PreTrib Rapture Moment 5: What Does Catholicism Teach? - Teaching by Bryan Denlinger

[MaggieMye]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Therapture or Catching away of the Body of Christ cannot happen afterthe tribulation. It has to be before the tribulation. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Whosays and why??? [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Andit is before the tribulation. Go read my earlier posts. J[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]ustbecause YOU post that it is does not make it so and there are NOscriptures supporting that the tribulation will be AFTER the rapture.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]NONE.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Christianswill not go though the time of Jacob's trouble. The time of Jacob'strouble is to bring Israel into correction ( See Jeremiah 30). Thetime of Jacob's trouble is when God will pour out His wrath upon theearth. And the Body of Christ will not be here for that time period.[/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]1CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It issown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: [43] It is sown indishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it israised in power:
Nothinghere about PRE-tribulation
1COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep,but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of aneye, at the last trump: for the trumpet (notthe last trumpet) shall sound,and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall bechanged.Nothingabout Pre-Tribhere either
scripturepoints out the time of the first resurrection,when the dead shall beraised. It cannot be denied as it is written in the1Cor.15 scripture.Verse 42. Its right there.WeKNOW that there will be a rapture, it just won't be before thetribulation. Scripture does not support it. That concept did not evenexsist before the 1800's!! DO YOUR RESEARCH!! So were all thebelievers before 1800 Wrong???[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]TheFirst Resurrection is a cumulative event. Technically the very"first" resurrection was when the Lord Jesus Christ rosefrom the dead on the third day and the Old Testament Saints also rosefrom the dead with Him. [/FONT] Wrongagain!! The VERY first resurrection, was in the OT...Elisha, in 2Kings 8. And then the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP]resurrection was when Jesus brought Lazarus back to life (John 11).The resurrection of Christ was the THIRD, chronologically.

Read it for yourself in the BIBLE...and try a little humility. You are only 27 and are debating with people that have been studying God's word for longer than you have been alive. You cannot prove, using Scripture, that the tribulation is after the rapture because it is not IN scripture.
Do you not realize that IF you are part of the Real church of Christ, every believer will be DOING THE WORD OF GOD during the tribulation and souls will be won because of it?? Yes, some will die...but so what? IF they are a part of His Bride, their spiritual destination is a good thing and nothing is lost.
How long have you been a Christian? Born again? Born of God? Being led by the Spirit? Do you know what it means to be led by the Spirit? Just curious. Will you answer??
Maggie

 

[Abiding]

Maggie, not totally but mostly i was agreeing with you...isnt that scary

 

[Christabel]

Now the phrase "last trump" appears. It appears one time and it is in 1 Corinthians 15:52.

And you don't think the "last trump" means the same thing (the last trumpet)? And what's the King James Version have to do with anything?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

And you don't think the "last trump" means the same thing (the last trumpet)? And what's the King James Version have to do with anything?

Well Christabel, the Last Trump is not the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15. I mean just think about it, the seventh (7th) Trumpet is never called the Last Trump in Revelation or anywhere else in the whole Bible.

Also, the Last Trump sounds for a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52). While, the 7th Trumpet can be said to last for days. That is the 7th Trumpet sounds for days (See Revelation 10:7).

Well Christabel, the King James Authorized Version is the 100% pure and infallible and inerrant word of God. The more you study the King James Authorized Bible. The more better you will be prepared to begin to rightly divide the word of truth.

Because in order to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15), you must first have the word of truth.

And the more you get acquainted with one Bible, then (like I mentioned before), you will be better prepared and encouraged to rightly divide the word of God.

 

[peterT]

Well Christabel, the Last Trump is not the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15. I mean just think about it, the seventh (7th) Trumpet is never called the Last Trump in Revelation or anywhere else in the whole Bible.

Also, the Last Trump sounds for a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52). While, the 7th Trumpet can be said to last for days. That is the 7th Trumpet sounds for days (See Revelation 10:7).

Well Christabel, the King James Authorized Version is the 100% pure and infallible and inerrant word of God. The more you study the King James Authorized Bible. The more better you will be prepared to begin to rightly divide the word of truth.

Because in order to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15), you must first have the word of truth.

And the more you get acquainted with one Bible, then (like I mentioned before), you will be better prepared and encouraged to rightly divide the word of God.

You said you would show a pre-tribulation rapture/coming before the tribulation

And you quoted theses verses

1 Thessalonians 4;16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

But not a word about before the tribulation in them verses

“Because in order to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15), you must first have the word of truth.”

So rightly divide the word of truth brother, for you still haven’t shown anything about before the tribulation as yet.

You said you would show an event "THE EVENT" were Jesus comes and gets us before the tribulation.

So rightly divide the word of truth brother and show it..

But one good thing you have shown determination, but pity you are Not working for the Lord on this one.

I think A pre-tribulation believing Christian is missing the hole spirit if the sayings of the bible.

There is an event in the Bible for everything

There is an event for the birth of Jesus. Three kings, born in a manger etc etc.

There is an event for the death of Jesus. Raised from the dead after three days etc etc.

There is an event for the 1000 year reign and we shall reign on the earth. etc etc.

There is an event for New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven etc etc.

There is an event at the last trumpet, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible etc etc.

But there is an event for Jesus coming Immediately after the tribulation, the angels gather the elect, one shall be taken and the other left etc etc.Matt24

But there is NO event in the Bible were Jesus comes BEFOR the tribulation.

 

[Earlmayknowornot]

Peter T I find pretrib from Genesis to revelation. Show me in scripture where people that trusted God endured His wrath. I will show you where those that trusted escaped His wrath.

 

[peterT]

Peter T I find pretrib from Genesis to revelation. Show me in scripture where people that trusted God endured His wrath. I will show you where those that trusted escaped His wrath.

people that trust in God don’t endured His wrath

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

And there we are stand on the sea of glass AFTER getting the victory over the beast Then the seven angels having the seven last plagues pour out the wrath of God upon the people that have the mark of the beast.

Rv15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great andmarvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filledup the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and overhis mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, havingthe harps of God.
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having theseven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girdedwith golden girdles.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory ofGod, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till theseven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

As you can see we are in the heavens AFTER getting the victory over the beast and his mark and before the wrath is poured out on the people that have the mark of the beast


Rv16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon theearth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had themark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat ofthe beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tonguesfor pain,

And where is the pre-trib all through Genesis to revelation?
Tell all the prophets and disciples that died for their faith, that there is no tasting and trying and no tribulation
.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

You said you would show a pre-tribulation rapture/coming before the tribulation

And you quoted theses verses

1 Thessalonians 4;16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

But not a word about before the tribulation in them verses

“Because in order to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15), you must first have the word of truth.”

So rightly divide the word of truth brother, for you still haven’t shown anything about before the tribulation as yet.

Oh yes I did. I already showed you from Scripture, why the Body of Christ cannot be on the Earth during the time of Jacob's trouble. We are not appointed to wrath ( See 1 Thess. 5:9)

Also, it is the time of Jacob's trouble. It is NOT the time of the Church's trouble. PeterT, you need to compare Scripture with Scripture.

You said you would show an event "THE EVENT" were Jesus comes and gets us before the tribulation.

So rightly divide the word of truth brother and show it..

But one good thing you have shown determination, but pity you are Not working for the Lord on this one.

I think A pre-tribulation believing Christian is missing the hole spirit if the sayings of the bible.

Oh yes I am. And I already showed you why Christians are not going to be here in the time of Jacob's trouble. In the time of Jacob's trouble, you have faith AND works:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Do you see that? Faith AND Works.

Now PeterT, are saved today by faith and our works?

Obvious answer is no:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Bible)

In the Church Age, we are saved by grace through faith only.

In the time of Jacob's trouble, things change. People are saved a different way in the time of Jacob's trouble. Again, it is faith AND works in the Time of Jacob's trouble or Tribulation.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. - James 2:14-17 (King James Bible)

And who is the book of James written to?1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

The book of James is aimed Doctrinally at a Jew in the time of Jacob's trouble.

Peter, Rightly divide the word of truth.

There is an event in the Bible for everything

There is an event for the birth of Jesus. Three kings, born in a manger etc etc.

There is an event for the death of Jesus. Raised from the dead after three days etc etc.

There is an event for the 1000 year reign and we shall reign on the earth. etc etc.

There is an event for New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven etc etc.

There is an event at the last trumpet, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible etc etc.

[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. - 1 Corinthians 15:52 (King James Bible)
Now where in that passage do you see "Last Trumpet?"

Guess how many times the phrase "Last Trumpet" appears in the King James Bible?: 0

But there is an event for Jesus coming Immediately after the tribulation, the angels gather the elect, one shall be taken and the other left etc etc.Matt24

Well yes, and that event is called the Second Coming or Second Advent of Jesus Christ. The Second Coming of Jesus Christ is a different event than the Rapture. The Rapture and the Second Coming are NOT the same event. They are two totally different events.

But there is NO event in the Bible were Jesus comes BEFOR the tribulation.

Yes there is. It is called the Rapture or the Catching away of the Saints. Or the Translation of the Saints in the Church Age. Read 1 Cor. 15:51-54 and 1 Thess. 4:16-18.

 

[peterT]

Oh yes I did. I already showed you from Scripture, why the Body of Christ cannot be on the Earth during the time of Jacob's trouble. We are not appointed to wrath ( See 1 Thess. 5:9)

Also, it is the time of Jacob's trouble. It is NOT the time of the Church's trouble. PeterT, you need to compare Scripture with Scripture.



Oh yes I am. And I already showed you why Christians are not going to be here in the time of Jacob's trouble. In the time of Jacob's trouble, you have faith AND works:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Do you see that? Faith AND Works.

Now PeterT, are saved today by faith and our works?

Obvious answer is no:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Bible)

In the Church Age, we are saved by grace through faith only.

In the time of Jacob's trouble, things change. People are saved a different way in the time of Jacob's trouble. Again, it is faith AND works in the Time of Jacob's trouble or Tribulation.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. - James 2:14-17 (King James Bible)

And who is the book of James written to?1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

The book of James is aimed Doctrinally at a Jew in the time of Jacob's trouble.

Peter, Rightly divide the word of truth.




[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. - 1 Corinthians 15:52 (King James Bible)
Now where in that passage do you see "Last Trumpet?"

Guess how many times the phrase "Last Trumpet" appears in the King James Bible?: 0




Well yes, and that event is called the Second Coming or Second Advent of Jesus Christ. The Second Coming of Jesus Christ is a different event than the Rapture. The Rapture and the Second Coming are NOT the same event. They are two totally different events.




Yes there is. It is called the Rapture or the Catching away of the Saints. Or the Translation of the Saints in the Church Age. Read 1 Cor. 15:51-54 and 1 Thess. 4:16-18.

So you can tell me why there is a pre-trib, but you can’t show me where?

Telling me there is a pre-trib doesn’t count; you got to show me bro

And again all the verses you just quoted say nothing about before the tribulation.

NOT A WORD

 

[ChosenbyHim]

So you can tell me why there is a pre-trib, but you can’t show me where?

That is the whole point Peter! I already showed you why the Rapture is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Whether you like it or not. Your argument for the Post Trib. Rapture theory has been refuted.

Telling me there is a pre-trib doesn’t count; you got to show me bro

Sure it counts Peter, if I back it up with Scripture. And if I compare Scripture with Scripture like I have done. Than it does count.

I clearly showed you why the Body of Christ cannot be here on this earth during the Time of Jacob's trouble. The Time of Jacob's trouble is not for the Christian in the Body of Christ.

It is not for the Church. It is for Israel. It is for Jacob. Again, start comparing Scripture with Scripture.

And again all the verses you just quoted say nothing about before the tribulation.

NOT A WORD

The ones you quote (i.e. Matt. 24) talk about the time of Jacob's trouble. And the ones which I shared with you (i.e. 1 Thess. 4:16-18, and 1 Cor. 15:51-54) point to the rapture or translation of the born again Christians in the Church Age.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

PeterT, if you cannot discern that the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ are two different events. Then what you need to do is humble yourself, and go read some books by older men of God who have written on subject of the Rapture.

Your ignorance of this truth is just astounding.

I recommend you getting the book: How To Teach Dispensational Truth - By Dr. Peter Ruckman.

Also you may want to check out Doug Stauffer's work: One Book Rightly Divided.

Have you even watched the whole video? Or are you like some of these Christians on here who don't take the time or due diligence to hear the matter, but they will tell you what their opinion is anyways even though they did not take the time to watch and listen to the video. There is a passage in the Bible that points out those kind of people:

He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. - Proverbs 18:13 (King James Bible)

There are passages in the Bible showing that Jesus will come back for His church. Again Peter, you need to study the Bible dispensationally and you need to compare Scripture with Scripture. You have not answered the questions which I asked you in the other thread. I am still waiting on your answers.

The roots of Rapture Theology only go back as far as John Nelson Darby in the mid 19th century. Before that - it was never taught for the first 1800 years of the Church's existence.

By the way - Karl Keating soundly defeated Peter Ruckman in a 1987 debate.

 

[peterT]

That is the whole point Peter! I already showed you why the Rapture is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Whether you like it or not. Your argument for the Post Trib. Rapture theory has been refuted.




Sure it counts Peter, if I back it up with Scripture. And if I compare Scripture with Scripture like I have done. Than it does count.

I clearly showed you why the Body of Christ cannot be here on this earth during the Time of Jacob's trouble. The Time of Jacob's trouble is not for the Christian in the Body of Christ.

It is not for the Church. It is for Israel. It is for Jacob. Again, start comparing Scripture with Scripture.



The ones you quote (i.e. Matt. 24) talk about the time of Jacob's trouble. And the ones which I shared with you (i.e. 1 Thess. 4:16-18, and 1 Cor. 15:51-54) point to the rapture or translation of the born again Christians in the Church Age.

Show me the EVENT where Jesus comes before the tribulation. There is an EVENT for everything else so show me the event.

You can’t let the bible speak for itself can you?

Without your interpretation of scripture, you would never see a pre-trib rapture in the Bible.

You take about faith and works.

The only extra works you have to do in the tribulation is NOT take the mark of the beast, and if you want to call that works go ahead because you will probably have to work hard not to take it anyway.

Salvation is the same for everyone, it’s the same for Christians that didn’t live to see the tribulation and it’s the same for the ones that do see tribulation, the only difference is you will have to work hard not to take the mark of the beast, and if you do.

Rv14:9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

There is no pre-trib rapture in the Bible, just your interpretation of scripture. The Bible doesn’t mention anything about before the tribulation and Jesus’s coming, it’s in your mind.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Show me the EVENT where Jesus comes before the tribulation. There is an EVENT for everything else so show me the event.

I already have shown you PeterT. And I gave you the Scriptures to back up what I was saying. Your post trib. rapture argument has already been refuted.

You can’t let the bible speak for itself can you?

Well that is what I have been doing, haven't I? I mean I have simply given you what the Scriptures say on this matter.

Without your interpretation of scripture, you would never see a pre-trib rapture in the Bible.

Well PeterT, I can see the clear teaching of a Pre-Trib. Rapture in the Scriptures. And that is simply by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

You take about faith and works.

Yes I do. Because in the time of Jacob's trouble. A Jew or Gentile will have to endure unto the end to be saved (See Matt. 24:13).

The only extra works you have to do in the tribulation is NOT take the mark of the beast, and if you want to call that works go ahead because you will probably have to work hard not to take it anyway.

That is a work. And no, I will not have to work hard at not taking it. Because I am not going to be here for the time of Jacob's trouble. I will be caught up in the Rapture when the Lord returns for His saints. (1 Thess. 4:16-18)

Salvation is the same for everyone, it’s the same for Christians that didn’t live to see the tribulation and it’s the same for the ones that do see tribulation, the only difference is you will have to work hard not to take the mark of the beast, and if you do.

Wrong PeterT. Salvation is not the same for everyone. In the Chrurch Age which is the dispensation we live in now, we are saved by grace through faith woithout works. (See Eph. 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5). But in the time of Jacob's trouble, there will be an element of works involved if one wants to be saved. You have to endure unto the end without taking the mark of the beast. (See Rev. 14:9-12)

And you also must keep the commandments of God. (Again, see Rev. 14:12)

Rv14:9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Well PeterT, it looks like you just proved my point. And it has been the same point I have been proving all along. And that is that there is an element of works during the time of Jacob's trouble if one is to merit salvation.

Two different Dispensations. Two different methods of salvation.

There is no pre-trib rapture in the Bible, just your interpretation of scripture. The Bible doesn’t mention anything about before the tribulation and Jesus’s coming, it’s in your mind.

The Pre-Trib Rapture is in the Bible. The Scriptures clearly teach it. Now the Post Trib Rapture is DEFINITELY NOT in the Bible. The Bible DOES NOT teach post millennialism or amillennialism. The Bible teaches Pre-Millennialism. The King James Bible teaches a Pre-Millennial Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The reason you still cannot see it Peter, because you are not rightly dividing the word of truth and because you are not comparing Scripture with Scripture.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Therapture or Catching away of the Body of Christ cannot happen afterthe tribulation. It has to be before the tribulation. Whosays and why??? Andit is before the tribulation. Go read my earlier posts. Justbecause YOU post that it is does not make it so and there are NOscriptures supporting that the tribulation will be AFTER the rapture.NONE.Christianswill not go though the time of Jacob's trouble. The time of Jacob'strouble is to bring Israel into correction ( See Jeremiah 30). Thetime of Jacob's trouble is when God will pour out His wrath upon theearth. And the Body of Christ will not be here for that time period.

Hey there Maggie, thank you for responding to my post.

There are Scriptures supporting that the Rapture comes before the time of Jacob's trouble. The King James Bible says so. The King James Bible does indeed teach a pre-tribulation Rapture. You need to study more Maggie, and you too need to compare Scripture with Scripture.

1CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It issown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: [43] It is sown indishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it israised in power:
Nothinghere about PRE-tribulation
1COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep,but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of aneye, at the last trump: for the trumpet (notthe last trumpet) shall sound,and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall bechanged.Nothingabout Pre-Tribhere either
scripturepoints out the time of the first resurrection,when the dead shall beraised. It cannot be denied as it is written in the1Cor.15 scripture.Verse 42. Its right there.WeKNOW that there will be a rapture, it just won't be before thetribulation. Scripture does not support it. That concept did not evenexsist before the 1800's!! DO YOUR RESEARCH!! So were all thebelievers before 1800 Wrong???

Yes, the Rapture WILL INDEED be before the Tribulation. I am sorry that you want to be hear for the time of Jacob's trouble, Maggie. But you will not. If you are saved, then you will be raptured out of here before the time of Jacob's trouble begins. Whether you or Peter like it or not. That's just the way it is.

I have done my research Maggie, and it is clear to me that you haven't done enough research on this issue because you are simply wrong. You are just as wrong as PeterT is on this issue.

And yes the concept of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture did exist before the 1800s. It did indeed. Look up what Clement (150AD - 215AD) wrote in regard to the translation or rapture of the Body of Christ.


Also let's see what Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) a Baptist Pastor, wrote on the Rapture:



"...the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the father's house' (John xiv. 2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for 'now the time is come that judgment must begin,' and that will be 'at the house of God' (I Pet. iv. 17)..."
(Quoted in "Morgan Edwards: Another Pre-Darby Rapturist," by Thomas Ice)

Also let's look at what Ephraim the Syrain (373 A.D.) wrote on the Rapture:


“For all the saints and the elect of God are gathered prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sin.” - Ephraim (373 A.D.)


So Maggie, don't be deceived into beliveing that there was no teaching on the Pre-trib. Rapture before the 1800s, because THERE WAS. And it looks like your false objection about there being no teaching or concept of the Pre-Trib Raputre before the 1800s has been soundly refuted. You can't deny those quotes I just gave you.

TheFirst Resurrection is a cumulative event. Technically the very"first" resurrection was when the Lord Jesus Christ rosefrom the dead on the third day and the Old Testament Saints also rosefrom the dead with Him.Wrongagain!! The VERY first resurrection, was in the OT...Elisha, in 2Kings 8. And then the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP]resurrection was when Jesus brought Lazarus back to life (John 11).The resurrection of Christ was the THIRD, chronologically.

Well Maggie, you are right this time. I should have, perhaps, said the First General Resurrection. So, I thank you for pointing that out to me. Those 2 Scriptures that is.

So you corrected me on that point in regard to the first two resurrections recorded in the Old Testament Scriptures.

Read it for yourself in the BIBLE...and try a little humility. You are only 27 and are debating with people that have been studying God's word for longer than you have been alive. You cannot prove, using Scripture, that the tribulation is after the rapture because it is not IN scripture.
Do you not realize that IF you are part of the Real church of Christ, every believer will be DOING THE WORD OF GOD during the tribulation and souls will be won because of it?? Yes, some will die...but so what? IF they are a part of His Bride, their spiritual destination is a good thing and nothing is lost.
How long have you been a Christian? Born again? Born of God? Being led by the Spirit? Do you know what it means to be led by the Spirit? Just curious. Will you answer??
Maggie

I do read it myself Maggie. I do read the Bible. When you say humility, what do you mean?

I know I am 27 Maggie, I am quite aware of that, thank you Well, here is the thing Maggie, even though a person could have studied the Bible for a lot longer than I have, if that older person does not rightly divide the word of truth, he won't ever get the full meaning and context, and understanding of the Scriptures. There is a reason why God commanded us to study, to work, and to rightly divide in 2 Timothy 2:15.

I am aware that you and PeterT are my elders (age wise) and I am confident that there are things both of you know in the Scriptures better than I do, being that you guys have studied the Scriptures for a lot longer than I have. But the truth of the matter Maggie, is that you and PeterT are wrong on the issue of the Rapture. Again, you guys have to rightly divide the word of truth. You must approach the Scriptures dispensationally. Otherwise you just won't understand the Scriptures very well nor will you be able to understand Bible Prophecy clearly.

God placed the divisions and the dispensations in the Bible for a reason. And we need to recognize the dispensations and acknowledge them. There are different economies in the Scriptures. And you need to acknowledge them Maggie. And thanks again for responding to my post. God bless you.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

The roots of Rapture Theology only go back as far as John Nelson Darby in the mid 19th century. Before that - it was never taught for the first 1800 years of the Church's existence.

By the way - Karl Keating soundly defeated Peter Ruckman in a 1987 debate.

No it is not Church Authority, The root of the Rapture doctrine can cleary be found in the Scriptures. And by the way, John Nelson Darby did not forumlate the Pre-trib. Rapture doctrine. The pre-trib. Rapture Doctrine was already in the Scriptures.

And yes, the Pre-trib. Rapture was taught before the 1800s. Long before the 1800s.



“For all the saints and the elect of God are gathered prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sin.” - Ephraim (373 A.D.)



And here is what Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) a Baptist Pastor, wrote on the Rapture:


"...the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the father's house' (John xiv. 2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for 'now the time is come that judgment must begin,' and that will be 'at the house of God' (I Pet. iv. 17)..."
(Quoted in "Morgan Edwards: Another Pre-Darby Rapturist," by Thomas Ice)


You claim that Peter Ruckman was defeated in a debate with Karl Keating, where is the proof? Do you have a video you could show me?

 

[BeStillMatt]

You can thank John Nelson Darby & and the Scofield "reference bible", for the pre-trib deception.

 

[peterT]

I already have shown you PeterT. And I gave you the Scriptures to back up what I was saying. Your post trib. rapture argument has already been refuted.




Well that is what I have been doing, haven't I? I mean I have simply given you what the Scriptures say on this matter.



Well PeterT, I can see the clear teaching of a Pre-Trib. Rapture in the Scriptures. And that is simply by comparing Scripture with Scripture.




Yes I do. Because in the time of Jacob's trouble. A Jew or Gentile will have to endure unto the end to be saved (See Matt. 24:13).




That is a work. And no, I will not have to work hard at not taking it. Because I am not going to be here for the time of Jacob's trouble. I will be caught up in the Rapture when the Lord returns for His saints. (1 Thess. 4:16-18)




Wrong PeterT. Salvation is not the same for everyone. In the Chrurch Age which is the dispensation we live in now, we are saved by grace through faith woithout works. (See Eph. 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5). But in the time of Jacob's trouble, there will be an element of works involved if one wants to be saved. You have to endure unto the end without taking the mark of the beast. (See Rev. 14:9-12)

And you also must keep the commandments of God. (Again, see Rev. 14:12)



Well PeterT, it looks like you just proved my point. And it has been the same point I have been proving all along. And that is that there is an element of works during the time of Jacob's trouble if one is to merit salvation.

Two different Dispensations. Two different methods of salvation.



The Pre-Trib Rapture is in the Bible. The Scriptures clearly teach it. Now the Post Trib Rapture is DEFINITELY NOT in the Bible. The Bible DOES NOT teach post millennialism or amillennialism. The Bible teaches Pre-Millennialism. The King James Bible teaches a Pre-Millennial Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The reason you still cannot see it Peter, because you are not rightly dividing the word of truth and because you are not comparing Scripture with Scripture.

There is no two different methods of salvation just two different situations you are in

Christians that don’t live to see tribulation won’t be in that situation. Christians that see tribulation will have to avoid taking the mark same salvation different situation if you take the mark but it dosent show a pre-tib rapture

You said you have shown me the scripture of a pre-trib coming

Copy and paste them without your comments and lets have a look to see if it says anything about before the tribulation

That’s what I mean by letting the bible speak for itself

Copy and paste them without your comments

 

[peterT]

No it is not Church Authority, The root of the Rapture doctrine can cleary be found in the Scriptures. And by the way, John Nelson Darby did not forumlate the Pre-trib. Rapture doctrine. The pre-trib. Rapture Doctrine was already in the Scriptures.

And yes, the Pre-trib. Rapture was taught before the 1800s. Long before the 1800s.



“For all the saints and the elect of God are gathered prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sin.” - Ephraim (373 A.D.)



And here is what Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) a Baptist Pastor, wrote on the Rapture:


"...the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the father's house' (John xiv. 2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for 'now the time is come that judgment must begin,' and that will be 'at the house of God' (I Pet. iv. 17)..."
(Quoted in "Morgan Edwards: Another Pre-Darby Rapturist," by Thomas Ice)


You claim that Peter Ruckman was defeated in a debate with Karl Keating, where is the proof? Do you have a video you could show me?

Post the scripture without your comments and let’s see if it talks about before the tribulation

Just copy and paste the bible verses and keep your comments out and lets have a look

 

[ChosenbyHim]

There is no two different methods of salvation just two different situations you are in

Christians that don’t live to see tribulation won’t be in that situation. Christians that see tribulation will have to avoid taking the mark same salvation different situation if you take the mark but it dosent show a pre-tib rapture

You said you have shown me the scripture of a pre-trib coming

Copy and paste them without your comments and lets have a look to see if it says anything about before the tribulation

That’s what I mean by letting the bible speak for itself

Copy and paste them without your comments

Yes there are. The Scriptures clearly teach that PeterT. Salvation by grace through faith only for the Church Age (Eph. 2:8-90

Salvation in the time of Jacob's trouble is by faith AND works ( James 2:17, Matthew 24:13, and Revelation 14:12).

Two different methods of obtaining salvation.

Christians don't have to worry about taking the Mark of the Beast. Because they won't be here for the time of Jacob's trouble.

You have no excuse to be ignorant Peter. None at all. You should be ashamed of yourself for not rightly diving the word of truth.

I already told you PeterT that the Scriptures teach a pre-trib. Rapture. Just because the Bible doesn't say it or teach it how you want it too, doesn't mean that the teaching is not there. Just let the Scriptures interpret themselves.

Leave your private interpretation out of it.

 

[BeStillMatt]

Yes there are. The Scriptures clearly teach that PeterT. Salvation by grace through faith only for the Church Age (Eph. 2:8-90

Salvation in the time of Jacob's trouble is by faith AND works ( James 2:17, Matthew 24:13, and Revelation 14:12).

Two different methods of obtaining salvation.

Christians don't have to worry about taking the Mark of the Beast. Because they won't be here for the time of Jacob's trouble.

You have no excuse to be ignorant Peter. None at all. You should be ashamed of yourself for not rightly diving the word of truth.

I already told you PeterT that the Scriptures teach a pre-trib. Rapture. Just because the Bible doesn't say it or teach it how you want it too, doesn't mean that the teaching is not there. Just let the Scriptures interpret themselves.

Leave your private interpretation out of it.

James 2:14-17
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? [SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? [SUP]17 [/SUP]Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Those two are inseperable. Not two different methods to salvation.