Predestination
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LINK: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/29955-predestination-9.html Post #171
Just bookmarking it incase EG has calmed down enough to continue the debate.
Just bookmarking it incase EG has calmed down enough to continue the debate.
Jonathan Edwards on the Cessation of the Gifts of Prophecy.
In the current Westminster Theological Journal (Vol. 64, No. 1 Spring 2002) Philip A. Craig has a twenty page essay on this subject, which is well worth studying. He begins thus:
This article will trace out the development of the Reformed view of cessationism (the doctrine that revelatory "sign gifts" such as prophecy ceased with the early apostolic church), with particular emphasis on Jonathan Edwards rather than B. B. Warfield as the culminating figure in this development. Edwards invites our attention especially because he is considered by many the theologian of revival par excellence, and encountered a supposed revival of prophecy firsthand during the Great Awakening. This article will further buttress John D. Hannah's recent claim that contemporary charismatics are misappropriating Edwards's theology as they seek to justify prophecy as a continuing gift for today.
Despite a renewal of interest in his theology; Edwards's view of cessationism has been much neglected by evangelicals today. Edwards merits nary a mention, for example, in Wayne Grudem's recently edited Are Miraculous Gifts For Today?: Four Views (Zondervan). This neglect may have come about because Edwards bases his case for cessationism far more on his understanding of redemptive history and canon than on his exegesis of disputed Scripture passages. I hope to demonstrate that Edwards's position, a more full-orbed understanding of cessationism than has been suspected, has unfortunately been neglected, much to the endangerment of the contemporary evangelical church.
In order to unpack Edwards's view of cessationism, I will examine a number of related strands:
(1) his distinctive understanding of redemptive history, with the sign gifts operative during the period of the early church's minority (or immaturity);
(2) his understanding of Christian charity as the pre-eminent spiritual grace;
(3) his view of canon and its implications for the supposed continuation of prophecy;
(4) his repeated experience with failed prophecies during the Great Awakening;
(5) his controversy with Whitefield and also with Davenport and Croswell over so-called revelatory impulses;
(6) the Puritan view of prophesying as being intimately connected with preaching as the pre-eminent means of grace;
(7) the impact of the New England Antinomian Controversy on Edwards's view;
(8) his expressed fear that the extreme New Lights marked the emergence of a counterfeit evangelical Christianity; and
(9) his view of Scripture's sufficiency
And, eighteen closely argued fascinating pages later, this is Philip Craig's conclusion:
Though building on the foundation begun by John Calvin and John Owen, Jonathan Edwards took the development of the Reformed doctrine of cessationism to new heights. The depth and breadth of the arguments Edwards has marshalled against restorationism (the belief in the restoration of apostolic sign-gifts such as prophecy) marks out the apogee of cessationism, which is indeed one of the main themes of his writing and a matter of urgent concern for him.
Edwards clearly considered the revival of prophecy, or new revelation, as the gravest threat to the continued revival of the church, which he hoped would usher in the glorious times. This error threatened to undo, for all eternity, "great multitudes" and to make the Bible of little account in the eyes of the average professor.
Edwards's many arguments against the restoration of prophecy can be summarized as follows.
First, in discussing spiritual enlightenment, he presses home the Puritan Reformed view that the Spirit works in, by and through the word, not by new revelation.
Secondly, prophecy was a temporary and extraordinary gift, given only to support the church in its infancy before the canon was completed and to authenticate the new revelation given the apostles.
Third, the canon closed with the death of the apostles, has remained closed for over 1600 years, and Scripture gives us no reason to expect new revelation or any new dispensation.
Fourth, the sanctifying influences of the Holy Spirit are what will glorify the church and fit it for heaven, not extraordinary gifts; prophecy, far from glorifying the church, is a stumbling block to further revival.
Fifth, Scripture is a sufficient and perfect rule for Christian life and faith.
Sixth, preaching, not prophecy is the prime means of grace appointed by God for the extension of His kingdom.
Seventh, failed prophecies abounded during The Great Awakening, often with disastrous results.
Eighth, church history as well as Edwards's experience demonstrates that the elevation of prophecy causes the denigration of Scripture: the church stops following the sure polestar of Scripture and wanders after the jack-o'-lantern of prophecy
Finally, the so-called direct witness of the Holy Spirit had "eternally undone" what he described as "great multitudes" in the Great Awakening by leading them to presume assurance of salvation without any evidence of Christian practice. Indeed, Edwards believes this teaching is producing a counterfeit evangelical Christianity.
With his Puritan Reformed heritage, Edwards takes great pains to reaffirm an emphasis sadly lacking in contemporary evangelicalism, the primacy of the preached word. As Edwards made clear in A Treatise Concerning Religious Affections, it is not prophecy, but preaching that God has appointed to "impress upon sinners their misery and need of a Savior and the glory and sufficiency of Christ."'
The Westminster Theological Journal is published by Westminster Theological Seminary, Chestnut Hill, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19118, USA.
Banner of Truth Trust General Articles
In the current Westminster Theological Journal (Vol. 64, No. 1 Spring 2002) Philip A. Craig has a twenty page essay on this subject, which is well worth studying. He begins thus:
This article will trace out the development of the Reformed view of cessationism (the doctrine that revelatory "sign gifts" such as prophecy ceased with the early apostolic church), with particular emphasis on Jonathan Edwards rather than B. B. Warfield as the culminating figure in this development. Edwards invites our attention especially because he is considered by many the theologian of revival par excellence, and encountered a supposed revival of prophecy firsthand during the Great Awakening. This article will further buttress John D. Hannah's recent claim that contemporary charismatics are misappropriating Edwards's theology as they seek to justify prophecy as a continuing gift for today.
Despite a renewal of interest in his theology; Edwards's view of cessationism has been much neglected by evangelicals today. Edwards merits nary a mention, for example, in Wayne Grudem's recently edited Are Miraculous Gifts For Today?: Four Views (Zondervan). This neglect may have come about because Edwards bases his case for cessationism far more on his understanding of redemptive history and canon than on his exegesis of disputed Scripture passages. I hope to demonstrate that Edwards's position, a more full-orbed understanding of cessationism than has been suspected, has unfortunately been neglected, much to the endangerment of the contemporary evangelical church.
In order to unpack Edwards's view of cessationism, I will examine a number of related strands:
(1) his distinctive understanding of redemptive history, with the sign gifts operative during the period of the early church's minority (or immaturity);
(2) his understanding of Christian charity as the pre-eminent spiritual grace;
(3) his view of canon and its implications for the supposed continuation of prophecy;
(4) his repeated experience with failed prophecies during the Great Awakening;
(5) his controversy with Whitefield and also with Davenport and Croswell over so-called revelatory impulses;
(6) the Puritan view of prophesying as being intimately connected with preaching as the pre-eminent means of grace;
(7) the impact of the New England Antinomian Controversy on Edwards's view;
(8) his expressed fear that the extreme New Lights marked the emergence of a counterfeit evangelical Christianity; and
(9) his view of Scripture's sufficiency
And, eighteen closely argued fascinating pages later, this is Philip Craig's conclusion:
Though building on the foundation begun by John Calvin and John Owen, Jonathan Edwards took the development of the Reformed doctrine of cessationism to new heights. The depth and breadth of the arguments Edwards has marshalled against restorationism (the belief in the restoration of apostolic sign-gifts such as prophecy) marks out the apogee of cessationism, which is indeed one of the main themes of his writing and a matter of urgent concern for him.
Edwards clearly considered the revival of prophecy, or new revelation, as the gravest threat to the continued revival of the church, which he hoped would usher in the glorious times. This error threatened to undo, for all eternity, "great multitudes" and to make the Bible of little account in the eyes of the average professor.
Edwards's many arguments against the restoration of prophecy can be summarized as follows.
First, in discussing spiritual enlightenment, he presses home the Puritan Reformed view that the Spirit works in, by and through the word, not by new revelation.
Secondly, prophecy was a temporary and extraordinary gift, given only to support the church in its infancy before the canon was completed and to authenticate the new revelation given the apostles.
Third, the canon closed with the death of the apostles, has remained closed for over 1600 years, and Scripture gives us no reason to expect new revelation or any new dispensation.
Fourth, the sanctifying influences of the Holy Spirit are what will glorify the church and fit it for heaven, not extraordinary gifts; prophecy, far from glorifying the church, is a stumbling block to further revival.
Fifth, Scripture is a sufficient and perfect rule for Christian life and faith.
Sixth, preaching, not prophecy is the prime means of grace appointed by God for the extension of His kingdom.
Seventh, failed prophecies abounded during The Great Awakening, often with disastrous results.
Eighth, church history as well as Edwards's experience demonstrates that the elevation of prophecy causes the denigration of Scripture: the church stops following the sure polestar of Scripture and wanders after the jack-o'-lantern of prophecy
Finally, the so-called direct witness of the Holy Spirit had "eternally undone" what he described as "great multitudes" in the Great Awakening by leading them to presume assurance of salvation without any evidence of Christian practice. Indeed, Edwards believes this teaching is producing a counterfeit evangelical Christianity.
With his Puritan Reformed heritage, Edwards takes great pains to reaffirm an emphasis sadly lacking in contemporary evangelicalism, the primacy of the preached word. As Edwards made clear in A Treatise Concerning Religious Affections, it is not prophecy, but preaching that God has appointed to "impress upon sinners their misery and need of a Savior and the glory and sufficiency of Christ."'
The Westminster Theological Journal is published by Westminster Theological Seminary, Chestnut Hill, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19118, USA.
Banner of Truth Trust General Articles
E
So your saying God. who is ALL knowing. did not know beforhand you were taking a bath? No wonder you do not believe in literal interpretation of prophesy. You do not think God can see things before they happened. Now it all makes sense.
lol. wow. Amazing. You don't know God at all do you?
Yep. God made that drunk person who raped and mutilated that poor 13 year old. because he controls everything. get real dude! Do you know what your faulty belief makes God out to be? According to you satan was correct in what his lie against God was! even if you don't agree. it is true
Yep. And that drunken idiot who raped that poor girl, Was in Gods will. God will evil on all men. Why does God even punish evil? If it his will that we do evil. Then it is his fault. not ours.
My bible says no sin comes from God. or temptation. I guess it is not Gods will that we sin then is it?
You have not engineered much have you? You creat something that is perfect. Because you know how it will be, what it will do, how it will react.
N A god who KNOWS ALL THINGS.
No you purposely left out the foreknowledge passage.
What does this prove? That God is patient allowing evil to continue until all whome he has elected to salvation is saved?
what about God propitiation? does it not say he propitiated our (the elect) sins, but also the sin of the whole world (elect and non elect)
What about Jesus, did he not claim that all he does or says comes from God? Did Jesus not say he desired (willed) to take Jersualem in as a mother hen, but they were not willing? If it was Gods will that they were willing, why did they reject?
Or how about the HS. Is he not God. Did Scripture not say that Israel was chastened for resisting the HS. How could they resist? if they were going to do what God said anyway, they could not resist. They would do what he willed.
How about evil people? Does God will that men do evil things??
How about grieving the HS. How can I grieve the HS if I am doing what he willed in the first place?
No wonder we can not agree. I have no clue who your god is. Nor would I ever have any desire to know him. Because he is the God satan wants him to be. Not the loving father and creator who loves ALL his creatures.
then we have these
He can't prophesy adequately because he does not know what will happen beforehand. so 1000 years is not 1000 years. because he can't possibly know that 1000 years would happen.
He paid for the sins of all people, Yet he wasted his time because many he did not will to be saved, he willed them to reject him and Go to hell. so why pay for their sins at all?
he willed people to go to hell.
You can have this God!
lol. wow. Amazing. You don't know God at all do you?
Yep. God made that drunk person who raped and mutilated that poor 13 year old. because he controls everything. get real dude! Do you know what your faulty belief makes God out to be? According to you satan was correct in what his lie against God was! even if you don't agree. it is true
Yep. And that drunken idiot who raped that poor girl, Was in Gods will. God will evil on all men. Why does God even punish evil? If it his will that we do evil. Then it is his fault. not ours.
My bible says no sin comes from God. or temptation. I guess it is not Gods will that we sin then is it?
You have not engineered much have you? You creat something that is perfect. Because you know how it will be, what it will do, how it will react.
N A god who KNOWS ALL THINGS.
No you purposely left out the foreknowledge passage.
What does this prove? That God is patient allowing evil to continue until all whome he has elected to salvation is saved?
what about God propitiation? does it not say he propitiated our (the elect) sins, but also the sin of the whole world (elect and non elect)
What about Jesus, did he not claim that all he does or says comes from God? Did Jesus not say he desired (willed) to take Jersualem in as a mother hen, but they were not willing? If it was Gods will that they were willing, why did they reject?
Or how about the HS. Is he not God. Did Scripture not say that Israel was chastened for resisting the HS. How could they resist? if they were going to do what God said anyway, they could not resist. They would do what he willed.
How about evil people? Does God will that men do evil things??
How about grieving the HS. How can I grieve the HS if I am doing what he willed in the first place?
No wonder we can not agree. I have no clue who your god is. Nor would I ever have any desire to know him. Because he is the God satan wants him to be. Not the loving father and creator who loves ALL his creatures.
then we have these
He can't prophesy adequately because he does not know what will happen beforehand. so 1000 years is not 1000 years. because he can't possibly know that 1000 years would happen.
He paid for the sins of all people, Yet he wasted his time because many he did not will to be saved, he willed them to reject him and Go to hell. so why pay for their sins at all?
he willed people to go to hell.
You can have this God!
E
They did not need the gospel of Jesus Christ. Thus the gospel is not even in question.
Still stubborn arn't ya?? You refuse to admit anything.
you could say they had the best of both worlds. A personal relp with God before they fell. And Jesus after they fell (although they did not kinow his name, they still had him, or they are doomed to hell)
They still had what you could never imagine, and will never imagine until you get to heaven.
You can choose whatever word you want. In order to be saved, a man must, by the freedom of his will that God gave him, confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead.
You do not understand what we are, how God created us in His image, how much He loves us. Human beings are created in the image of God. God will not overstep your free will. He wants us to love Him, but He will not force us to do so. He wants all men to be saved, and made salvation through Christ available to all, but He cannot force salvation on anyone.
Man has genuine free will. Read Proverbs some time. It contrasts the wise vs the foolish, and exhorts us to "get wisdom".
God is not a dictator, determining to save some but not others.
You deny it, but what you believe is Calvinism.
Try Mark 4:3ff. It explains it for you.
You do not understand what we are, how God created us in His image, how much He loves us. Human beings are created in the image of God. God will not overstep your free will. He wants us to love Him, but He will not force us to do so. He wants all men to be saved, and made salvation through Christ available to all, but He cannot force salvation on anyone.
Man has genuine free will. Read Proverbs some time. It contrasts the wise vs the foolish, and exhorts us to "get wisdom".
God is not a dictator, determining to save some but not others.
You deny it, but what you believe is Calvinism.
Try Mark 4:3ff. It explains it for you.
WwwwwwwwwHAT?
Why are you taking a logical example I've posed to you and making it about something different?
How many times do I have to ask you to SIMPLY ANSWER THE QUESTION?
This is the question:
If you say 'I know I'm gonna take a bath tonight'. Does it mean that you have travelled forward in time and seen yourself taking a bath, or does it simply mean you know that you have the power and control over how you use your units of time and you have the ability to absolutely state that you are gonna have a bath tonight because you know you are gonna?
Your only 'out' is to not answer the question and swerve around so not surprising really that you wont answer.
Huh? Does God have satan on a leash yes or no?
Does God allow satan to do what he does yes or no?
Is God SOVEREIGN over all the heavens and the Earth yes or no?
Does God allow satan to do his thing yes or no?
Yes He knows...and He doesnt need a De Lorian to travel in time to know it. Everything happens according to HIS WILL...His plans from the start!
YES! Knows! Not see's in a crystal ball.
Why would I do that. I have stated many times that God foreknows everything. Becasue everything happens according to His will from the start. Not because he's a science fiction buff who travels in time.
Whats with the rant?
Again you fail to simply answer the question.
(2 Peter 3:8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(2 Peter 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Who is Peter talking to here?
After you answer that THEN we can get to your other claims about what scripture says (claims you make without posting the scripture...you do that a lot)
Why are you taking a logical example I've posed to you and making it about something different?
How many times do I have to ask you to SIMPLY ANSWER THE QUESTION?
This is the question:
If you say 'I know I'm gonna take a bath tonight'. Does it mean that you have travelled forward in time and seen yourself taking a bath, or does it simply mean you know that you have the power and control over how you use your units of time and you have the ability to absolutely state that you are gonna have a bath tonight because you know you are gonna?
Your only 'out' is to not answer the question and swerve around so not surprising really that you wont answer.
Huh? Does God have satan on a leash yes or no?
Does God allow satan to do what he does yes or no?
Is God SOVEREIGN over all the heavens and the Earth yes or no?
Does God allow satan to do his thing yes or no?
Yes He knows...and He doesnt need a De Lorian to travel in time to know it. Everything happens according to HIS WILL...His plans from the start!
YES! Knows! Not see's in a crystal ball.
Why would I do that. I have stated many times that God foreknows everything. Becasue everything happens according to His will from the start. Not because he's a science fiction buff who travels in time.
Whats with the rant?
Again you fail to simply answer the question.
(2 Peter 3:8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(2 Peter 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Who is Peter talking to here?
After you answer that THEN we can get to your other claims about what scripture says (claims you make without posting the scripture...you do that a lot)
so depraved man is waxing worse and worse exactly as foretold.
and God is mercifully saving some, though not a single one deserves it.
exactly what problem do we have with that?
is this true?
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.
now a christians salvation is either partly their own doing, or it isn't.
paul said it isn't.
3 words in that verse
grace
saved
faith
THROUGH (the means by which) FAITH we are SAVED (salvation Graciously given).
where did the faith come from?
and God is mercifully saving some, though not a single one deserves it.
exactly what problem do we have with that?
is this true?
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.
now a christians salvation is either partly their own doing, or it isn't.
paul said it isn't.
3 words in that verse
grace
saved
faith
THROUGH (the means by which) FAITH we are SAVED (salvation Graciously given).
where did the faith come from?
Agreed. God allows us to do this by CHOOSING US.
Agreed. I've never said anything about God FORCING.
I've never denied man has freewill.
I've never said God is a dictator. But He definately DOES determining to save some but not others.
(Romans 8:29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Romans 9:22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(Romans 9:23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
(Romans 9:24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
I've never read Calvin.
Try answering the question. You guys just love to duck and weave!
Shroom.....the seeds that fell by the wayside and the other seeds that encountered a harsh environment...are these one who resisted to grow once in the Earth...or did they not even get near the Earth and have the chance to grow?
What do you think this parable means?
Agreed. I've never said anything about God FORCING.
I've never denied man has freewill.
I've never said God is a dictator. But He definately DOES determining to save some but not others.
(Romans 8:29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Romans 9:22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(Romans 9:23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
(Romans 9:24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
I've never read Calvin.
Try answering the question. You guys just love to duck and weave!
Shroom.....the seeds that fell by the wayside and the other seeds that encountered a harsh environment...are these one who resisted to grow once in the Earth...or did they not even get near the Earth and have the chance to grow?
What do you think this parable means?
Where have I said He didnt know all things from the start?
All I said is that God doesnt need to time travel and see whats going on in the future.
Everything happens according to HIS WILL.
(Ephesians 1:11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
His will DOES NOT worketh after the council of YOUR DECISIONS.
All I said is that God doesnt need to time travel and see whats going on in the future.
Everything happens according to HIS WILL.
(Ephesians 1:11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
His will DOES NOT worketh after the council of YOUR DECISIONS.
Exodus 9
The Seventh Plague: Hail
13Then the Lord said to Moses, “Rise up early in the morning and present yourself before Pharaoh and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, “Let my people go, that they may serve me. 14For this time I will send all my plagues on you yourself,a and on your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is none like me in all the earth. 15For by now I could have put out my hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, and you would have been cut off from the earth. 16But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth. 17You are still exalting yourself against my people and will not let them go. 18Behold, about this time tomorrow I will cause very heavy hail to fall, such as never has been in Egypt from the day it was founded until now. 19Now therefore send, get your livestock and all that you have in the field into safe shelter, for every man and beast that is in the field and is not brought home will die when the hail falls on them.”’” 20Then whoever feared the word of the Lord among the servants of Pharaoh hurried his slaves and his livestock into the houses, 21but whoever did not pay attention to the word of the Lord left his slaves and his livestock in the field.
The Seventh Plague: Hail
13Then the Lord said to Moses, “Rise up early in the morning and present yourself before Pharaoh and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, “Let my people go, that they may serve me. 14For this time I will send all my plagues on you yourself,a and on your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is none like me in all the earth. 15For by now I could have put out my hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, and you would have been cut off from the earth. 16But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth. 17You are still exalting yourself against my people and will not let them go. 18Behold, about this time tomorrow I will cause very heavy hail to fall, such as never has been in Egypt from the day it was founded until now. 19Now therefore send, get your livestock and all that you have in the field into safe shelter, for every man and beast that is in the field and is not brought home will die when the hail falls on them.”’” 20Then whoever feared the word of the Lord among the servants of Pharaoh hurried his slaves and his livestock into the houses, 21but whoever did not pay attention to the word of the Lord left his slaves and his livestock in the field.
E
1. I can't read your mind.
2. I told you I am not playing your stupid mind games. I do not study the bible by making up stupid examples. so why would I want to discuss it that way?
3. Stop thinking so highly of yourself. That is not an out. it is fact.
What does that have to do with this conversation? Why do you continue to ask questions which do not pertain to the discussion at hand?
Was it God's will for a man to brutally rape and murder a 13 y/o girl.. yes or no..
Depends. Satan wanted to destroy Peter. Did God allow him to? Allowing someone to do something or not has nothing to do with our discussion. Have you ever stopped and wondered how many times God stopped you from doing something by putting a barrier in place to prevent you which saved your life?? Thank God for his foreknowledge.
And what does satan have to do with an evil man raping a 13 year old?? Going off on your tangents again??
Ok. So God wills a man to brutally rape a girl. and millions uppon millions to go to hell.
Thanks, but no thanks
I never said this is what happens. you like twisting peoples words don't you?
What does time travel have to do with it? If God knew I would receive him and my brother would reject him before time began. Did God will my brother to reject him? Or elect to not save him because he knew he would would reject him.
Why do you have to make everything that does not conform to your believe sound so bad? Are you that proud?
If you would have read I answered that question. But since you never read anything to understand it. And just look for "words" which you have been taught people can say so you can say, Got ya!@. You never see when people answer you
E
Again. If God did not do the work. COuld you have faith in him?
What is faith zone? is it not a complete trust in things which can not be seen??
Do you have kids?
When you want them not to do something you know will hurt them, Are you not giveing them a gift by showing them a better way, or trying to show them not to do what it is they want to do.
do you not want your kid to TRUST you?
You can offer your kid the ability to have faith.l You can not force them to trust you.
This is what God does. He offer HOPE. I have to chose to trust him. and let him do what he wants to do. or chose to not trust him. and die eternally because of it.
I can't take credit for trusting him. BECAUSE I DID NOT DO ANYTHING. CHRIST DID IT ALL. THE HS TAUGHT IT ALL. AND THE FATHER ACCEPTED IT ALL. I have NO WORK IN IT.
People who work boast. I Got baptised, I went to church, I take communion. I take the eucharist. I obey Gods laws. I repent every time I sin. All these things are why God MUST save me.
What kind of boasting is there when you place your faith in a man that died almost 2000 years ago? Why do you think a legalists laughs at our silly faith based salvation? Or an athiest laughs at our silly faith in this same man? Because you can't boast WHEN YOU DO NOTHING.
No one will go to hell because God willed them to not have faith. they will go to hell because they CHOSE to not have faith