Okay I think I see what you are alluding to and why you think the way you do in regard to the timing of the rapture. I see the words "Clouds" and "Trumpet."
But did it not occur to you Peter that there is a trumpet at the Rapture and a trumpet at the Second Coming also? I mean just because there are trumpets sounding at both events does not make those two events one and the same.
If the rapture does occur after the tribulation like you say it does, then who populates the Millennial Kingdom?
You see, at the rapture every Church Age saint both dead and living receives their glorified body. And ALL who participate in the rapture will receive their new glorified body.
And if all the ungodly are judged and cast into Hell at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, well then who is able to populate the Millennial Kingdom? Since by your reasoning Peter, only the Saints with their glorified bodies will be entering into the Millennial Kingdom. And of course that's not true. But that is just one issue and problem with your post trib. view of the rapture. It doesn't work Peter.
The Rapture or Translation of all Saints cannot occur after the Tribulation, because it would obviously result in all saints receiving their new glorified bodies, and therefore, leaving none to populate the Millennial Kingdom.
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. - Revelation 11:1-19 (King James Bible)
Now Peter, I gave all of Revelation 11 and I did not see the word "Trumpet" any where in that whole Chapter. Now I saw "Cloud" and "Dead," but I did not see "Trumpet" anywhere in Revelation 11. Now the Rapture that took place in Revelation 11, was the Rapture of Moses and Elijah, the two witnesses. As can clearly be seen just by reading the context. By reading all of Revelation 11.
PeterT, it is not an illusion. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is Bible Doctrine. Did you know that Enoch is a picture and type of the Rapture?
And let me ask you did Enoch have to go through the Flood? No. Enoch was taken out long before God poured out His judgment on the world.
And I gave you Scripture Peter, but you still seem to not understand that the time of Jacob's trouble is not for the Church, the Body of Christ. It is for the Nation of Israel. To bring them into correction ( See Jeremiah 30). In the time of Jacob's trouble, there is no eternal security (See Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10). In the time of Jacob's trouble, faith is not enough to save you. You need also works:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? - James 2:15-20 (King James Bible)
Now let me ask you Peter, right now in the Church Age, are we saved by our works? Do we have to have faith AND works to be saved in this dispensation which is the Church Age or the Dispensation of Grace?
Not according to what Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, Galatians 3:10-11, and Titus 3:5.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9( King James Bible)
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Romans 4:5 (King James Bible)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. - Galatians 3:10-11 (King James Bible)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; - Titus 3:5 (King James Bible)
Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, Galatians 3:10-11, and Titus 3:5 are aimed doctrinally at the Church Age. While James 2 is doctrinally for the time of Jacob's trouble.
And that is why Paul emphasizes Faith WITHOUT Works.
While James Emphasizes Faith AND Works.
So again, we can see two different dispensations here. Peter, you have to rightly divide the word of truth.
Now are you starting to see the mess you can get in Peter, when you do not rightly divide the word of truth?
I mean if we are saved by faith alone and without works in the Church Age (This current Dispensation), then what makes you think that we Christians are going to have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble where a totally different Gospel is in effect. A Gospel of Faith AND Works? (Again, see James 2 & also Matthew 24:13).