINST THEIR WILL?

It's just a word man...and its a greek word anyway.

The way your argument relies so heavily on semantics just shows its weakness.

WHO CARES what word is used? I still dont believe we are FORCED against our will to love God. The very idea is absurd.

It is irressistable LOVE because we want it so much.

It baffles me how you dont get this.

ἕλκω (and in later writ. ἑλκύω also [Veitch s. v.; W. 86 (82)]); impf. εἷλκον (Acts 21:30); fut. ἑλκύσω [ἐλκ. Rec.elz Jn. 12:32]; 1 aor. εἵλκυσα ([inf. (Jn. 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, -κῦσαι Rst G Tr]; cf. Bttm. Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii. p. 171; Krüger § 40 s. v.; [Lob. Paralip. p. 35 sq.; Veitch s. v.]); fr. Hom. down; Sept. for מָשַׁךְ; to draw;
1. prop.: τὸ δίκτυον, Jn. 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, Jn. 18:10 (Soph. Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινά, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, Jas. 2:6 (πρὸς τὸν δῆμον, Arstph. eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caes. b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4) cum trinis catenis vinctus traheretur, Liv. 2, 27 cum a lictoribus Jam traheretur).
2. metaph. to draw by inward power, lead, impel: Jn. 6:44 (so in Grk. also; as ἐπιθυμίας … ἑλκούσης ἐπὶ ἡδονάς, Plat. Phaedr. p. 238 a.; ὑπὸ τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Acl. h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11). trahit sua quemque voluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, Jn. 12:32. Cf. Mey. on Jn. 6:44; [Trench § xxi. COMP.: ἐξ-έλκω.]*


Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (204–205). New York: Harper & Brothers.

Why use the word drag then? God did not drag me anywhere. He drew by inward power, he lead me bu his love, his promises and his work to where I needed to be, he did not have to DRAG me, He won me over by his love. I willingly followed him. BUT I HAD TO CHOSE TO FOLLOW.

OK! Use whatever word you want. It's still Gods power that does 'IT 'and if He does 'IT' you WILL come to Him out of your own freewill. He DOMINATES your freewill. Dont you think God effects your freewill?

Your entire semantic argument is a giant strawman.

No what is sickening is that you think God forces us to chose him, and forces those whome he does not chose to NOT chose him.

Why do you keep lying and using the word FORCE?

Those whom He gives understanding and faith come to Him out of they're own free will. Every single time.

Those whom He does NOT give these gifts DONT, out of their own freewill.

Stop using the strawman...its boring.

I do give God the glory. My faith is not in MY WORK. It is in THE WORK OF GOD. I GET NO CREDIT.

But you get the credit for making correct decisions right?

I do. But I don't make God a dictator. I make him a loving father. Who though his love and leading drew me to him. If He did not. I would have nothing to trust in.

Dictator = Strawman.

Semantics = Strawman.

NO ITS NOT. Your saying HE DRAGS YOU. YOU DO NOT DRAG A WILLING PERSON>

Semantics = strawman.

God dragged, drew, impelled me...rescued me....dragged me out of the world...like I was injured...dead in my sins. the choice by the KJV writers to use the word drag is perfectly reasonable. Notwithstanding the spurious objections from nitpicky Calvinist HATERS.

It all means the same thing.

Hey, I am just using your example. Not everyone will see the person I love as attractive. Like I said use a different example. your example stinks. I know many calvanists that use MUCH MUCH better examples and figuratives than what your using.

You want me to use a different example cuz you have no answer to this one. Again you talk of OTHER PEOPLE when I am asking YOU.

Those who see or don't see. is it not a free will choice to see??

YES it is!!!

Is our freewill influenced by God?

Dominated by Him in fact?

And again you will not get a direct answer. YOUR QUESTION SUCKS!! and DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR THEORY!

Coz you cant answer.

Thats interesting. I think of girl I knew in HS at my church who I loved, and she continued to draw me. but I did not pursue her because I was afraid of rejection. I know MANY MANY people who have done the same thing

Oh how little you know..

You didnt pursue her BUT YOU STILL LOVED HER!!

You didnt stop loving her did you? Just coz you fealt fear?

Why did the prodigal son leave the love and blessings of his father? Why do men leave the love of their wives for a sexual encounter with someone who could never give them what their wife has?? Next??

Probably coz they lacked TRUE LOVE. And you keep making this about other people when I'm asking about you.

Ducking diving dodging.

I DID FOR 5 YEARS! God had to take me to my knees to bring him back to him.

Don't you think when you come up with this stuff??

OK! thanks for finally answering. So you took a break.

Did you know exactly the same truths about God before you took the break and after?

Even if you did...you DIDNT turn your back on God. you came back.

You are just proving my point.

I was not DRAGGED.

Semantics = Strawman.

No one is saying we are forced against our will. Its just a word, one of many words that could be used to translate the greek. Take yer pick. It's still God who does 'IT' and those who 'IT' happens to WILL come to Him because of true irresistable LOVE.

CALVANISM SAYS I AM DRAGGED. And those who do not come to Christ ARE NOT EVEN GIVEN AN OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE ANYWAY. Unless your a hyper calvanist, this is what you believe. I have been here done that with to many calvanists. who teach regeneration happens BEFORE FAITH.

I dont care what calvinism teaches. I'm not calvinist. Lets stick to what I'm teaching. The free will coming to God of His sheep because of irressistable love for Jesus.

what does predestination have to do with assurance? My assurance is based on what Christ did. not what I did. My faith comes and Goes. I have even left God for 5 years. But I never doubted my assurance. My assurance is based on Christ and HIS Promise. Not on me! Person who rejects Christ either does not believe in this assurance, or does not think he needs it. HE STILL MADE A FREE WILL DECISION TO REJECT

Pedestination = assurance

**yawn** yes its free will. No one has denied free will. Boooooooring.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Your argument is with God and Paul. Not me!

You didnt respond to my points about the scripture you posted.

Here it is again. I'd appreciate a reply. Or you could concede you were wrong.

By the way,,,knowing right from wrong does not EQUAL 'seeing the beauty of God'. No siree.....not even close. Romans 1 doesnt support your position in the slightest. Romans is written to (shock horror) Romans and also greeks who knew of the one true God, they had an aquaintance with Him but that doesnt mean they were Gods sheep. The whole chapter is talking about those who have an idea of God but who get lost in their philosophies (very popular with the heathens).

Yep God did. BECAUSE GOD DOES NOT FORCE ANYONE AGAINST THERE FREE WILL

No one said He did. Not one of us.

STRAWMAN.

 

[Strangelove]

You're grasping at straws and you know it. YOU CHOSE to flip the coin. The coin WILL land on either heads or tails, but only because you chose to flip it. Also, the coin does not have a will. It was not created in the image of God, with the ability to think and make decisions. We were.

God made salvation available to all, He is drawing all. But because He created man in His image, we have the capacity to say no.



God "deals" you your faith when you act on Romans 10:9.


Yes, I could have. In fact I did walk away for several years. But I'm back.


If it's as you say, and you cannot resist, it's the same as forcing.

Shroom...would anyone who God gave understanding and truly poured out His spirit on resist His love?

WOULD they?

Forget about FORCE.....WOULD THEY? Did you? Would anyone?

I dont think you answered that question.

 

[Strangelove]

Just as the sea does not fit in the pool, predestination does not enter completely in the understanding of the earthly man.

Whats that verse about the natural man understandeth not the things of the spirit?

Just so happens the guy arguing against this basic Christian doctrine is waiting for carnal earthly fulfillments of long ago completed prophecy.

 

[Strangelove]

What? Predestined before God predestines you? Ridiculous and STRANGE.

Oh boy.

Activate humor mode plz.

 

[shroom2]

Shroom...would anyone who God gave understanding and truly poured out His spirit on resist His love?

WOULD they?

Forget about FORCE.....WOULD THEY? Did you? Would anyone?

I dont think you answered that question.

God "truly" gives holy spirit to people who act on Romans 10:9.

Yes, they could resist. And some do. Read the parable of the sower. Matt 13

 

[Strangelove]

God "truly" gives holy spirit to people who act on Romans 10:9.

So basically, when all is said and done....your point is that YOU deserve some credit for 'acting' on Romans 10:9? right?

Yes, they could resist. And some do. Read the parable of the sower. Matt 13

Post the relevant verses if you think it supports your position.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh dear.



Huh? are you saying I believe we are physically dragged by God? Like...huh?

Semantics.

If someone is injured on a battlefield and theyre buddy dragged them to safety is it FORCED or AGAINST THEIR WILL?

It's just a word man...and its a greek word anyway.

The way your argument relies so heavily on semantics just shows its weakness.

WHO CARES what word is used? I still dont believe we are FORCED against our will to love God. The very idea is absurd.

It is irressistable LOVE because we want it so much.

It baffles me how you dont get this.



OK! Use whatever word you want. It's still Gods power that does 'IT 'and if He does 'IT' you WILL come to Him out of your own freewill. He DOMINATES your freewill. Dont you think God effects your freewill?

Your entire semantic argument is a giant strawman.



Why do you keep lying and using the word FORCE?

Those whom He gives understanding and faith come to Him out of they're own free will. Every single time.

Those whom He does NOT give these gifts DONT, out of their own freewill.

Stop using the strawman...its boring.



But you get the credit for making correct decisions right?



Dictator = Strawman.

Semantics = Strawman.



Semantics = strawman.

God dragged, drew, impelled me...rescued me....dragged me out of the world...like I was injured...dead in my sins. the choice by the KJV writers to use the word drag is perfectly reasonable. Notwithstanding the spurious objections from nitpicky Calvinist HATERS.

It all means the same thing.



You want me to use a different example cuz you have no answer to this one. Again you talk of OTHER PEOPLE when I am asking YOU.



YES it is!!!

Is our freewill influenced by God?

Dominated by Him in fact?



Coz you cant answer.



You didnt pursue her BUT YOU STILL LOVED HER!!

You didnt stop loving her did you? Just coz you fealt fear?



Probably coz they lacked TRUE LOVE. And you keep making this about other people when I'm asking about you.

Ducking diving dodging.



OK! thanks for finally answering. So you took a break.

Did you know exactly the same truths about God before you took the break and after?

Even if you did...you DIDNT turn your back on God. you came back.

You are just proving my point.



Semantics = Strawman.

No one is saying we are forced against our will. Its just a word, one of many words that could be used to translate the greek. Take yer pick. It's still God who does 'IT' and those who 'IT' happens to WILL come to Him because of true irresistable LOVE.



I dont care what calvinism teaches. I'm not calvinist. Lets stick to what I'm teaching. The free will coming to God of His sheep because of irressistable love for Jesus.



Pedestination = assurance

**yawn** yes its free will. No one has denied free will. Boooooooring.



You didnt respond to my points about the scripture you posted.

Here it is again. I'd appreciate a reply. Or you could concede you were wrong.

By the way,,,knowing right from wrong does not EQUAL 'seeing the beauty of God'. No siree.....not even close. Romans 1 doesnt support your position in the slightest. Romans is written to (shock horror) Romans and also greeks who knew of the one true God, they had an aquaintance with Him but that doesnt mean they were Gods sheep. The whole chapter is talking about those who have an idea of God but who get lost in their philosophies (very popular with the heathens).



No one said He did. Not one of us.

STRAWMAN.

Your not calvanist? Then why the heck are we having this debate? Do you hate me so much you just wish to make everything I say sound off??

Dude you have serious issues!

PS. A true calvanist DOES THING GOD DRAGGED THEM AGAINST THEIR FREE WILL. Calvanist does NOT BELIEVE IN FREE WILL. That is what I was arguing.

Again your word use would be better served if you did not use the word DRAG. And your example still sux!

 

[Strangelove]

Your not calvanist? Then why the heck are we having this debate? Do you hate me so much you just wish to make everything I say sound off??

Dude you have serious issues!

PS. A true calvanist DOES THING GOD DRAGGED THEM AGAINST THEIR FREE WILL. Calvanist does NOT BELIEVE IN FREE WILL. That is what I was arguing.

Again your word use would be better served if you did not use the word DRAG. And your example still sux!

See this is exactly the kind of ignorant denominationism that people who hold errors in their doctrines absolutely cling to.

Why does it matter what kind of denomination I tag myself with?

We are debating a DOCTRINE. That doctrine is PREDESTINATION.

Christians are PREDESTINATED to salvation. It matters not what we do, or think or act on or believe before God fills us with His love in the shape of faith and understanding...when He does we WILL come to Him.....because of WHAT HE DID FOR US and because He chose us before the foundations of the world and not because we chose Him. We WILL choose Him no matter what IF He chooses us. God does not fail in His commision EVER.

Now, you either agree with that or you dont.

Whats it to be?

Please answer the question without injecting your fallacious strawmen regarding FORCE, CALVINISM, DRAG, FREEWILL or anything else into your answer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

See this is exactly the kind of ignorant denominationism that people who hold errors in their doctrines absolutely cling to.

Why does it matter what kind of denomination I tag myself with?

No this is what happens when one hates someone else so much that they have to belittle everything that person says to make them look bad.

It does not matter what denomination you belong to. where do you get this from? I never even insinuated this;. You came at me like a Calvinist would. I was arguing against a calvanistic believe that God drags people against their will. And that all who do not come to Christ had no choice. God did not chose them so they can't come even if they believed.

We are debating a DOCTRINE. That doctrine is PREDESTINATION.

i was debating calvanism. I think it was prety clear. But your seem to be on a warpath with me, so you could not see that.

Christians are PREDESTINATED to salvation. It matters not what we do, or think or act on or believe before God fills us with His love in the shape of faith and understanding...when He does we WILL come to Him.....because of WHAT HE DID FOR US and because He chose us before the foundations of the world and not because we chose Him. We WILL choose Him no matter what IF He chooses us. God does not fail in His commision EVER.

God knew based on foreknowledge. Nothing else. God chose based on what he knew. Not what he made someone do.

Now, you either agree with that or you dont.

it depends on how you say it happens. the calvanistic view, or the realistic view.

Whats it to be?

Please answer the question without injecting your fallacious strawmen regarding FORCE, CALVINISM, DRAG, FREEWILL or anything else into your answer.

They have been answered. I am sick of repeating myself. Go look for yourself. If you would stop hating, and actually read what someone says and TRY to understand. you would not come off the way you do

here is an example.

ἕλκω (and in later writ. ἑλκύω also [Veitch s. v.; W. 86 (82)]); impf. εἷλκον (Acts 21:30); fut. ἑλκύσω [ἐλκ. Rec.elz Jn. 12:32]; 1 aor. εἵλκυσα ([inf. (Jn. 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, -κῦσαι Rst G Tr]; cf. Bttm. Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii. p. 171; Krüger § 40 s. v.; [Lob. Paralip. p. 35 sq.; Veitch s. v.]); fr. Hom. down; Sept. for מָשַׁךְ; to draw;
1. prop.: τὸ δίκτυον, Jn. 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, Jn. 18:10 (Soph. Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινά, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, Jas. 2:6 (πρὸς τὸν δῆμον, Arstph. eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caes. b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4) cum trinis catenis vinctus traheretur, Liv. 2, 27 cum a lictoribus Jam traheretur).
2. metaph. to draw by inward power, lead, impel: Jn. 6:44 (so in Grk. also; as ἐπιθυμίας … ἑλκούσης ἐπὶ ἡδονάς, Plat. Phaedr. p. 238 a.; ὑπὸ τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Acl. h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11). trahit sua quemque voluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, Jn. 12:32. Cf. Mey. on Jn. 6:44; [Trench § xxi. COMP.: ἐξ-έλκω.]*

As you see. Drag means to force against will.

Draw, lead impel means to direct. not by force. But what is offered. Like Gods love and his precious gift.

If you want to keep using drag. That your problem. I will interpret it as it is interpreted. not some man made interpretation.

 

[Strangelove]

No this is what happens when one hates someone else so much that they have to belittle everything that person says to make them look bad.

Oh stop being a dramaqueen. I dont hate anyone. I'm belittling SOME things you are saying because they are WRONG.

It does not matter what denomination you belong to. where do you get this from? I never even insinuated this;.

Huh? I've noticed you do this now and again. Making arguments out of thin air. What are you insinuating I insinuated you insinuated?

You came at me like a Calvinist would. I was arguing against a calvanistic believe that God drags people against their will. And that all who do not come to Christ had no choice. God did not chose them so they can't come even if they believed.

STRAWMAN AGAIN.

The topic is PREDESTINATION. Its a basic Christian DOCTRINE.

I have never said ANYWHERE in this thread that anything happens against ANY ONES FREEWILL. That is something YOU projected onto me. Nor have I ever said that people who believe cannot come to God if God did not choose them.

People CANNOT believe if God doesnt choose them. Simple.

God knew based on foreknowledge. Nothing else. God chose based on what he knew. Not what he made someone do.

STRAWMAN AGAIN. There you go with the FORCE angle again. When are you gonna quit that?

it depends on how you say it happens. the calvanistic view, or the realistic view.

Huh? I'm saying it with MY view. Here it is again:

Christians are PREDESTINATED to salvation. It matters not what we do, or think or act on or believe before God fills us with His love in the shape of faith and understanding...when He does we WILL come to Him.....because of WHAT HE DID FOR US and because He chose us before the foundations of the world and not because we chose Him. We WILL choose Him no matter what IF He chooses us. God does not fail in His commision EVER.

Either agree or disagree.

They have been answered. I am sick of repeating myself. Go look for yourself. If you would stop hating, and actually read what someone says and TRY to understand. you would not come off the way you do

here is an example.

ἕλκω (and in later writ. ἑλκύω also [Veitch s. v.; W. 86 (82)]); impf. εἷλκον (Acts 21:30); fut. ἑλκύσω [ἐλκ. Rec.elz Jn. 12:32]; 1 aor. εἵλκυσα ([inf. (Jn. 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, -κῦσαι Rst G Tr]; cf. Bttm. Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii. p. 171; Krüger § 40 s. v.; [Lob. Paralip. p. 35 sq.; Veitch s. v.]); fr. Hom. down; Sept. for מָשַׁךְ; to draw;
1. prop.: τὸ δίκτυον, Jn. 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, Jn. 18:10 (Soph. Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινά, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, Jas. 2:6 (πρὸς τὸν δῆμον, Arstph. eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caes. b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4) cum trinis catenis vinctus traheretur, Liv. 2, 27 cum a lictoribus Jam traheretur).
2. metaph. to draw by inward power, lead, impel: Jn. 6:44 (so in Grk. also; as ἐπιθυμίας … ἑλκούσης ἐπὶ ἡδονάς, Plat. Phaedr. p. 238 a.; ὑπὸ τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Acl. h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11). trahit sua quemque voluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, Jn. 12:32. Cf. Mey. on Jn. 6:44; [Trench § xxi. COMP.: ἐξ-έλκω.]*

As you see. Drag means to force against will.

Draw, lead impel means to direct. not by force. But what is offered. Like Gods love and his precious gift.

If you want to keep using drag. That your problem. I will interpret it as it is interpreted. not some man made interpretation.

There you go again. STRAWMAN. Who cares what the word is? I've already made it PAINFULLY CLEAR that nothing happens against any ones freewill.

You are so PROUD gratefull (sic)

And can you please STOP with the accusations of HATRED. You are bearing false witness...not just to me but to others here. It's not helping your case.

Well,,,,,nothing can help your case really.

 

[Crossfire]

The biblical concept of Predestination is based entirely on the fact that God exists outside of mankind's perception of time. Time is but one aspect or dimension of creation, no different than space, mass or gravity.

God himself says in Isaiah 46:10 "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’ Believers are 'predestined' because God himself sees everything that has happened, is happening, and will ever happen from a unique perspective that exists outside of time. He is able to make decisions and position people in the right places at the right the times based on this unique perspective.

A good example of this is Macy's Thanksgiving Parade. If you are watching the parade from a particular street corner or window then you can only see what's in front of you and have have no idea what is coming next. However, if you are thousands of feet up in the air hovering above in a helicopter, you can see the entire parade all at once. You are capable of seeing the end of the parade and the beginning of the parade and can communicate to those at the beginning of the parade what they are going to see next before it happens.

Jesus gave his life for the salvation of all mankind however, God knows who will embrace the gospel truth and who will reject it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh stop being a dramaqueen. I dont hate anyone. I'm belittling SOME things you are saying because they are WRONG.

Well good, we have your opinion. Thank God my eternity is not dependant on your perception of whether I am right or not. You should stop thinking so highly of yourself.

The topic is PREDESTINATION. Its a basic Christian DOCTRINE.

yeah. and if you go back. OUR ARGUMENT started over calvanism. Maybe you forgot?

I have never said ANYWHERE in this thread that anything happens against ANY ONES FREEWILL. That is something YOU projected onto me. Nor have I ever said that people who believe cannot come to God if God did not choose them.

Well then why did you not agree with me when I said the same dang thing? Oh wait. You can't do that it might hurt your pride to agree with me?

People CANNOT believe if God doesnt choose them. Simple.

God chose them because he KNEW THEY WOULD BELIEVE, Simple. here you go back to calvanism!

STRAWMAN AGAIN. There you go with the FORCE angle again. When are you gonna quit that?

I will quit it when you stop using DRAG, and start using the proper words.

Huh? I'm saying it with MY view. Here it is again:

Christians are PREDESTINATED to salvation. It matters not what we do, or think or act on or believe before God fills us with His love in the shape of faith and understanding...when He does we WILL come to Him.....because of WHAT HE DID FOR US and because He chose us before the foundations of the world and not because we chose Him. We WILL choose Him no matter what IF He chooses us. God does not fail in His commision EVER.

Either agree or disagree.

God is willing that NON SHOULD PARISH. If God is willing and he never fails. then all men would come to him. All do not. why? God does not force his will on anyone. He wants us to chose him. Like any father wants a child to chose to love him. And not have to force them.


There you go again. STRAWMAN. Who cares what the word is? I've already made it PAINFULLY CLEAR that nothing happens against any ones freewill.[/quote]

Then why are you to proud to use a word which would not MEEN forced against ones will??

You are so PROUD gratefull (sic)

And can you please STOP with the accusations of HATRED. You are bearing false witness...not just to me but to others here. It's not helping your case.

Well,,,,,nothing can help your case really.

lol. You think I have not seen people like you before? Have not seen the way you belittle people. even when they are not talking to you (like you did in Scotts thread?

Maybe your friends will stick up for you. But everyone who is open minded can see what your doing.

 

[jandian]

Shroom...would anyone who God gave understanding and truly poured out His spirit on resist His love?

WOULD they?

Forget about FORCE.....WOULD THEY? Did you? Would anyone?

I dont think you answered that question.

Its not impossible... Adam and Eve did...:

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its not impossible... Adam and Eve did...:

Good point. there is not a man or woman on Earth today that Knew God as well as Adam and Eve,