PreTrib Rapture Moment 5: What Does Catholicism Teach? - Teaching by Bryan Denlinger

[peterT]

No PeterT, not trying to deceive anyone. Just attempting to explain what the passage is talking about in the Context in which it is written in. The Day of the Lord is referring to the Second Coming. Now it can also include at times the 1,000 year Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ. After all, a day with the Lord is a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Again, the context of the passage will tell you. Now let us look at a great list Scriptures that refer to the Day Of the Lord. That way we can get a better understanding of the context and meaning of what is being addressed and talked about when Scripture refers to the Day of The Lord:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the day of the Lordof hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: - Isaiah 2:12(KJV)



[SUP]6 [/SUP]Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. - Isaiah 13:6 (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. - Isaiah 13:9 (KJV)


[SUP]8 [/SUP]For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. - Isaiah 34:8 (KJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the Lord's anger none escaped nor remained: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed. - Lamentations 2:22 (KJV)


[SUP]5 [/SUP]Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. - Ezekiel 13:5 (KJV)


[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen. - Ezekiel 30:3 (KJV)


[SUP]15 [/SUP]Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. - Joel 1:15 (KJV)


2 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; - Joel 2:1 (KJV)


[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? - Joel 2:11 (KJV)


[SUP]31 [/SUP]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. - Joel 2:31 (KJV)


[SUP]14 [/SUP]Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. - Joel 3:14 (KJV)


[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. - Joel 3:2 (KJV)



[SUP]12 [/SUP]Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. - Joel 3:12 (KJV)


[SUP]11 [/SUP]In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. - Zechariah 12:11 (KJV)


[SUP]18 [/SUP]Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light. - Amos 5:18 (KJV)


[SUP]20 [/SUP]Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it? - Amos 5:20 (KJV)


[SUP]15 [/SUP]For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. - Obadiah 1:15 (KJV)


[SUP]7 [/SUP]Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God: for the day of the Lordis at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. - Zephaniah 1:7 (KJV)


[SUP]8 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in the day of the Lord's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.- Zephaniah 1:8 (KJV)


[SUP]14 [/SUP]The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. - Zephaniah 1:14 (KJV)


[SUP]18 [/SUP]Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: forhe shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. - Zephaniah 1:18 (KJV)


[SUP]2 [/SUP]Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you. - Zephaniah 2:2 (KJV)


[SUP]3 [/SUP]Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger. - Zephaniah 2:3 (KJV)


14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. - Zechariah 14:1 (KJV)


[SUP]2 [/SUP]But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: - Malachi 3:2 (KJV)


4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: - Malachi 4:1-5 (KJV)


[SUP]20 [/SUP]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: - Acts 2:20 (KJV)


[SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. - 1 Corinthians 5:5 (KJV)


[SUP]14 [/SUP]As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus. - 2 Corinthians 1:14 (KJV)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. - 1 Thessalonians 5:2 (KJV)


[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? - 2 Peter 3:10-12 (KJV)

Now, having showed all those Scriptures referencing the day of the LORD, let us look at the passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:


2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work. - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-17 (KJV)

Now Peter, Do you see how comparing Scripture with Scripture helps? Do you see how when you rightly divide the word of truth and when you compare Scripture with Scripture, that the Scriptures will interpret themselves? That's exactly what happens when you compare Scripture with Scripture. They will interpret themselves.


When I see the Day of the Lord being referenced in the Scriptures. It is almost always referring to the Day of the Lord's Anger, the Day of the Lord's Wrath , and the Day of the Lord's Vengeance. The Context is Judgment, Wrath, Darkness, Gloominess, and Vengeance. So, it is obvious that the Scriptures teach that the Day of The Lord is His Second Coming. It is His Second Advent. I don't see how after reading all these Scriptures, that one can still think that the Day of the Lord is referring to the Rapture.


Paul described the Rapture first as a mystery (1 Corinthians 15:51). Out of all those references of the Day of the Lord, I don't think it resembles a mystery. The signs that precede the coming of the Lord in Joel 2:31 and Acts 2:20: (i.e. Sun turning into darkness & moon turning into blood), that still does not appear to me as a mystery. Those are notable signs. How do you interpret that as being a mystery Peter?


Also, if you read the whole passage in 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul was writing to the saints at Thessalonica to comfort them, because what happened was some of them in the church thought that the Rapture had already taken place. And Paul was simply addressing their concern about the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. After Paul had taught the Saints at Thessalonica about the Rapture and after his departutre, there were some false prophets who wrote letters to them claiming to be Paul, and saying that the Rapture already had taken place. That is why Paul, when he was just beginning to address them, told them not to be soon shaken in mind, or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor BY LETTER AS FROM US, as that The Day of Christ is at Hand. ( 2 Thess. 2:2).

Context always helps. So the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Rapture is also found in that passage, in fact it is right in verse 1. But everything after verse 1, from verse 2 and onward is clearly about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.


The Saints at Thessalonica already thought that they were in the Day of The Lord, since they had been wrongly convinced by someone pretending to be Paul that the Rapture had already taken place. Basically, they thought that they missed the rapture. Again Peter, read the context. Compare the Scriptures. If you want to understand a particular passage in the Bible. Then you must compare Scripture with Scripture.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. - 1 Corinthians 2:13 (KJV)

Nice bunch of scriptures bro.

But nothing about a pre-trib coming.

Try again

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Nice bunch of scriptures bro.

But nothing about a pre-trib coming.

Try again

I already proved what was written in the context Peter. 2 Thessalonians 2 after verse 1 is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Not the rapture. The Rapture is mentioned in verse 1. And that's it.

But the reason you can't discern the difference is because you do not differentiate between the rapture and the Second Advent. You still wrongly mesh the two together. And because of that you wrongly claim that the rapture comes after the tribulation. It does not and it cannot. Not when you do what 1 Corinthians 2:13 and 2 Timothy 2:15 says.

Also, I already refuted your post trib argument long ago. That's why you haven't been able offer anything of substance, with your response. Not trying to be mean. Just saying.

I gave all those Scriptures also for the benefit of the people on this forum who are still uncertain and confused about the timing of the Rapture.

And if the only verse you have to try to prove your theory of a post trib. rapture is a verse out of Matthew 24 that is directed toward the Jews in the time of Jacob's trouble. Well then you don't have much of an argument.

 

[peterT]

I already proved what was written in the context Peter. 2 Thessalonians 2 after verse 1 is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Not the rapture. The Rapture is mentioned in verse 1. And that's it.

But the reason you can't discern the difference is because you do not differentiate between the rapture and the Second Advent. You still wrongly mesh the two together. And because of that you wrongly claim that the rapture comes after the tribulation. It does not and it cannot. Not when you do what 1 Corinthians 2:13 and 2 Timothy 2:15 says.

Also, I already refuted your post trib argument long ago. That's why you haven't been able offer anything of substance, with your response. Not trying to be mean. Just saying.

I gave all those Scriptures also for the benefit of the people on this forum who are still uncertain and confused about the timing of the Rapture.

And if the only verse you have to try to prove your theory of a post trib. rapture is a verse out of Matthew 24 that is directed toward the Jews in the time of Jacob's trouble. Well then you don't have much of an argument.

Yes the rapture is in verse I

But it’s after the man of sim not before

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Try again

And if the only verse you have to try to prove your theory of a post trib. rapture is a verse out of Matthew 24 that is directed toward the Jews in the time of Jacob's trouble. Well then you don't have much of an argument.

That’s not the only verse bro and you know it.
I showed you lots but you don’t remember them

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Yes the rapture is in verse I

But it’s after the man of sim not before

No, the context there is teaching a pre-trib Rapture because the Saints at Thessalonica thought they had already missed the Rapture. So Peter, again, you are clearly wrong. Quote the more of the passage to get the context.


2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4[/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10 (King James Bible)

Everything from verse 2 and onward is referring to the Second Coming, is because in the context the antichirst, the man of sin, son of perdition is being mentioned as sitting in the temple of God. That only happens during the time of Jacob's trouble. That does not take place in the Church Age.


[SUP]13 [/SUP]But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. - Matthew 24:13-22 (King James Bible)

That passage is talking about the time of Jacob's trouble and it seems to correlatre with 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Notice it said in Matthew 24:15, whoso readeth, let him understand. And it is clear and apparent that you do not understand the passage Peter. Nor can you handle because you are not dispensational.

You are not to be sloppy in your approach and study of the Scriptures. You don't take passages that are doctrinally for the Jews in the time of Jacob's trouble and try to apply them to Born Again Christians in the Body of Christ that are living in the Church Age. It doesn't work Peter.

What Christians do you know of today who are living in Judaea?

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Try again

That’s not the only verse bro and you know it.
I showed you lots but you don’t remember them

You did not show me lots. You showed maybe a few verses and that's it. And one of verses you did show me was taken all out of context. When your not dispensational, you have to deny certain doctrines in the Scriptures that don't line up with your ideology. That's why a lot of the times, people who deny the Pre-Trib. Rapture, also deny Eternal Security. Because they know what Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30 teaches. And that is that the Christians are sealed by the Holy Ghost unto the Day of Redemption. But they also know the passage in Revelation 14:9-12 where it says if ANY MAN takes the mark and worships the beast and his image, then the same shall drink of the wine fo the wrath of God and shall be punished with eternal torment in the Lake of Fire.

So and because these people who are not dispensational who the Pre-Trib Rapture, also have to deny Eternal Security because they know that no man can take the mark of the Beast in the time of Jacob's trouble. There Peter, you and other people who do not rightly divide the word of truth, have to misapply the Scriptures to different dispensations, and have to deny any clear doctrinal teaching in the Scriptures that does not line up with your ideology and your theology. Do you know what that is called? It is called wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. - 2 Peter 3:16 (King James Bible)


If you want to really believe the Pre-Trib Rapture, if you really want to find it in the Scriptures, you can Peter. Because the teaching is in the Scriptures. But you have to rightly divide the word of truth. Let the Bible say exactly what it says in the place in which it says it in.

 

[zone]

 

[peterT]

No, the context there is teaching a pre-trib Rapture because the Saints at Thessalonica thought they had already missed the Rapture. So Peter, again, you are clearly wrong. Quote the more of the passage to get the context.


2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4[/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10 (King James Bible)

Everything from verse 2 and onward is referring to the Second Coming, is because in the context the antichirst, the man of sin, son of perdition is being mentioned as sitting in the temple of God. That only happens during the time of Jacob's trouble. That does not take place in the Church Age.


[SUP]13 [/SUP]But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. - Matthew 24:13-22 (King James Bible)

That passage is talking about the time of Jacob's trouble and it seems to correlatre with 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Notice it said in Matthew 24:15, whoso readeth, let him understand. And it is clear and apparent that you do not understand the passage Peter. Nor can you handle because you are not dispensational.

You are not to be sloppy in your approach and study of the Scriptures. You don't take passages that are doctrinally for the Jews in the time of Jacob's trouble and try to apply them to Born Again Christians in the Body of Christ that are living in the Church Age. It doesn't work Peter.

What Christians do you know of today who are living in Judaea?





You did not show me lots. You showed maybe a few verses and that's it. And one of verses you did show me was taken all out of context. When your not dispensational, you have to deny certain doctrines in the Scriptures that don't line up with your ideology. That's why a lot of the times, people who deny the Pre-Trib. Rapture, also deny Eternal Security. Because they know what Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30 teaches. And that is that the Christians are sealed by the Holy Ghost unto the Day of Redemption. But they also know the passage in Revelation 14:9-12 where it says if ANY MAN takes the mark and worships the beast and his image, then the same shall drink of the wine fo the wrath of God and shall be punished with eternal torment in the Lake of Fire.

So and because these people who are not dispensational who the Pre-Trib Rapture, also have to deny Eternal Security because they know that no man can take the mark of the Beast in the time of Jacob's trouble. There Peter, you and other people who do not rightly divide the word of truth, have to misapply the Scriptures to different dispensations, and have to deny any clear doctrinal teaching in the Scriptures that does not line up with your ideology and your theology. Do you know what that is called? It is called wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. - 2 Peter 3:16 (King James Bible)


If you want to really believe the Pre-Trib Rapture, if you really want to find it in the Scriptures, you can Peter. Because the teaching is in the Scriptures. But you have to rightly divide the word of truth. Let the Bible say exactly what it says in the place in which it says it in.

The last trumpet is the LAST trumpet.

And HE who now letteth will let, that IS Not you that lets bro, “HE” is the lord. And it HE that lets and will let, NOT YOU


And there is nothing out of context in these 4 verses .

Its talking about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2T hat ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

It’s you that is taking these verses out of context, so it fits you private interpretation.

It’s you that have it mixt up

HE who now letteth will let, IS NOT YOU bro.

There is no event in the Bible showing Jesus coming before the tribulation, you are just twisting it to sqeeees a pre-trib coming, and you are not even doing a very good job at that

 

[peterT]

job well done

 

[ChosenbyHim]

The last trumpet is the LAST trumpet.

And HE who now letteth will let, that IS Not you that lets bro, “HE” is the lord. And it HE that lets and will let, NOT YOU

Peter, the He who no letteh is the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ right now is on this earth. That is why the Antichrist has not stepped into the lime light. Nor can he until we, (the Body of Christ) be taken out of the way. And we will be taken out of the way Peter, it is called the Rapture. And once the Rapture takes place then the time of Jacob's trouble will begin. That's what it is talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2:7.

And there is nothing out of context in these 4 verses .

Its talking about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2T hat ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 (King James Bible)

What Paul is teaching here is that the Body of Christ must be taken out of the way, before the man of sin is to be revealed. That is what Paul was teaching the Saints at Thessalonica since they thought the Rapture had already happened.

It’s you that is taking these verses out of context, so it fits you private interpretation.

It’s you that have it mixt up .

No, not at all Peter. You see unlike you and other Post tribbers, I don't try to get the Scriptures to line up with my own private interpretation. You guys have to do that to try to save face for your argument about the Post trib rapture theory. Like I mentioned in the last post, that's why a post tribber will most likely deny Eternal Security. Why? Because he knows that there is no eternal security given to the Tribulation Saints. Eternal Security is only given to the 144,000 Jews from the Twelve Tribes of the Children of Israel, in the time of Jacob's trouble (See Revelation 7).

But again, the Tribulation Saints will have to endure unto the end to be saved and they cannot take the mark of the beast, because if they do, it will damn them. (Revelation 14:9-12).

I don't have to try to get the Bible to line up with my own doctrine or idea since I rightly divide the word of truth and compare Scripture with Scripture. I know that in the Dispensation we are living in now, that there is eternal security granted to the born again and regenerated believer. (See Eph. 1:13 & 4:30) and because we are members of the Body of Christ (See 1 Corinthians 12:27).

And I know that from the teaching of Scripture, that the Body of Christ will not have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble. Time of Jacob's trouble is for Jacob, it is for Israel. It is not for the Church.

So get it right.

And you need to be ashamed of yourself Peter. I mean seriously. For not rightly dividing the word of truth. For not following that important command in the Scriptures. You see Peter, 2 Timothy 2:15 is not a suggestion, but it is a command.

HE who now letteth will let, IS NOT YOU bro.

The He who now letteth is the Body of Christ. We have to be taken out of the way first before the Antichrist and his mark of the beast can show up. It is that simple Peter. Stop making it so complicated. Just compare Scripture with Scripture.

There is no event in the Bible showing Jesus coming before the tribulation, you are just twisting it to sqeeees a pre-trib coming, and you are not even doing a very good job at that.

Wrong. There is an event in the Scriptures where Jesus comes back for His church. He comes back for us, and He catches us up in the air to meet with Him in the clouds. At the Rapture or the Translation of the Saints, Jesus does not come back to the Earth physically. He just comes down to the clouds in the air. As 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 clearly states.

Stop trying to mix the rapture and Second Coming together Peter, it does not work. Stop getting the two confused. They are not the same event.

 

[peterT]

Stop trying to mix the rapture and Second Coming together Peter, it does not work. Stop getting the two confused. They are not the same event.

You have been thrashed bro

And you have had two and three witnesses.

You have been chopped to bits with the word.




But you are still in denial you are mixing up the two events

 

[ChosenbyHim]

You have been thrashed bro

And you have had two and three witnesses.

You have been chopped to bits with the word.


View attachment 48302

But you are still in denial you are mixing up the two events

No Peter, I clearly showed you why the Second Coming and Rapture are not the same event. They cannot be. And actually your argument was refuted a long time ago, I am just responding to you up to this point for the sake of the other people on this forum. I realize that the Biblical Doctrine of the Pre-trib Rapture has come under intense scrutiny in these last days. So I am doing what I can to defend it.

Now I am going to say this again Peter, RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH. You are not to go and pull verses out of one dispensation and misapply them over to another. It doesn't work that way. All you do is make a mess of the Bible when you do that. You are 55 years old. You have no excuse to be as sloppy as you are with your approach and handling of the Scriptures.

Let me ask you a question though Peter and let's see if you can answer it. If Christians supposedly have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble like you say they do, then who will be left to enter into the Millennial Kingdom?

Also, who will populate the Millennial Kingdom?

At the Translation or Rapture of the Saints, all born again Believers will be getting their new glorified bodies. And they will not be able to procreate. So again, who will populate the Millennial Kingdom?

Of course I already know that Christians WILL NOT go through the Tribulation period. Because Daniel's 70th week is not for the Gentiles but it is for unbelieving Israel. All true Born again Christians will be caught up to meet the Lord in the Air before the time of Jacob's trouble ever starts.

But again, since you still are persisting in your error Peter, tell me then, who is going to populate the Millennial Kingdom if the Rapture "Supposedly" happens after the time of Jacob's trouble?

 

[peterT]

Peter, you seem to be good at failing to read and look at the whole context of a passage of Scripture. The "That day shall not come" is not referring to the Rapture. It is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Which is a different event altogether from the Rapture. When you quote Scripture, please quote the whole passage or at least more than 1 or 2 verses.



2 Thessalonians 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-13 (King James Bible)

The context is referring to the Second Coming. The Day of the Lord refers to the Second Coming.

The Rapture is where the Lord Jesus Christ comes in the clouds and catches away His bride.

Then 7 years later, the Lord Jesus Christ comes down to the Earth and His feet lands on the Mount of Olives.

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Again Peter, compare Scripture with Scripture. Context will help you get the meaning.

Well you have stated your case

“he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way”. So that’s your pre-trib rapture.

not much to go on

No Jesus coming in the clouds

No angels gathering the elect

No trumpets sounding.

Not much to go on

A pittance really, les that a farthing

No wonder the pre-trib is called into question these days

 

[starfield]

Let me ask you a question though Peter and let's see if you can answer it. If Christians supposedly have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble like you say they do, then who will be left to enter into the Millennial Kingdom?

Also, who will populate the Millennial Kingdom?

At the Translation or Rapture of the Saints, all born again Believers will be getting their new glorified bodies. And they will not be able to procreate. So again, who will populate the Millennial Kingdom?

You have asked a good question.
It poses a significant problem to the post-tribulation rapture theory.

 

[Bistabuster]

No Peter, I clearly showed you why the Second Coming and Rapture are not the same event. They cannot be. And actually your argument was refuted a long time ago, I am just responding to you up to this point for the sake of the other people on this forum. I realize that the Biblical Doctrine of the Pre-trib Rapture has come under intense scrutiny in these last days. So I am doing what I can to defend it.

Now I am going to say this again Peter, RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH. You are not to go and pull verses out of one dispensation and misapply them over to another. It doesn't work that way. All you do is make a mess of the Bible when you do that. You are 55 years old. You have no excuse to be as sloppy as you are with your approach and handling of the Scriptures.

Let me ask you a question though Peter and let's see if you can answer it. If Christians supposedly have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble like you say they do, then who will be left to enter into the Millennial Kingdom?

Also, who will populate the Millennial Kingdom?

At the Translation or Rapture of the Saints, all born again Believers will be getting their new glorified bodies. And they will not be able to procreate. So again, who will populate the Millennial Kingdom?

Of course I already know that Christians WILL NOT go through the Tribulation period. Because Daniel's 70th week is not for the Gentiles but it is for unbelieving Israel. All true Born again Christians will be caught up to meet the Lord in the Air before the time of Jacob's trouble ever starts.

But again, since you still are persisting in your error Peter, tell me then, who is going to populate the Millennial Kingdom if the Rapture "Supposedly" happens after the time of Jacob's trouble?

Post trib is not a theory. Pre trib is a theory because there is no direct, positive, no holds barred verse that absolutely says that Jesus is returning before the trib. Only conjecture. I specifically asked that question and it gets ignored because they know that they can't show me what I ask.

Post trib is definitely written in the Bible. Matt 24:29-31, Mark:13:24-27 and Luke:21-25-27.

If you say this isn't so, then you just called Jesus a liar. These passages are as plain as day. Post trib all the way. Why? Because Jesus said so. That's why!

Now, show me the exact verse that says pre trib. Take Matt 24:29-31 for starters. Use that verse as an example. If you could find a verse just like that one but instead of after the tribulation it says before, I'll shut up and hear you out completely!

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Post trib is not a theory. Pre trib is a theory because there is no direct, positive, no holds barred verse that absolutely says that Jesus is returning before the trib. Only conjecture. I specifically asked that question and it gets ignored because they know that they can't show me what I ask.

I thought I did answer your question Bistabuster. If not, I possibly might had accidentally missed it. Well, by your logic, you assume that there is no event taught in the Bible such as the Pre-trib Rapture.

Now let me explain something. I am aware that the words "Rapture" "Pre-trib. Rapture" "Post-Trib Rapture" "Mid-trib Rapture" are not in the Holy Scriptures. Just like the term "Trinity" is not. HOWEVER, while the word "Trinity" may not be in the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is. And again, while the term "Trinity" is not in the Scriptures. The Teaching of the Trinity cleary is.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. - 1 John 5:7 (King James Bible)

Just an excellent Bible verse on the Trinity and Godhead. So we can see from 1 John 5:7, that while the word "TRINITY" may not be in the Scriptures. The meaning of that word is. And the teaching of the Trinity is. And by the way, the word "Godhead" is a Bible word and represents what the Trinity is.



And while the word "RAPTURE" is not a term found in the Scriptures. The TEACHING of the Rapture is. And there is a word that teaches the Rapture, and the word is "TRANSLATION" and "TRANSLATED."


[SUP]5 [/SUP]By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. - Hebrews 11:5 (King James Bible)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. - Genesis 5:24 (King James Bible)


[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: - Colossians 1:13 (King James Bible)

So, we see that while the term "Rapture" cannot be found in the Scriptures. The "Teaching of the "Rapture" is.
So again, to recap: while "Trinity" is not the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is. While the word "Rapture" is not in the Scriptures, the word "Translated" and "Translation" is.
Therefore, the teaching of the Trinity is indeed in the Scriptures. Because "Trinity" has the same meaning as the "Godhead" does.

The teaching of the Rapture also is in the Scriptures. Because "Rapture" means: The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to Heaven. And Rapture is also a term that refers to "being caught up" as taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

So just because the phrases and terms: "Pre-Trib. Rapture" or "before the tribulation" do not show up in the Scriptures, does not mean that the teaching is not there.

Because the teaching of the Pre-Trib. Rapture is in the Scriptures. The King James Bible teaches a Pre-trib. Rapture.

Post trib is definitely written in the Bible. Matt 24:29-31, Mark:13:24-27 and Luke:21-25-27.

If you say this isn't so, then you just called Jesus a liar. These passages are as plain as day. Post trib all the way. Why? Because Jesus said so. That's why!

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -Matthew 24:29-31 (King James Bible)


Now, let me ask you a question Bistabuster, which one of those signs which I highlighted does the Apostle Paul reference in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55?


Does he even reference one of those signs?

From what I can see by looking at 1 Cor. 15:51-55, he does not reference any of those signs. And 1 Corinthians 15:51 is where Paul first mentions the Translation or the Rapture. And the very first way he describes it, is he describes it as a mystery. And he says it happens in a MOMENT, in the TWINKLING OF AN EYE. Do you know or are you able to comprehend how fast that is Bistabuster?


Let me share a finding that a researcher had found in his research in regard to the speed of a twink (as in the twinkling of an eye).

"A twink is a reflected particle of light seen in the eye and thusly travels at the speed of light (983,571,056 feet per second) This equates to an infinitesimally small fraction of a second, so it would be fair to say it occurs in about a billionth of a second (which in itself is such a small period of time as to be nearly inconceiveable, but is gigantic compared to the actual time in which a twinkle occurs)."


Well I would say that's really, really FAST. No wonder Paul first described it as a Mystery. Now Bistabuster, do you suppose that all those signs mentioned in Matthew 24:29 could happen in the twinkling of an eye?

I would be interested in seeing what your answer is on this.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. - Mark 13:24-27 (King James Bible)

Again though, which one of those Signs does Paul list or mention in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 when he is first mentioning about the Rapture?


[SUP]25 [/SUP]And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. - Luke 21:25-27 (King James Bible)


Once more, can you show me where the Apostle Paul lists those signs in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55?



Now Bistabuster, I did not claim that those passages weren't so. I am simply telling you that those three passages are not talking about the Rapture, they are talking about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. And no, the Lord Jesus Christ was not talking about the Rapture in those three passages, He was talking about His Second Coming or Second Advent.

The Translation of the Church Age Saints is a different event from the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And you are making the same mistake that Peter has been making all along. And that is your trying to claim that the Rapture and Second Coming are the same event. When THEY ARE NOT the same event. They are two different events that occur at two DIFFERENT time periods.

And no, the Post trib is NOT WRITTEN in the Bible. Not at all. And no, we Pre-trib Rapture believers do not call our Beloved Lord Jesus a liar.

We do not do such a thing as you wrongly accuse. We believe the words of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ cannot lie, for He is God. He is God manifest in the flesh. But did you know that the wicked and satanic new age bible versions such as the NIV, NLT, ESV, NASB, and the NET Bible all claim that Jesus lied in John 7:8?

Go look it up. See for yourself.

That is another reason why I stick with the God-Honoured, time tested, precious, and Beloved King James Authorized Version. The King James Bible Honours Jesus Christ and exalts Him. Jesus Christ Never Lied. He cannot lie. He is God Almighty. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Now, show me the exact verse that says pre trib. Take Matt 24:29-31 for starters. Use that verse as an example. If you could find a verse just like that one but instead of after the tribulation it says before, I'll shut up and hear you out completely!

Bistabuster, I will when you show me the exact verse that says post trib.

Matthew 24:29-31 is talking about the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is not referring to the Translation of the Church Age Saints. It is referring to the Second Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ. We will be coming back with Him riding on white horses.

So both you and Peter have failed to prove a post trib rapture. The Scriptures do not teach a post trib rapture.

The Holy Scriptures teach a Pre-trib Rapture. The Holy Scriptures teach a Pre-Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ.

So Bistabuster, I suggest you do more studying on this issue. Study and rightly divide the word of truth.

Forsake the false teaching of the Post Trib Rapture theory, and convert to the true and Biblical teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Body of Christ.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

You have asked a good question.
It poses a significant problem to the post-tribulation rapture theory.

Thanks Starfield.

And yeah, I am just waiting to see how Peter is going to answer this question.

After all, at the Glorious Second Coming of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, there must be men and women with reproductive organs left on the Earth who will be allowed entrance into the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ. It is a prerequisite indeed if the Millennial Kingdom is to be populated.

 

[starfield]

Post trib is not a theory. Pre trib is a theory because there is no direct, positive, no holds barred verse that absolutely says that Jesus is returning before the trib. Only conjecture. I specifically asked that question and it gets ignored because they know that they can't show me what I ask.

Post trib is definitely written in the Bible. Matt 24:29-31, Mark:13:24-27 and Luke:21-25-27.

If you say this isn't so, then you just called Jesus a liar. These passages are as plain as day. Post trib all the way. Why? Because Jesus said so. That's why!

Now, show me the exact verse that says pre trib. Take Matt 24:29-31 for starters. Use that verse as an example. If you could find a verse just like that one but instead of after the tribulation it says before, I'll shut up and hear you out completely!

Those passages do not allude to the rapture, but the Second Coming of Christ; they are two different events. There is no angelic gathering of the remnant of Israel in this rapture passage rather the saints (church-age saints) are translated into the clouds: 1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Now who will procreate to populate the millennium if we'll have a post-tribulation rapture to have glorified bodies?

 

[Bistabuster]

I thought I did answer your question Bistabuster. If not, I possibly might had accidentally missed it. Well, by your logic, you assume that there is no event taught in the Bible such as the Pre-trib Rapture.

Now let me explain something. I am aware that the words "Rapture" "Pre-trib. Rapture" "Post-Trib Rapture" "Mid-trib Rapture" are not in the Holy Scriptures. Just like the term "Trinity" is not. HOWEVER, while the word "Trinity" may not be in the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is. And again, while the term "Trinity" is not in the Scriptures. The Teaching of the Trinity cleary is.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. - 1 John 5:7 (King James Bible)

Just an excellent Bible verse on the Trinity and Godhead. So we can see from 1 John 5:7, that while the word "TRINITY" may not be in the Scriptures. The meaning of that word is. And the teaching of the Trinity is. And by the way, the word "Godhead" is a Bible word and represents what the Trinity is.



And while the word "RAPTURE" is not a term found in the Scriptures. The TEACHING of the Rapture is. And there is a word that teaches the Rapture, and the word is "TRANSLATION" and "TRANSLATED."


[SUP]5 [/SUP]By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. - Hebrews 11:5 (King James Bible)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. - Genesis 5:24 (King James Bible)


[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: - Colossians 1:13 (King James Bible)

So, we see that while the term "Rapture" cannot be found in the Scriptures. The "Teaching of the "Rapture" is.
So again, to recap: while "Trinity" is not the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is. While the word "Rapture" is not in the Scriptures, the word "Translated" and "Translation" is.
Therefore, the teaching of the Trinity is indeed in the Scriptures. Because "Trinity" has the same meaning as the "Godhead" does.

The teaching of the Rapture also is in the Scriptures. Because "Rapture" means: The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to Heaven. And Rapture is also a term that refers to "being caught up" as taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

So just because the phrases and terms: "Pre-Trib. Rapture" or "before the tribulation" do not show up in the Scriptures, does not mean that the teaching is not there.

Because the teaching of the Pre-Trib. Rapture is in the Scriptures. The King James Bible teaches a Pre-trib. Rapture.




29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -Matthew 24:29-31 (King James Bible)


Now, let me ask you a question Bistabuster, which one of those signs which I highlighted does the Apostle Paul reference in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55?


Does he even reference one of those signs?

From what I can see by looking at 1 Cor. 15:51-55, he does not reference any of those signs. And 1 Corinthians 15:51 is where Paul first mentions the Translation or the Rapture. And the very first way he describes it, is he describes it as a mystery. And he says it happens in a MOMENT, in the TWINKLING OF AN EYE. Do you know or are you able to comprehend how fast that is Bistabuster?


Let me share a finding that a researcher had found in his research in regard to the speed of a twink (as in the twinkling of an eye).

"A twink is a reflected particle of light seen in the eye and thusly travels at the speed of light (983,571,056 feet per second) This equates to an infinitesimally small fraction of a second, so it would be fair to say it occurs in about a billionth of a second (which in itself is such a small period of time as to be nearly inconceiveable, but is gigantic compared to the actual time in which a twinkle occurs)."


Well I would say that's really, really FAST. No wonder Paul first described it as a Mystery. Now Bistabuster, do you suppose that all those signs mentioned in Matthew 24:29 could happen in the twinkling of an eye?

I would be interested in seeing what your answer is on this.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. - Mark 13:24-27 (King James Bible)

Again though, which one of those Signs does Paul list or mention in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 when he is first mentioning about the Rapture?


[SUP]25 [/SUP]And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. - Luke 21:25-27 (King James Bible)


Once more, can you show me where the Apostle Paul lists those signs in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55?



Now Bistabuster, I did not claim that those passages weren't so. I am simply telling you that those three passages are not talking about the Rapture, they are talking about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. And no, the Lord Jesus Christ was not talking about the Rapture in those three passages, He was talking about His Second Coming or Second Advent.

The Translation of the Church Age Saints is a different event from the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And you are making the same mistake that Peter has been making all along. And that is your trying to claim that the Rapture and Second Coming are the same event. When THEY ARE NOT the same event. They are two different events that occur at two DIFFERENT time periods.

And no, the Post trib is NOT WRITTEN in the Bible. Not at all. And no, we Pre-trib Rapture believers do not call our Beloved Lord Jesus a liar.

We do not do such a thing as you wrongly accuse. We believe the words of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ cannot lie, for He is God. He is God manifest in the flesh. But did you know that the wicked and satanic new age bible versions such as the NIV, NLT, ESV, NASB, and the NET Bible all claim that Jesus lied in John 7:8?

Go look it up. See for yourself.

That is another reason why I stick with the God-Honoured, time tested, precious, and Beloved King James Authorized Version. The King James Bible Honours Jesus Christ and exalts Him. Jesus Christ Never Lied. He cannot lie. He is God Almighty. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.





Bistabuster, I will when you show me the exact verse that says post trib.

Matthew 24:29-31 is talking about the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is not referring to the Translation of the Church Age Saints. It is referring to the Second Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ. We will be coming back with Him riding on white horses.

So both you and Peter have failed to prove a post trib rapture. The Scriptures do not teach a post trib rapture.

The Holy Scriptures teach a Pre-trib Rapture. The Holy Scriptures teach a Pre-Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ.

So Bistabuster, I suggest you do more studying on this issue. Study and rightly divide the word of truth.

Forsake the false teaching of the Post Trib Rapture theory, and convert to the true and Biblical teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Body of Christ.

I think it's finally answered. You finally said that before the tribulation verse doesn't exist. And furthermore, 1 Cor 15:51-52 neither says before or after so you can't tell me this is before anything. Conjecture. Everything you give me is conjecture. At least I found multiple verses that said "After the tribulation". You found none that said "Before the Tribulation", rapture or otherwise. Pre tribulation does not exist. If I were new to this, I would lean towards post. Why? There I have some evidence in Scripture that confirms that there is some kind of return that happens at that time. That is after.

Thanks.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

I think it's finally answered. You finally said that before the tribulation verse doesn't exist. And furthermore, 1 Cor 15:51-52 neither says before or after so you can't tell me this is before anything. Conjecture. Everything you give me is conjecture. At least I found multiple verses that said "After the tribulation". You found none that said "Before the Tribulation", rapture or otherwise. Pre tribulation does not exist. If I were new to this, I would lean towards post. Why? There I have some evidence in Scripture that confirms that there is some kind of return that happens at that time. That is after.

Thanks.

Yes I said that the phrase "before the Tribulation" does not show up in the Scriptures just like "Trinity"
and "Rapture" do not. Because those specific terms don't. Yet we still use them, don't we

And we use them because the meaning of them is indeed found in the Scriptures. See Bistabuster, I can be honest about the issue because I am Dispensational. That is one thing you and Peter are not. You guys do not rightly divide the word of truth. And you both need to be ashamed.

You have to be Dispensational if you are going to understand the Bible. It is that simple.

And while the terms "Rapture" and "Trinity" are not exactly in the Scriptures. The teaching of the "Rapture" and "Trinity" are found in the Scriptures. And the terms: "Translation," "Translated," and "Godhead" are in the Scriptures.

And also Bistabuster, did you know that the very word: "Bible" is not found in the Bible?
See what I mean? Be very careful about playing these word games like you and Peter like to do.

Both you and peter have failed to live up to your own standard for judging whether or not the Pre-Trib Rapture is taught in the Bible.

So again, you have not proven the post trib rapture thoery. Both you and Peter need to study this issue further. And you need to rightly divide the word of truth.

Well yes Bistabuster, you did find multiple verses that said "After the Tribulation." The only issue there is, THOSE VERSES ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE RAPTURE!

They are referring to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Well Bistabuster, if you choose to continue in your error of believing the false teaching of a post trib rapture. Then be prepared to lose your Crow of Righteousness. Because you are not looking for the Lord Jesus Christ.

You are looking for the Antichrist. Do not let some false prophet who teachings the false Post trib Rapture theory still your crown and rewards.

I am not looking for the antichrist.

I am looking for my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


[SUP]8 [/SUP]Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:8 (King James Bible)

We Christians that truly are for the Pre-Trib Rapture, love the Lord's appearing because we are expecting and looking for His coming in the air to catch us away into the clouds to meet Him (1 Thess. 4:16-18).

You post tribbers on the other hand are not looking for the Lord, but instead you are looking for the antichrist. My advice to you Bistabuster, you better start preparing. And you better prepare yourself to be ready to flee into the mountains because that is what your going to have to do, if you want to stick around for the time of Jacob's trouble.

Of course, if you are truly saved, then whether you like it or not, your going to be attending the Calling up and Rapture of the Church Age Saints, which will take place before the the time of Jacob's trouble starts.

Let me show you one more problem though Bistabuster with you people who are not dispensational.

In the Church Age, the Christian's body is the temple of God.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. - 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 (King James Bible)

Now let's take a look at another portion of the Scriptures which apply to another dispensation:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. - 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (King James Bible)

So let me ask you a question Bistabuster, how do you reconcile 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 with 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4?

I mean is the antichrist going to be sitting inside our bodies? Do you see the mess you can cause if you are not dispensational and when you do not rightly divide the word of truth?

Now if you are honest with yourself, then you will know that you cannot reconcile them.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 is referring to the Church Age.

While 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 is referring to the time of Jacob's trouble. The period of time that takes place before the Second Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In the Church Age, the temple of God is inside physical body of the Born Again believer.

But in the time of Jacob's trouble, that will not be so.

And that is another reason that the Bible teaches a Pre-tribulation Rapture of the Body of Christ.

And you will not be able to discern that Bistabuster until you are dispensational.

Bistabuster, you have to rightly divide the word of truth.

You can't take 3 passages of Scripture in the Gospels out of context and misapply them to the Church Age. It does not work. You have to rightly divide the Scriptures.

Hence, you still have not proven the Post trib Rapture theory. And that's all it is by the way, the Post trib is nothing more than a theory.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Body of Christ is Biblical and it is clearly taught in the King James Holy Bible.

To further help you in this area though Bistabuster, check out this good video by Brother Bryan Denlinger:

12 Reasons for the Pre-Trib Rapture:


[video=youtube;t6ChGAjzfQI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6ChGAjzfQI[/video]

 

[zone]

Those passages do not allude to the rapture, but the Second Coming of Christ; they are two different events. There is no angelic gathering of the remnant of Israel in this rapture passage rather the saints (church-age saints) are translated into the clouds: 1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Now who will procreate to populate the millennium if we'll have a post-tribulation rapture to have glorified bodies?

there's no future millennium.
why not spend your time on things that actually exist in scripture?

 

[zone]

Yes I said that the phrase "before the Tribulation" does not show up in the Scriptures just like "Trinity"
and "Rapture" do not. Because those specific terms don't. Yet we still use them, don't we

And we use them because the meaning of them is indeed found in the Scriptures. See Bistabuster, I can be honest about the issue because I am Dispensational. That is one thing you and Peter are not. You guys do not rightly divide the word of truth. And you both need to be ashamed.

You have to be Dispensational if you are going to understand the Bible. It is that simple.

And while the terms "Rapture" and "Trinity" are not exactly in the Scriptures. The teaching of the "Rapture" and "Trinity" are found in the Scriptures. And the terms: "Translation," "Translated," and "Godhead" are in the Scriptures.

And also Bistabuster, did you know that the very word: "Bible" is not found in the Bible?
See what I mean? Be very careful about playing these word games like you and Peter like to do.

Both you and peter have failed to live up to your own standard for judging whether or not the Pre-Trib Rapture is taught in the Bible.

So again, you have not proven the post trib rapture thoery. Both you and Peter need to study this issue further. And you need to rightly divide the word of truth.

Well yes Bistabuster, you did find multiple verses that said "After the Tribulation." The only issue there is, THOSE VERSES ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE RAPTURE!

They are referring to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Well Bistabuster, if you choose to continue in your error of believing the false teaching of a post trib rapture. Then be prepared to lose your Crow of Righteousness. Because you are not looking for the Lord Jesus Christ.

You are looking for the Antichrist. Do not let some false prophet who teachings the false Post trib Rapture theory still your crown and rewards.

I am not looking for the antichrist.

I am looking for my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


[SUP]8 [/SUP]Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:8 (King James Bible)

We Christians that truly are for the Pre-Trib Rapture, love the Lord's appearing because we are expecting and looking for His coming in the air to catch us away into the clouds to meet Him (1 Thess. 4:16-18).

You post tribbers on the other hand are not looking for the Lord, but instead you are looking for the antichrist. My advice to you Bistabuster, you better start preparing. And you better prepare yourself to be ready to flee into the mountains because that is what your going to have to do, if you want to stick around for the time of Jacob's trouble.

Of course, if you are truly saved, then whether you like it or not, your going to be attending the Calling up and Rapture of the Church Age Saints, which will take place before the the time of Jacob's trouble starts.

Let me show you one more problem though Bistabuster with you people who are not dispensational.

In the Church Age, the Christian's body is the temple of God.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. - 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 (King James Bible)

Now let's take a look at another portion of the Scriptures which apply to another dispensation:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. - 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (King James Bible)

So let me ask you a question Bistabuster, how do you reconcile 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 with 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4?

I mean is the antichrist going to be sitting inside our bodies? Do you see the mess you can cause if you are not dispensational and when you do not rightly divide the word of truth?

Now if you are honest with yourself, then you will know that you cannot reconcile them.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 is referring to the Church Age.

While 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 is referring to the time of Jacob's trouble. The period of time that takes place before the Second Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In the Church Age, the temple of God is inside physical body of the Born Again believer.

But in the time of Jacob's trouble, that will not be so.

And that is another reason that the Bible teaches a Pre-tribulation Rapture of the Body of Christ.

And you will not be able to discern that Bistabuster until you are dispensational.

Bistabuster, you have to rightly divide the word of truth.

You can't take 3 passages of Scripture in the Gospels out of context and misapply them to the Church Age. It does not work. You have to rightly divide the Scriptures.

Hence, you still have not proven the Post trib Rapture theory. And that's all it is by the way, the Post trib is nothing more than a theory.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Body of Christ is Biblical and it is clearly taught in the King James Holy Bible.

To further help you in this area though Bistabuster, check out this good video by Brother Bryan Denlinger:

12 Reasons for the Pre-Trib Rapture:

give it up Chosen.
pretrib just is.....not....in....scripture.
you're reading extra junk to proof it.

it's ERROR.

ditch it.