Predestination

[Strangelove]

Making me rethink my stance on Calvinism.

I'm not defending calvinism.

I've never read a word by the man.

But if calvinism says Christians are preordained to salvation...then its scripturally correct.

Jesus will not lose any that are given Him by the father. It is by His power that we are kept unto salvation.

Isn't that a wonderful assurance? Doesnt it give you immense peace and Joy in the Holy Spirit?

So do you fancy coming round my house and shooting up some smack and ordering in pizza and prostitutes? Seeing as we're guaranteed salvation whatever?

(last bit was satire)

 

[Strangelove]

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

God's drawing is not irresistible. All me can choose to seek Him, or not. It's called free will.

They resisted the Holy Spirit because they were MADE spiritually blind by God.

The Holy Spirit never entered them. They never had the LOVE. They never fell in love.

You didnt follow the line of conversation. You need to respond to this next:

But you wouldnt. So your free will choice to NOT love her is IRRELEVANT. It's not the issue. Love is the issue.

One of Gods sheep who truly love Him would never choose not to.

Thats all we are saying. It's not gonna happen.

Thats irresistable Grace.

What difference does free will make when you are shown irresistable LOVE.

 

[zone]

They resisted the Holy Spirit because they were MADE spiritually blind by God.

The Holy Spirit never entered them. They never had the LOVE. They never fell in love.

You didnt follow the line of conversation. You need to respond to this next:

But you wouldnt. So your free will choice to NOT love her is IRRELEVANT. It's not the issue. Love is the issue.

One of Gods sheep who truly love Him would never choose not to.

Thats all we are saying. It's not gonna happen.

Thats irresistable Grace.

What difference does free will make when you are shown irresistable LOVE.

let's go even further Doc.

What difference does free will make when you are GIVEN irresistable LOVE

Romans 5
Peace with God Through Faith
1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faithb into this grace in which we stand, and wec rejoiced in hope of the glory of God. 3More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

6For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

~

looks like a whole lot of giving by A Great God, and a whole lot of receiving by weak and helpless sinners.

 

[shroom2]

let's go even further Doc.

What difference does free will make when you are GIVEN irresistable LOVE

Romans 5
Peace with God Through Faith
1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faithb into this grace in which we stand, and wec rejoiced in hope of the glory of God. 3More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

6For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

~

looks like a whole lot of giving by A Great God, and a whole lot of receiving by weak and helpless sinners.

Yep. Christians receive those things when they choose to act on Romans 10:9.

(g'morning, zone)

 

[shroom2]

They resisted the Holy Spirit because they were MADE spiritually blind by God.

If God "made" them blind, why are they admonished for resisting? Seems if God "made" them blind, they are going God's will by resisting.

The Holy Spirit never entered them. They never had the LOVE. They never fell in love.

You didnt follow the line of conversation. You need to respond to this next:

But you wouldnt. So your free will choice to NOT love her is IRRELEVANT. It's not the issue. Love is the issue.

One of Gods sheep who truly love Him would never choose not to.

Thats all we are saying. It's not gonna happen.

Thats irresistable Grace.

What difference does free will make when you are shown irresistable LOVE.

Grace is not irresistible. Grace is not a "force" that makes people do things. It is simply divine favor. People can choose to respond to it, or not. Many do, and many don't. ( All men have free will ).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When you fall in love with someone what difference does free will make?

You are gonna love her cuz you love her. Simple.

No force just love. Head over heels in love.

I can only think of one reason why you dont get this.

Because I am not the type of person who makes things up so I can make my belief believable to myself.

I did not just fall in love with someone. She drew me to her by what she was, who she is. her inner and outer beauty. I was not forced to her. I also did not fall in love over night.

I also did not love her in the true sense if we got married. There is no way possible I could know everything about her (unless I sinned and moved in with her) I learn to love her more the more I get to know her.

No different with Christ.

your argument is flawed. And you have been answered so many times. There for the umpteenth time. I answered you again!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To Zone,

Again no answer?? Why is this?? You said I left the word drag out. I proves I did not. so why do you not reply?

No I said dragged is ONE of the defenitions. but it is NOT THE ONLY ONE.

When you drag someone, you are forcing them. If they go willingly, you do not have to drag them. Come on Zone what are you thinking??

You mean ONE OF THE DEFENITIONS?

Sorry ZOne. I do not pick one definition to prove my point, and ignore the rest. I use the defenition which fits in context wiht scripture. Drag does not fit.

And here we go again. Wherever you got this from highlighted ONE POSSIBLE interpretation. what about the rest of them? Why are they in small print??

I drag is only mentioned once.

what about drawing? Drawing does not mean drag. I already showed you how people draw by offering something you need. No dragging done here.

How about pull? You might be able to say it means drag, but not always. What if I am drawning and I am trying to allow someone to save me, so I willingly give him my hands so he can "Pull me up". How is free will removed here

How about pursuade? No dragging here. I can pursude someone to not do something by showing them how dangerous it is. Does it mean they have to listen to me?

Why do you ignore the whole interpretation. and take just the one someone highlighted. which is only ONE POSSIBLE interpretation of the word??

Now do you want to repeat where I said dragged can NOT BE A POSSIBLE INTERPRETATION?

No it must not. That is ONE of the possible interpretations.

Drag means force. WOuld you have to be dragged to something you want to do? I wouldnt. God pursuaded me to come to him, by leading me to where I got to the point I needed to be. He showed me by the law (my tutor) I am guilty. He showed my by his love his sacrificial death. and he showed me by his power and who he is the promise of eternal life is real.

I could have resisted. many do. I did not. I chose to follow him.


No. That person said I was dragged because he cheated and highlighted one of the many interpretations of the word. And was a sneaky man who placed the other possible interpretations in small print.

 

[zone]

Yep. Christians receive those things when they choose to act on Romans 10:9.

(g'morning, zone)

morning shroom.
okay. cool.

 

[zone]

To Zone,

Again no answer?? Why is this?? You said I left the word drag out. I proves I did not. so why do you not reply?

i think i answered it over here: though i'm wondering what the swallowing the camel is all about.
the meaning of the word is that the person is being drawn, pulled, all the other things.

it is a lot stronger than following breadcrumbs along a forest trail.

elsewhere you have said your FAITH is a gift.

so i don't get the HUGE ISSUE with acknowledging that it is God who is saving us EG.
not by FORCE with a swat team. not even calvin said that so i'm not doing this one anymore.

yes dear.
you said it did not say drag.
i showed you it did.

never once did i say it meant FORCE.

people hate calvinism - one reason is they've never bothered to find out what calvinists have expressed as Irresitable Grace. (forget TULIP generally as far as i'm concerned...i disagree with some of it)

now my proposition is that if The Creator of The Universe is drawing someone to Jesus, considering the word draw, it appears He is intent on saving that person.

Jesus Himself confirms that ALL that the Father gives Him WILL COME TO HIM.

He doesn't say some won't come to Him, He says they ALL WILL. which isn't surprising since it's God doing the drawing.

i don't read the greek, so this is the best i can do.

it certainly suggests (even just in English) that the GodHead is actively and pointedly involved in the calling and regeneration of those who are being saved. all His doing. He gets all the glory.

this is through the preaching of the Gospel. i'm not arguing for hyper-calvinism. or even for john calvin.

but what does John 6:44 really say?

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

1670. helkó
to drag​

Original Word: ἑλκύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: helkó
Phonetic Spelling: (hel-koo'-o)
Short Definition: I drag, draw, pull, persuade
Definition: I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.

1670 helkýō – properly, induce (draw in), focusing on the attraction-power involved with the drawing.

drag (1), dragged (2), draw (1), draws (1), drew (2), haul (1).

draw.
Or helko hel'-ko; probably akin to haireomai; to drag (literally or figuratively) -- draw. Compare helisso.

 

[Strangelove]

Yep. Christians receive those things when they choose to act on Romans 10:9.

(g'morning, zone)

Romans 10:9 is not something we choose to do.

It's something WE JUST DO in response to Gods truth and His gift of faith. The sheep are drawn by God, and they profess Jesus the Christ. Out of love.

Free will is irrelevant.

IF you confess Jesus is the Christ it means you have received Gods gift.

IF you dont then it means you havnt.

Choice has nothing to do with it.

The concept of love is lost on some people.

 

[Strangelove]

If God "made" them blind, why are they admonished for resisting? Seems if God "made" them blind, they are going God's will by resisting.

I dont see any admonision, I see scripture stating a fact. They resist the Holy Spirit. Because they were preordained as vessels of wrath.

Grace is not irresistible. Grace is not a "force" that makes people do things. It is simply divine favor. People can choose to respond to it, or not. Many do, and many don't. ( All men have free will ).

You still dont understand love.

You didnt follow the line of conversation. You need to respond to this next:

But you wouldnt. So your free will choice to NOT love her is IRRELEVANT. It's not the issue. Love is the issue.

One of Gods sheep who truly love Him would never choose not to.

Thats all we are saying. It's not gonna happen.

Thats irresistable Grace.

What difference does free will make when you are GIVEN irresistable LOVE.

You said yourself that you wouldnt reject true love. Never gonna happen. I dunno what you are arguing for. Case closed.

 

[Strangelove]

Because I am not the type of person who makes things up so I can make my belief believable to myself.

No I wouldnt credit you with being that creative. You just use others errors to make your beliefs believable.

I did not just fall in love with someone. She drew me to her by what she was, who she is. her inner and outer beauty. I was not forced to her. I also did not fall in love over night.

WHY do you keep saying FORCED as if thats what we are saying?

You keep doing that over and over again. This is simply dishonesty.

Ok so you didnt fall in love overnight....thats not what we're saying happens with Jesus. All we are saying is that you would never make a decision NOT to continue the falling in love process if the object of your life is so GREAT!

Would you agree or not?

Can you forget about FORCED plz!!?

I also did not love her in the true sense if we got married. There is no way possible I could know everything about her (unless I sinned and moved in with her) I learn to love her more the more I get to know her.

No different with Christ.

??

Again, the amount or length of time it takes that you love someone is neither here nor there. Irrelevant.

your argument is flawed. And you have been answered so many times. There for the umpteenth time. I answered you again!

Would you have NOT loved the person you love? Thats all I'm asking you?

Can I get a direct answer or what?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No I wouldnt credit you with being that creative. You just use others errors to make your beliefs believable.

So your admitting you make stuff up to make your doctrines believable to you? At least your honest! Because they sure would not help anyone else believe the way you do.

WHY do you keep saying FORCED as if thats what we are saying?

Drag equals forced. Why are you refusing to admit someone who is dragged somewhere is taken by force? If one is going where they want to go. you would not have to drag them. you would lead them. or direct them and they would willingly follow.

You keep doing that over and over again. This is simply dishonesty.

Dishonesty? wow, how can you say stuff like this and look in the mirror? So your saying I can fall in love with no influence at all?? That is called lust my friend. And even lust takes some influence to draw someone in (beauty)

Ok so you didnt fall in love overnight....thats not what we're saying happens with Jesus. All we are saying is that you would never make a decision NOT to continue the falling in love process if the object of your life is so GREAT!

What is great is in the eye of the beholder. What I see as Great ,might not be great for someone else. Jesus is great. But not everyone sees him this way. if they did. NO ONE WOULD REJECT HIM.

Would you agree or not?

See above

Can you forget about FORCED plz!!?

No I can't. drag means forced. I did not come to love someone or see how "great they are" without being drawn to them. Something they had brought be to them, and influenced my decision to fall for them. You rejecting the pre-phase.

??

Again, the amount or length of time it takes that you love someone is neither here nor there. Irrelevant.

It is only irrelevant in your mind. Because you have to have it irreverent. Because if it is not your doctrine falls on its face.

Romans 1 proves this. Everyone can see the beauty of God and his creation. We even know his law, even if we never read it. His law is written in our hearts. Yet people chose to reject this knowledge, this thing which draws them to god. So that no one has an excuse. According to calvanism. they have an excuse. Because God kept it from them and did not allow them to see it.

Would you have NOT loved the person you love? Thats all I'm asking you?

you seen the divorce rate lately? Of all these people who were in love, but no longer love.

Can I get a direct answer or what?

why? so you can be puffed up?? Again. many people fall out of love. Not only with a spouse. but with God. try another example. this one stinks!

 

[shroom2]

Romans 10:9 is not something we choose to do.

Bullcarp. It is absolutely something we choose to do. Read it. See the word "IF"?

It's something WE JUST DO in response to Gods truth and His gift of faith. The sheep are drawn by God, and they profess Jesus the Christ. Out of love.

Free will is irrelevant.

IF you confess Jesus is the Christ it means you have received Gods gift.

Exactly backwards. You receive God's gift when you confess and believe.
Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

IF you dont then it means you havnt.

Choice has nothing to do with it.

Choice has everything to do with it.

The concept of love is lost on some people.

"Love means never having to say you're sorry".

...

We do good works out of love, but love does not make us do anything.

 

[zone]

I believe the doctrine of election, because I am quite certain that, if God had not chosen me, I should never have chosen Him; and I am sure He chose me before I was born, or else He never would have chosen me afterwards; and He must have elected me for reasons unknown to me, for I never could find any reason in myself why He should have looked upon me with special love. So I am forced to accept that great Biblical doctrine.
— Charles Spurgeon

 

[jimmydiggs]

Seems pretty straight-forward to me.

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Have fun.

 

[zone]

LOL diggs.
i gotta find your clip art stash.

 

[jimmydiggs]

LOL diggs.
i gotta find your clip art stash.

google images, honestly..


This is the search: ---> click <---

 

[zone]

google images, honestly..


This is the search: ---> click <---

cool.
i've been using stoopid yahoo and they recently made them bigger.
plus i don't like it that they come forward or whatever when you pass over them.
i like the old click and drag.
tsk....what's a caveman to do.
thanks diggs.

 

[jimmydiggs]

cool.
i've been using stoopid yahoo and they recently made them bigger.
plus i don't like it that they come forward or whatever when you pass over them.
i like the old click and drag.
tsk....what's a caveman to do.
thanks diggs.

Google Images is nice, it's so easy even a caveman can do it.