Preterists - Put up or shutter up
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G
Absolutely.
If you will study in-depth what this verse is saying - I believe that you will find that the "blessed hope" is intrinsically tied to the Second Coming of Christ:
Titus 2:
[SUP]13[/SUP] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Somewhere along the way ( in your study ), you should come to realize that there is only one more coming of Christ - the Second Coming of Christ - and that - the rapture will occur as a 'sub-event' of the overall 'event' that is the Second Coming of Christ. At that point, you will recognize that the recieving of a 'glorified' body is also a part of the Second Coming of Christ -- all of which collectively may be considered to be our "blessed hope"...
Nope. The absolute majority of them will have been beheaded by that time...
In my opinion, most Christians are confused on this issue.
The "armies which were in heaven" ( Revelation 19:14 ) came from heaven; however, that is not where they are in the context of Revelation 19:15-21.
The rapture 'event' itself [ literally ] IS the marriage -- just like what is described in Revelation 19:17-18,21 [ literally ] IS the marriage supper.
I believe that most Christians have learned a humanistic definition and description of the marriage and the marriage supper - and that - that is the major cause of the misconception...
If you will study in-depth what this verse is saying - I believe that you will find that the "blessed hope" is intrinsically tied to the Second Coming of Christ:
Titus 2:
[SUP]13[/SUP] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Somewhere along the way ( in your study ), you should come to realize that there is only one more coming of Christ - the Second Coming of Christ - and that - the rapture will occur as a 'sub-event' of the overall 'event' that is the Second Coming of Christ. At that point, you will recognize that the recieving of a 'glorified' body is also a part of the Second Coming of Christ -- all of which collectively may be considered to be our "blessed hope"...
Nope. The absolute majority of them will have been beheaded by that time...
In my opinion, most Christians are confused on this issue.
The "armies which were in heaven" ( Revelation 19:14 ) came from heaven; however, that is not where they are in the context of Revelation 19:15-21.
The rapture 'event' itself [ literally ] IS the marriage -- just like what is described in Revelation 19:17-18,21 [ literally ] IS the marriage supper.
I believe that most Christians have learned a humanistic definition and description of the marriage and the marriage supper - and that - that is the major cause of the misconception...
G
He comes with the souls of the saints. The first thing that occurs when He "gets here" is the 'rapture' - the translation of the saints - recieving their 'glorified' bodies.
There is no FOR His saints. ( as if taking them somewhere afterwards )
When He gets here -- souls are here - bodies are here - translation occurs -- nobody needs to go anywhere.
There is no FOR His saints. ( as if taking them somewhere afterwards )
When He gets here -- souls are here - bodies are here - translation occurs -- nobody needs to go anywhere.
Not to worry. The Temple to be built whould be built to Yahweh by the Jews.....by Israel.
It is only after the prophet of the evil one..the Anti-Christ and he are on the scene that the Beast
will enter into the Temple claiming himself to be God.
This is why I have always believed the Anti-Christ will be of the Israeli tribes, most likely of the Tribe of Judah, but which tribe is moot.
Also the previous demonstrates that the Israel and Jerusalem of this age today is strictly a staging ground for teh fulfillment of all of God's Word.
When a little meditation and pray are dedicated to these questions the response is clear....I belie anyway.
It is only after the prophet of the evil one..the Anti-Christ and he are on the scene that the Beast
will enter into the Temple claiming himself to be God.
This is why I have always believed the Anti-Christ will be of the Israeli tribes, most likely of the Tribe of Judah, but which tribe is moot.
Also the previous demonstrates that the Israel and Jerusalem of this age today is strictly a staging ground for teh fulfillment of all of God's Word.
When a little meditation and pray are dedicated to these questions the response is clear....I belie anyway.
G
John 5:
[SUP]28[/SUP] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [SUP]29[/SUP] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
What makes you think that the phrase "the hour is coming" in this passage is referring to an hour which is part of the Second Coming? Can the Lord not call out all that are in the graves after His millennial reign but before the Great White Throne Judgment?
[SUP]28[/SUP] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [SUP]29[/SUP] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
What makes you think that the phrase "the hour is coming" in this passage is referring to an hour which is part of the Second Coming? Can the Lord not call out all that are in the graves after His millennial reign but before the Great White Throne Judgment?
G
In the context of the vision, a key is a key, a dragon is a dragon, a chain is a chain, and 1000 years is 1000 years. If and when something is 'figurative' or 'symbolic' - it is not because of the wording itself, but rather, the context of the idea being expressed by the wording. From the perspective of the wording itself, a thousand is [ exactly ] a thousand, whether it is hills or years. Any non-literal meaning comes from understanding the particular use of the words in the context of language.
The non-literal meaning of "the cattle upon a thousand hills" in Psalms 50:10 is not tied to the word 'thousand' at all; rather, it comes from the fact that there is no precise indication of how many cattle there are - or may be - upon a thousand hills. In the context of the verse, the words "a thousand" mean exactly a thousand ( i.e. - 1000 ). In the context of the verse, "the cattle upon a thousand hills" literally means "the cattle upon 1000 hills" - however many there are or may be. It is the number of cattle that is unknown - not the number of hills. And, that is where the non-literal meaning comes from - the 'abstract' nature of the 'unkown'. It is "understood" from the context of the language - and, is not based on the definitions of the actual words themselves. The words of the language are only used to define the context, scope, and detail of the idea which is intended for us to obtain from reading the words.
Is this making sense?
To obtain a proper interpretation from John's vision, you have to interpret the vision. You have to obtain meaning from the components of the vision - what John saw - not the actual words in the sentences of the passage that are used to describe the vision.
You have to "see what John saw" and interpret from the context of what he saw - and what he says. And, just because a passage contains some non-literal meaning - does not mean that there are no literal components within it as well. You can't simply declare a whole passage to be "all literal" or "all non-literal" - it does not work that way. There my be literal and non-literal components in the same passage.
What is and is not literal is determined by context - based on the 'grammar of the language'...
The non-literal meaning of "the cattle upon a thousand hills" in Psalms 50:10 is not tied to the word 'thousand' at all; rather, it comes from the fact that there is no precise indication of how many cattle there are - or may be - upon a thousand hills. In the context of the verse, the words "a thousand" mean exactly a thousand ( i.e. - 1000 ). In the context of the verse, "the cattle upon a thousand hills" literally means "the cattle upon 1000 hills" - however many there are or may be. It is the number of cattle that is unknown - not the number of hills. And, that is where the non-literal meaning comes from - the 'abstract' nature of the 'unkown'. It is "understood" from the context of the language - and, is not based on the definitions of the actual words themselves. The words of the language are only used to define the context, scope, and detail of the idea which is intended for us to obtain from reading the words.
Is this making sense?
To obtain a proper interpretation from John's vision, you have to interpret the vision. You have to obtain meaning from the components of the vision - what John saw - not the actual words in the sentences of the passage that are used to describe the vision.
You have to "see what John saw" and interpret from the context of what he saw - and what he says. And, just because a passage contains some non-literal meaning - does not mean that there are no literal components within it as well. You can't simply declare a whole passage to be "all literal" or "all non-literal" - it does not work that way. There my be literal and non-literal components in the same passage.
What is and is not literal is determined by context - based on the 'grammar of the language'...
Sometimes our Lord would speak in parables, and on occasion He would speak quite plainly and say so.
So it is with the prophesies, and even some that seem quigte plain are not what they seem.
We should all talke a lesson from what the Angeltold Daniel and what Mary practiced. The Angels told Daniel when Daniel declared he did not understand the prophesies that it is for a generation to come, and he should seal the words up in a book. He did, and now we await to see if it is our generation which is to understand all. If not, we will sleep and be reasied on the Day of the Lord.
When Mary did not understand something, she would keep it to herself, and that is wise. I am not a Cathoic, so do not go off on that one.
Even wwhere I post what I tend to believe about the Beast above is subject to not being quite correct, but for now, my tendency is believing what I posted. It just seems right. I would not dare pronounce on all of Revelation because it is coupled with the prophofesies in Daniel. God bless all in Jesus Christ, being in Jesus Christ is allt hat ruly matters for any of us.
So it is with the prophesies, and even some that seem quigte plain are not what they seem.
We should all talke a lesson from what the Angeltold Daniel and what Mary practiced. The Angels told Daniel when Daniel declared he did not understand the prophesies that it is for a generation to come, and he should seal the words up in a book. He did, and now we await to see if it is our generation which is to understand all. If not, we will sleep and be reasied on the Day of the Lord.
When Mary did not understand something, she would keep it to herself, and that is wise. I am not a Cathoic, so do not go off on that one.
Even wwhere I post what I tend to believe about the Beast above is subject to not being quite correct, but for now, my tendency is believing what I posted. It just seems right. I would not dare pronounce on all of Revelation because it is coupled with the prophofesies in Daniel. God bless all in Jesus Christ, being in Jesus Christ is allt hat ruly matters for any of us.
G
I tend to think that Revelation was written earlier than is popularly believed by most. Yet, I am not a preterist.
I see the fulfillment of Matthew 24 in a span of time that is ~2000 years in length - starting circa 70 A.D. and ending in our future. I do not believe that the detail-of-events being described in Matthew 24 is a continuous short-term period of time.
And, I most definitely believe that the return of Christ and the resurrection of the saints are future events.
I see the fulfillment of Matthew 24 in a span of time that is ~2000 years in length - starting circa 70 A.D. and ending in our future. I do not believe that the detail-of-events being described in Matthew 24 is a continuous short-term period of time.
And, I most definitely believe that the return of Christ and the resurrection of the saints are future events.
1. So you are prepared to reject the very words of Christ in John 14:1-3?
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Where is God the Father's house? Is it not Heaven itself?
Then where are those mansions if not in Heaven itself?
And where did Christ go at His ascension if not to Heaven itself?
So where would this prepared place be if not in Heaven itself?
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
And did Christ not promise to come again for His own?
And would He not receive unto Himself His own?
And if He is in Heaven, where would His own be after He had come for them?
2. Also, before Christ comes WITH His saints and angels, the Church must (1) stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven and then (2) the Church -- the Bride of Christ -- must become the Lamb's Wife in Heaven. It is only after that that Christ descends to earth with His saints and angels.
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Where is God the Father's house? Is it not Heaven itself?
Then where are those mansions if not in Heaven itself?
And where did Christ go at His ascension if not to Heaven itself?
So where would this prepared place be if not in Heaven itself?
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
And did Christ not promise to come again for His own?
And would He not receive unto Himself His own?
And if He is in Heaven, where would His own be after He had come for them?
2. Also, before Christ comes WITH His saints and angels, the Church must (1) stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven and then (2) the Church -- the Bride of Christ -- must become the Lamb's Wife in Heaven. It is only after that that Christ descends to earth with His saints and angels.
G
They would have known - except, they were listening to the pharisees-of-the-day - who had corrupted the scriptures - by means of their own interpretation - until no one knew what the scriptures really actually said... ( because they did not study the scriptures enough for themselves; but rather, accepted someone else's ideas without question )
Hmmmm -- kinda sounds like today...
Hmmmm -- kinda sounds like today...
SG you don't think the blessed hope is Christ's return and the glorification of our sinful bodies to be as He is. I am not saying anything about the rapture, there is a gathering together of the saints/elect and in this event we will be changed and be with Him forever after this. I John 3:1-3 "See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure."
These Scripture shows that Christ has not returned in any way in 70 A.D. I John was written in 85-95 A.D. 15 to 25 years after 70 A.D. Has anyone here seen Him? I haven't. Not only that but read what it says after that "And anyone who thus hopes in Him purifies himself as He is pure." The hope or blessed hope is two fold, it is in His return that we shall see and be like Him when we see Him. This promise is to all believers died or alive.
I Corinthians 15:50-58 "I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain."
Matthew 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
It seems to me that the blessed hope is His coming with our glorification and we are to encouage one another with this future event. Here's the Scriptures that I do not understand. The Day of the Lord, is a surprises to the world they are saying peace and security when it comes. Matthew says that the Lord is coming back after the tribulation of those days, so I do not see how the world could be saying peace and security when there is great tribulation and we will obtain salvation. What is our complete salvation? Our glorification, so these Scriptures throw me off.
I Thessalonians 4:13-18 5:1-11 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."
5:1Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.11 Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing."
Paul encouaged the Thessalonians to keep encouraging each other about this future event and he called it the Day of the Lord and it involves our gathering together to be with the Lord and sudden destruction on the world or those in darkness and the Day of the Lord will not surprise us. Is it because we are waiting for it or it's our hope or blessed hope? to be like Him in our glorified bodies or our dwelling in heaven. Paul calls this earthly body a tent and Jesus said He was going to prepare a dwelling for us in His Father's house that He called a mansion. On earth we dwell in a tent, when we are with the Lord it is a mansion in comparison.
All I know is that He is coming back we will meet Him in the air/clouds and be changed
These Scripture shows that Christ has not returned in any way in 70 A.D. I John was written in 85-95 A.D. 15 to 25 years after 70 A.D. Has anyone here seen Him? I haven't. Not only that but read what it says after that "And anyone who thus hopes in Him purifies himself as He is pure." The hope or blessed hope is two fold, it is in His return that we shall see and be like Him when we see Him. This promise is to all believers died or alive.
I Corinthians 15:50-58 "I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain."
Matthew 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
It seems to me that the blessed hope is His coming with our glorification and we are to encouage one another with this future event. Here's the Scriptures that I do not understand. The Day of the Lord, is a surprises to the world they are saying peace and security when it comes. Matthew says that the Lord is coming back after the tribulation of those days, so I do not see how the world could be saying peace and security when there is great tribulation and we will obtain salvation. What is our complete salvation? Our glorification, so these Scriptures throw me off.
I Thessalonians 4:13-18 5:1-11 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."
5:1Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.11 Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing."
Paul encouaged the Thessalonians to keep encouraging each other about this future event and he called it the Day of the Lord and it involves our gathering together to be with the Lord and sudden destruction on the world or those in darkness and the Day of the Lord will not surprise us. Is it because we are waiting for it or it's our hope or blessed hope? to be like Him in our glorified bodies or our dwelling in heaven. Paul calls this earthly body a tent and Jesus said He was going to prepare a dwelling for us in His Father's house that He called a mansion. On earth we dwell in a tent, when we are with the Lord it is a mansion in comparison.
All I know is that He is coming back we will meet Him in the air/clouds and be changed