PreTrib Rapture Moment 5: What Does Catholicism Teach? - Teaching by Bryan Denlinger
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Okay I think I see what you are alluding to and why you think the way you do in regard to the timing of the rapture. I see the words "Clouds" and "Trumpet."
But did it not occur to you Peter that there is a trumpet at the Rapture and a trumpet at the Second Coming also? I mean just because there are trumpets sounding at both events does not make those two events one and the same.
If the rapture does occur after the tribulation like you say it does, then who populates the Millennial Kingdom?
You see, at the rapture every Church Age saint both dead and living receives their glorified body. And ALL who participate in the rapture will receive their new glorified body.
And if all the ungodly are judged and cast into Hell at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, well then who is able to populate the Millennial Kingdom? Since by your reasoning Peter, only the Saints with their glorified bodies will be entering into the Millennial Kingdom. And of course that's not true. But that is just one issue and problem with your post trib. view of the rapture. It doesn't work Peter.
The Rapture or Translation of all Saints cannot occur after the Tribulation, because it would obviously result in all saints receiving their new glorified bodies, and therefore, leaving none to populate the Millennial Kingdom.
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. - Revelation 11:1-19 (King James Bible)
Now Peter, I gave all of Revelation 11 and I did not see the word "Trumpet" any where in that whole Chapter. Now I saw "Cloud" and "Dead," but I did not see "Trumpet" anywhere in Revelation 11. Now the Rapture that took place in Revelation 11, was the Rapture of Moses and Elijah, the two witnesses. As can clearly be seen just by reading the context. By reading all of Revelation 11.
PeterT, it is not an illusion. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is Bible Doctrine. Did you know that Enoch is a picture and type of the Rapture?
And let me ask you did Enoch have to go through the Flood? No. Enoch was taken out long before God poured out His judgment on the world.
And I gave you Scripture Peter, but you still seem to not understand that the time of Jacob's trouble is not for the Church, the Body of Christ. It is for the Nation of Israel. To bring them into correction ( See Jeremiah 30). In the time of Jacob's trouble, there is no eternal security (See Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10). In the time of Jacob's trouble, faith is not enough to save you. You need also works:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? - James 2:15-20 (King James Bible)
Now let me ask you Peter, right now in the Church Age, are we saved by our works? Do we have to have faith AND works to be saved in this dispensation which is the Church Age or the Dispensation of Grace?
Not according to what Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, Galatians 3:10-11, and Titus 3:5.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9( King James Bible)
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Romans 4:5 (King James Bible)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. - Galatians 3:10-11 (King James Bible)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; - Titus 3:5 (King James Bible)
Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, Galatians 3:10-11, and Titus 3:5 are aimed doctrinally at the Church Age. While James 2 is doctrinally for the time of Jacob's trouble.
And that is why Paul emphasizes Faith WITHOUT Works.
While James Emphasizes Faith AND Works.
So again, we can see two different dispensations here. Peter, you have to rightly divide the word of truth.
Now are you starting to see the mess you can get in Peter, when you do not rightly divide the word of truth?
I mean if we are saved by faith alone and without works in the Church Age (This current Dispensation), then what makes you think that we Christians are going to have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble where a totally different Gospel is in effect. A Gospel of Faith AND Works? (Again, see James 2 & also Matthew 24:13).
But did it not occur to you Peter that there is a trumpet at the Rapture and a trumpet at the Second Coming also? I mean just because there are trumpets sounding at both events does not make those two events one and the same.
If the rapture does occur after the tribulation like you say it does, then who populates the Millennial Kingdom?
You see, at the rapture every Church Age saint both dead and living receives their glorified body. And ALL who participate in the rapture will receive their new glorified body.
And if all the ungodly are judged and cast into Hell at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, well then who is able to populate the Millennial Kingdom? Since by your reasoning Peter, only the Saints with their glorified bodies will be entering into the Millennial Kingdom. And of course that's not true. But that is just one issue and problem with your post trib. view of the rapture. It doesn't work Peter.
The Rapture or Translation of all Saints cannot occur after the Tribulation, because it would obviously result in all saints receiving their new glorified bodies, and therefore, leaving none to populate the Millennial Kingdom.
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. - Revelation 11:1-19 (King James Bible)
Now Peter, I gave all of Revelation 11 and I did not see the word "Trumpet" any where in that whole Chapter. Now I saw "Cloud" and "Dead," but I did not see "Trumpet" anywhere in Revelation 11. Now the Rapture that took place in Revelation 11, was the Rapture of Moses and Elijah, the two witnesses. As can clearly be seen just by reading the context. By reading all of Revelation 11.
PeterT, it is not an illusion. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is Bible Doctrine. Did you know that Enoch is a picture and type of the Rapture?
And let me ask you did Enoch have to go through the Flood? No. Enoch was taken out long before God poured out His judgment on the world.
And I gave you Scripture Peter, but you still seem to not understand that the time of Jacob's trouble is not for the Church, the Body of Christ. It is for the Nation of Israel. To bring them into correction ( See Jeremiah 30). In the time of Jacob's trouble, there is no eternal security (See Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10). In the time of Jacob's trouble, faith is not enough to save you. You need also works:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? - James 2:15-20 (King James Bible)
Now let me ask you Peter, right now in the Church Age, are we saved by our works? Do we have to have faith AND works to be saved in this dispensation which is the Church Age or the Dispensation of Grace?
Not according to what Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, Galatians 3:10-11, and Titus 3:5.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9( King James Bible)
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Romans 4:5 (King James Bible)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. - Galatians 3:10-11 (King James Bible)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; - Titus 3:5 (King James Bible)
Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, Galatians 3:10-11, and Titus 3:5 are aimed doctrinally at the Church Age. While James 2 is doctrinally for the time of Jacob's trouble.
And that is why Paul emphasizes Faith WITHOUT Works.
While James Emphasizes Faith AND Works.
So again, we can see two different dispensations here. Peter, you have to rightly divide the word of truth.
Now are you starting to see the mess you can get in Peter, when you do not rightly divide the word of truth?
I mean if we are saved by faith alone and without works in the Church Age (This current Dispensation), then what makes you think that we Christians are going to have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble where a totally different Gospel is in effect. A Gospel of Faith AND Works? (Again, see James 2 & also Matthew 24:13).
M
PeterT, if you cannot discern that the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ are two different events. Then what you need to do is humble yourself, and go read some books by older men of God who have written on subject of the Rapture.
Your ignorance of this truth is just astounding. ChosenbyHim: Do you realize that you are telling a man twice your age to 'read some books by older men?? Peter T is correct!! There is NOTHING in the Bible about any pre trib rapture. IF you think there is, then the scriptures you are using are taken out of context and you sorely lack Biblical understanding.
Do not let the RCC dictate THEIR truth as HIS truth. It is one of the ways that Satan has deceived many...by getting them to believe what a man or group of men say is truth and twisting scripture so as to support their deception.
You cannot give even one scripture, that taken in context supports the THEORY (which, bTW was non-existant until the 1800's!!) of PRE TriB rapture.
Maggie
Your ignorance of this truth is just astounding. ChosenbyHim: Do you realize that you are telling a man twice your age to 'read some books by older men?? Peter T is correct!! There is NOTHING in the Bible about any pre trib rapture. IF you think there is, then the scriptures you are using are taken out of context and you sorely lack Biblical understanding.
Do not let the RCC dictate THEIR truth as HIS truth. It is one of the ways that Satan has deceived many...by getting them to believe what a man or group of men say is truth and twisting scripture so as to support their deception.
You cannot give even one scripture, that taken in context supports the THEORY (which, bTW was non-existant until the 1800's!!) of PRE TriB rapture.
Maggie
B
There is no pre tribulation. If you say there is a pre tribulation rapture, I want to see it.
What I want to see is something that is clear and right to the point such as "Before the great tribulation, Jesus comes to gather his elect." I'd like it to be as clear as the post tribulation is that is found in Matt 24:16. Can you do that for me?
What I want to see is something that is clear and right to the point such as "Before the great tribulation, Jesus comes to gather his elect." I'd like it to be as clear as the post tribulation is that is found in Matt 24:16. Can you do that for me?
B
Chosenbyhim
Let me get this clear. You said that we get raptured up before the tribulation at the sound of the last trumpet as described in 1 Cor 15:51-52. After we are raptured there, Jacob's trouble (great tribulation, Dan 12) commences. In a nutshell, is that hat you are saying? Just asking for a basic yes or no answer.
Let me get this clear. You said that we get raptured up before the tribulation at the sound of the last trumpet as described in 1 Cor 15:51-52. After we are raptured there, Jacob's trouble (great tribulation, Dan 12) commences. In a nutshell, is that hat you are saying? Just asking for a basic yes or no answer.
Trouble is the 1Cor.15 event says its the "last trumpet" to be blown. The last one. There is no more trumpets to be blown after the 1Cor.15 event. Yet, after the tribulation......
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of thosedays shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and thestars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shallall the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming inthe clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send hisangels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HISELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
A trumpet is being blown. Why you say? Because the 1Cor.15 event does not happen till after the trib period. Its the gathering
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of thosedays shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and thestars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shallall the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming inthe clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send hisangels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HISELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
A trumpet is being blown. Why you say? Because the 1Cor.15 event does not happen till after the trib period. Its the gathering
Your argument does not hold water. I showed you clearly why a Post-Trib. Rapture cannot be possible at all. Right now in the Church Age, we are saved by grace. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5).
But in the time of Jacob's trouble, it is faith plus works. Again, see James 2:17, Matthew 24:13, and Revelation 14:9-12.
So what sense does it make for us Christians who are saved today by grace through faith alone, to have to go through a different Dispensation where salvation is merited through faith and works? It would be like saying, "well we were saved by grace through faith about 2 months ago, but ever since the antichrist showed up, we Christians are now saved by faith plus works."
I mean think about your reasoning for a minute Peter. All down through the Church Age, every Christian for the last 2,000 plus years were saved by grace through faith. And now your telling me that we will be the only exception? Again, RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth.
And no it is not delusional to be dispensational. Do you know what's delusional? Looking down through Church History, and knowing that Christians for the last 2,000 years have been saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9) and then to think that the Christians living from 1970 and on, are a special group of Christians, because yippee, they'll get to go through the time of Jacob's trouble!
And that is basically what your implying Peter. So your reasoning is delusional.
When you rightly divide the word of truth and when your dispensational. You know that born again Christians have eternal Security in the Church Age because they are sealed by the Holy Ghost (Eph. 1:13 & Eph. 4:30) and they are members of the Body of Christ, they are bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh ( See 1 Cor. 12:27 & Eph. 5:30). And you cannot fall out of the Body of Christ. Jesus does not cut parts of His body off. And if we are believe not, yet he abideth Faithful, for He cannot Deny Himself ( 2 Tim. 2:13). Now Peter, you seem to still not know what the time of Jacob's trouble is for. It is to bring Israel into correction. The time of Jacob's trouble is not for the Church. It is for the Nation of Israel. A different system of salvation is instituted in the time of Jacob's trouble. And once we are out of here, once we get caught in the Rapture to meet the Lord Jesus in the air, that is when the time of Jacob's trouble will start.
For the antichrist to be on this earth and the mark of the beast to be in effect, the Body of Christ has to first be gone:
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. - 2 Thessalonians 2:5-12 (King James Bible)
The he who now letteth that is preventing the antichrist to show up on the scene and platform is the body of Christ.
And by the way Peter,
There does not have to be one single word about before the tribulation. Let me tell you something Peter, God does not have to write out the specifics on every little thing in the Bible. He told us to study and to be a workman and to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Tim. 2:15).
Just with a bit more study, some common sense and some good logic, you should be able to comprehend that the Rapture is indeed Before the tribulation.
The rapture or Catching away of the Body of Christ cannot happen after the tribulation. It has to be before the tribulation. And it is before the tribulation. Go read my earlier posts. Christians will not go though the time of Jacob's trouble. The time of Jacob's trouble is to bring Israel into correction ( See Jeremiah 30). The time of Jacob's trouble is when God will pour out His wrath upon the earth. And the Body of Christ will not be here for that time period.
No, PeterT is wrong. He is not correct in regard to the issue of the Rapture. He is as wrong as he could be. Okay, by your very same standard Maggie, where is there anything in the Bible about a Post-Trib. Rapture?
Well, can you tell me?
No, the Scriptures were not taken out of context. They were rightly divided. It's called comparing Scripture with Scripture. Well, Maggie I have the Biblical understanding and discernment to be able to tell that the Body of Christ will not have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble when God's wrath will be poured out in measure upon this earth.
In pertaining to the Roman Catholic church, That's what you Post-Trib believers do. You let them dictate what you will believe about the Rapture. Did you know that the Roman Catholic church believes in a Post Trib. Rapture? So your views as well as PeterT's line up with Roman Catholic doctrine. And that's just the way it is Maggie. Well Maggie, Satan has risen up some false prophets today who are teaching the lie of a post trib. Rapture. False prophets like Steven Anderson who came out with his "After the Tribulation" film. And false prophets like Steven Anderson who teach the lie of the post trib. rapture will deceive you and get you to stop looking for the glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ. And instead they will get you looking for the antichrist instead. And you will lose your crown and rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Both you and PeterT better consider your position on this issue and you better start studying and rightly dividing the word of truth.
Maggie, the Pre-tribulation Rapture is not a theory. It is Bible Doctrine. And I have given Scriptures, in the context, that clearly suport a Pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ. So whether you like it or not Maggie, the Rapture is before the time of Jacob's trouble.
No, the pre-trib. Rapture was not developed in the 1800s. You better be careful who you let yourself listen to. The Pre-Trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ was taught in the second century.
"so that, through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgments to come" - Clement (AD.150 –AD. 215)
"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." - Ephraem the Syrian (AD. 306- AD. 373).
And besides that, the pre-trib. Rapture is taught in the Holy Scriptures. The King James Bible clearly teaches a pre-millennial Coming and Reign of Jesus Christ.
Well, can you tell me?
No, the Scriptures were not taken out of context. They were rightly divided. It's called comparing Scripture with Scripture. Well, Maggie I have the Biblical understanding and discernment to be able to tell that the Body of Christ will not have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble when God's wrath will be poured out in measure upon this earth.
In pertaining to the Roman Catholic church, That's what you Post-Trib believers do. You let them dictate what you will believe about the Rapture. Did you know that the Roman Catholic church believes in a Post Trib. Rapture? So your views as well as PeterT's line up with Roman Catholic doctrine. And that's just the way it is Maggie. Well Maggie, Satan has risen up some false prophets today who are teaching the lie of a post trib. Rapture. False prophets like Steven Anderson who came out with his "After the Tribulation" film. And false prophets like Steven Anderson who teach the lie of the post trib. rapture will deceive you and get you to stop looking for the glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ. And instead they will get you looking for the antichrist instead. And you will lose your crown and rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Both you and PeterT better consider your position on this issue and you better start studying and rightly dividing the word of truth.
Maggie, the Pre-tribulation Rapture is not a theory. It is Bible Doctrine. And I have given Scriptures, in the context, that clearly suport a Pre-trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ. So whether you like it or not Maggie, the Rapture is before the time of Jacob's trouble.
No, the pre-trib. Rapture was not developed in the 1800s. You better be careful who you let yourself listen to. The Pre-Trib. Rapture of the Body of Christ was taught in the second century.
"so that, through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgments to come" - Clement (AD.150 –AD. 215)
"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." - Ephraem the Syrian (AD. 306- AD. 373).
And besides that, the pre-trib. Rapture is taught in the Holy Scriptures. The King James Bible clearly teaches a pre-millennial Coming and Reign of Jesus Christ.
"Last Trumpet"? Did you know out of the 61 times the word "Trumpet" appears in the King James Bible, not one of them is preceded by the word:"Last?"
In other words, the phrase "Last Trumpet" does not even appear one time in the King James Holy Bible.
Now the phrase "last trump" appears. It appears one time and it is in 1 Corinthians 15:52.
So I do not know which version of the Bible you are reading Wall, but in my King James Bible the phrase: "Last Trumpet" is nowhere to be found.
In other words, the phrase "Last Trumpet" does not even appear one time in the King James Holy Bible.
Now the phrase "last trump" appears. It appears one time and it is in 1 Corinthians 15:52.
So I do not know which version of the Bible you are reading Wall, but in my King James Bible the phrase: "Last Trumpet" is nowhere to be found.
Not according to scripture
1 CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be changed.
scripture points out the time of the first resurrection,when the dead shall be raised. It cannot be denied as it is written in the1Cor.15 scripture. Verse 42. Its right there.
REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPEDTHE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER,but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Here again we see the first resurrection. What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to the first resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. So if those who are in the 1st resurrection had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.
1 CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be changed.
scripture points out the time of the first resurrection,when the dead shall be raised. It cannot be denied as it is written in the1Cor.15 scripture. Verse 42. Its right there.
REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPEDTHE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER,but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Here again we see the first resurrection. What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to the first resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. So if those who are in the 1st resurrection had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.
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Yes according to Scripture. You have to rightly divide the word of truth.
Yeah and that resurrection is referring to the Rapture. The Pre-Tribulation Catching away of the Body of Christ.
Well first off, I must say Wall, that at first glance, it would seem that that passage of Scripture would seem to support that the Resurrection and Rapture must take place after the tribulation. But again, that is simply not the case. You see, by simply studying the Scriptures further, comparing Scripture with Scripture, and rightly dividing the word of truth, you'll see that the phrase: "first resurrection" which is used in Revelation 20:4-6 is not referring to the specific timing of this marvelous and wonderful event. But rather it is speaking of the culmination of this event.
The First Resurrection is a cumulative event. Technically the very "first" resurrection was when the Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the third day and the Old Testament Saints also rose from the dead with Him.
[SUP]51 [/SUP]And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
[SUP]52 [/SUP]And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[SUP]53 [/SUP]And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. - Matthew 27:51-54 (King James Bible)
So again, it can be said that that was the very first general Resurrection was when Jesus Christ arose from the dead and the Old Testament Saints with Him. The next major resurrection being at the Catching Away or Rapture of the Body of Christ. Plus. the resurrection of the Two Witnesses (Moses and Elijah) in Revelation 11.
So the term and phrase: "first resurrection" is clearly talking about the General Culmination of this event. Remember, the First Resurrection has Three Parts.
1st Part: Resurrection of the Old Testament Saints and the Lord Jesus Christ ( Matthew 27:52-53)
2nd Part: Resurrection of the dead in Christ at the Rapture of the Body of Christ ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16 & 1 Corinthians 15:52).
3rd Part: The Resurrection of the dead Tribulation Saints and Martyrs at the end of the Tribulation or Time of Jacob's trouble ( Revelation 20:4)
The "First Resurrection" has three parts to it. It is a successive and cumulative event and phenomenon.
And that is why it is so important to compare Scripture with Scripture. Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little. (Isaiah 28:10)
You see Wall, the "first resurrection" is an ongoing event, that concludes in Revelation 20:4-6. So that passage of Scripture that you gave me does not prove a Post Trib. Rapture.
The Scriptures as a whole teach a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The Tribulation or Time of Jacob's trouble is for unbelieving Israel. It is NOT for saved Christians.
The Jews are supposed to be in unbelief right now according to Romans 11. And that is the whole point and purpose of the time of Jacob's trouble.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: - Isaiah 28:10 (King James Bible)
Yeah and that resurrection is referring to the Rapture. The Pre-Tribulation Catching away of the Body of Christ.
Well first off, I must say Wall, that at first glance, it would seem that that passage of Scripture would seem to support that the Resurrection and Rapture must take place after the tribulation. But again, that is simply not the case. You see, by simply studying the Scriptures further, comparing Scripture with Scripture, and rightly dividing the word of truth, you'll see that the phrase: "first resurrection" which is used in Revelation 20:4-6 is not referring to the specific timing of this marvelous and wonderful event. But rather it is speaking of the culmination of this event.
The First Resurrection is a cumulative event. Technically the very "first" resurrection was when the Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the third day and the Old Testament Saints also rose from the dead with Him.
[SUP]51 [/SUP]And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
[SUP]52 [/SUP]And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[SUP]53 [/SUP]And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. - Matthew 27:51-54 (King James Bible)
So again, it can be said that that was the very first general Resurrection was when Jesus Christ arose from the dead and the Old Testament Saints with Him. The next major resurrection being at the Catching Away or Rapture of the Body of Christ. Plus. the resurrection of the Two Witnesses (Moses and Elijah) in Revelation 11.
So the term and phrase: "first resurrection" is clearly talking about the General Culmination of this event. Remember, the First Resurrection has Three Parts.
1st Part: Resurrection of the Old Testament Saints and the Lord Jesus Christ ( Matthew 27:52-53)
2nd Part: Resurrection of the dead in Christ at the Rapture of the Body of Christ ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16 & 1 Corinthians 15:52).
3rd Part: The Resurrection of the dead Tribulation Saints and Martyrs at the end of the Tribulation or Time of Jacob's trouble ( Revelation 20:4)
The "First Resurrection" has three parts to it. It is a successive and cumulative event and phenomenon.
And that is why it is so important to compare Scripture with Scripture. Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little. (Isaiah 28:10)
You see Wall, the "first resurrection" is an ongoing event, that concludes in Revelation 20:4-6. So that passage of Scripture that you gave me does not prove a Post Trib. Rapture.
The Scriptures as a whole teach a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The Tribulation or Time of Jacob's trouble is for unbelieving Israel. It is NOT for saved Christians.
The Jews are supposed to be in unbelief right now according to Romans 11. And that is the whole point and purpose of the time of Jacob's trouble.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: - Isaiah 28:10 (King James Bible)
REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
So let me get this straight. "You" are now saying the 1st resurrection happened when Christ rose from the dead. That's your opinion. Whats written in the Word about the 1st resurrection is in scripture above. Its right there. So I must ask. Do you believe those at the time of Christ confronted the beast?
So let me get this straight. "You" are now saying the 1st resurrection happened when Christ rose from the dead. That's your opinion. Whats written in the Word about the 1st resurrection is in scripture above. Its right there. So I must ask. Do you believe those at the time of Christ confronted the beast?
Are you so young in the Word?
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
trump
Greek Word: σάλπιγξ
Transliteration: salpinx
Phonetic Pronunciation:sal'-pinx
Root: perhaps from <G4535> (through the idea of quavering or reverberation)
Cross Reference: TDNT - 7:71,997
Part of Speech: n f
Vine's Words: Trump, Trumpet
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
trumpet 9
trump 2
[Total Count: 11]
perhaps from <G4535> (salos) (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); a trumpet :- trump (-et).
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
And now you know the rest of the story
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
trump
Greek Word: σάλπιγξ
Transliteration: salpinx
Phonetic Pronunciation:sal'-pinx
Root: perhaps from <G4535> (through the idea of quavering or reverberation)
Cross Reference: TDNT - 7:71,997
Part of Speech: n f
Vine's Words: Trump, Trumpet
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
trumpet 9
trump 2
[Total Count: 11]
perhaps from <G4535> (salos) (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); a trumpet :- trump (-et).
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
And now you know the rest of the story
Your just trying to get me goin by pointing out above scripture as to why your right and im wrong
1 COR. 3 [1] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. [2] I HAVE FED YOU WITH MILK, AND NOT WITH MEAT: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. [3] For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
HEBREWS 5 [12] For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. [13] FOR EVERY ONE THAT USETH MILK IS UNSKILFUL IN THE WORD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS: FOR HE IS A BABE. [14] But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
The two above new testament scriptures tell us we should be teachers of the word. It also tells us everyone that uses milk is unskilful in the word.
ISAIAH 28 [9] WHOM SHALL HE TEACH KNOWLEDGE? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? THEM THAT ARE WEANED FROM THE MILK, and drawn from the breasts.[10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:[11] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.[12] To whom he said, THIS IS THE REST wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and THIS IS THE REFRESHING: yet they would not hear.
In Hebrews 5 the scripture tells us we should be teachers of the Word but we dont understand, we are still just babes, milk drinkers. In Isaiah we see that those whom God will teach knowledge and whom he shall make to understand doctrine are those who are weaned from the milk. Who are these milk drinkers (verse 12) that dont understand doctrine? To whom he said this is the rest and the refreshing, but they refused to hear. Rest? Refreshing?
EXODUS 31 [15] Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.[16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.[17] It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and ON THE SEVENTH DAY HE RESTED, AND WAS REFRESHED.
Heres a scripture that speaks of a rest and a refreshing. And yes, you milk drinkers do refuse to hear that scripture.
GOT MILK?
1 COR. 3 [1] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. [2] I HAVE FED YOU WITH MILK, AND NOT WITH MEAT: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. [3] For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
HEBREWS 5 [12] For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. [13] FOR EVERY ONE THAT USETH MILK IS UNSKILFUL IN THE WORD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS: FOR HE IS A BABE. [14] But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
The two above new testament scriptures tell us we should be teachers of the word. It also tells us everyone that uses milk is unskilful in the word.
ISAIAH 28 [9] WHOM SHALL HE TEACH KNOWLEDGE? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? THEM THAT ARE WEANED FROM THE MILK, and drawn from the breasts.[10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:[11] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.[12] To whom he said, THIS IS THE REST wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and THIS IS THE REFRESHING: yet they would not hear.
In Hebrews 5 the scripture tells us we should be teachers of the Word but we dont understand, we are still just babes, milk drinkers. In Isaiah we see that those whom God will teach knowledge and whom he shall make to understand doctrine are those who are weaned from the milk. Who are these milk drinkers (verse 12) that dont understand doctrine? To whom he said this is the rest and the refreshing, but they refused to hear. Rest? Refreshing?
EXODUS 31 [15] Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.[16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.[17] It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and ON THE SEVENTH DAY HE RESTED, AND WAS REFRESHED.
Heres a scripture that speaks of a rest and a refreshing. And yes, you milk drinkers do refuse to hear that scripture.
GOT MILK?