PreTrib Rapture Moment 5: What Does Catholicism Teach? - Teaching by Bryan Denlinger

[Bistabuster]

You can thank John Nelson Darby & and the Scofield "reference bible", for the pre-trib deception.

Yup! That's not exactly where it started but Darby gave this idea to Scolfield in the late 1800's or very early 1900's. The church took hold on this, loved it and taught it ever since.

One more point. I'd have to look up the history on this again but in the 1600's they understood the Bible better than we do today and those people never believed in a pre trib stuff.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Have you tried the NIV Bible? 1 Cor 15:51-52 = "Last Trumpet!"

The NIV bible is a satanic bible.

I read and study the King James Bible.

 

[peterT]

Well there is a contrast though between Ephesians 2:8-9 and James 2:17. And there is a contrast between the Church Age (God's dealings with the Gentiles) and the Time of Jacob's trouble (God's dealings with the Jews, Nation of Israel).

But we are Israel

12 Jewish tribes?
But there is nether Jew or Greek in Christ Jesus.

12 blood lines ?
when jesus made one blood all nations of men

12 tribes of the flesh?
When flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

These are 12 spiritual tribes as James says when greeting the church.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.


Governor that shall rule my people Israel

Matthew 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

2000 years have passed since the Governor came, and who is the Governor ruling over? Us Christians His people Israel, Spiritual Israel, thus the 12 tribes are spiritual Israel.

The true Israel of God the church.


Jesus is the vine and we are grafted in to him. One blood of ALL nations of men, one church, one body one spiritual drink, And he is not a Jew which is one outwardly be he is a Jew which is one inwardly.

And I ant a Gentiles anymore

I am a new creature in Christ Jesus

Old things are passed away

Born again

Washes whiter than snow

Presented as a chaste virgin to Christ.

And I put of the old man, and put on the new man, and I am a Gentile no more.

Just because you haven’t got the faith to be called one of Gods elect and to be called the true Israel of God it's not my fault.

Will he find faith on the earth when he comes? luke 18;8

 

[Earlmayknowornot]

PeterT there are thirteen tribes. Joseph was split into Ephraim and Manasseh. Just like there were 13 apostles. Judas killed himself and was replaced. Then came Paul.

 

[peterT]

PeterT there are thirteen tribes. .

Like to see you show that from scripture lol

 

[Angela53510]

Are you sure about all that?

Actually, that is not how the passage reads in the Greek.

The word translated "world" by the KJV is aionon, and in Greek it means "ages, dispensations."

So the passage really reads:

"warnings for us on whom the fulfillment of the dispensations/ages has come."(1Co 10:11)

First the lexical form of the word in Greek is actually αίών or aion to those who do not read Greek, that is mistake #1. That is the nominative case, and the only way you will ever find it in a lexicon. This form is what we commonly use, unless we are talking in terms of what the noun case/gender/number is, in which case we use the Biblical form. Aionon is the genitive plural, which means it is a plural noun of possession. (ie uses OF)

I was taught that word means "age, eternity". Strong's has a pretty accurate definition:

165. aion ahee-ohn' from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.

So, not finding the word "dispensation" anywhere in this!!

I hate to give any links to Scofield, but since his Bible popularized this, people might want to read a bit more. I tried to find a neutral or scholarly link, but either Scofield is the second coming of Christ, or he is part of a vast international conspiracy, neither of which I believe is true. So I am putting up this link which has some references and even more important a lot of scriptures. Please note!! This Bible scholar says that Scofield and dispensationalism are DANGEROUS!! Amen to that!

ANALYZING Cyrus I. Scofield and His Teaching

That is pretty much what I have studied. Sadly, Scofield was not a scholar, nor even inspired.

When you substitute dispensationalism into that passage you are really creating a totally exegetical fallacy.

The passage should read, according to Mounce's Reverse- Interlinear:

"Now these events happened to them as examples, but were written down as warnings for us, on whom the end of the ages has come." 1 Cor. 10:11

So what is Paul talking about? Dispensations? No, just about the events which had happened in the past so we should be wary of what happened. And the end of the age? Well, I guess that would be the age of waiting for Jesus to be born. That the only time that really counts - before and after Jesus. Paul was NEVER writing to people in an unknown continent, 2000 years in the future. He was writing to a congregation he founded, about things that really were relevant to them. Be on guard not to make the same mistakes as were made in the past!

So please, I would kindly ask you, do not tackle the Greek anymore. You are not a student of the language, and it really shows how wrongly dispensationalists divide the word, when you come up with ridiculous statements like this.

 

[Bistabuster]

The NIV bible is a satanic bible.

I read and study the King James Bible.

So I have listened to every word you said and you have still failed to show EVIDENCE of a pre trib rapture. Sure, I can make ANYTHING read the way I want it too but it doesn't make it right. The only right it will be is to me alone.

Now, I will be blunt on this one. I want to see a passage from you that CLEARLY states that there will be a pre trib rapture. I want it to refer to the one just like Matt 24:29-31. How clear is that. That passage plainly states that that the tribes of the earth will mourn as they see the Son of man coming in the clouds to gather His elect. Also, if you read Acts 1:9-11 and 1 Thes 4:16-17 you will see that when Jesus does return, it will be in a cloud. Matt, Acts and 1 Thes state that fact. 1 Thes only states that a trumpet has sounded, but which one? It didn't say. Acts never specified a trumpet. Just a cloud. Only 1 Cor states which trumpet which is the last one. Rev 10:7 doesn't say trumpet but does say when the seventh angel begins to sound, that's the end. Rev 11:15. Same thing. Christ will reign. There will be time no longer! Rev 10:6-7

There is more evidence of a post than a pre and so far you have avoided the main question that I have asked and PeterT has asked. We want to see a pre trib verse (one will do) that is clear as a bell. You can't show one because there isn't one to show. Peter didn't miss the point. You did. The reason you can't answer that one question is because that Bible passage doesn't exist!

 

[Earlmayknowornot]

1. Reuben
2. Simeon
3. Levi
4. Judah
5. Issachar
6. Zebulun
7. Gad
8. Asher
9. Dan
10. Ephraim
11. Manasseh
12. Naphtali
13. Benjamin.

 

[Bistabuster]

First the lexical form of the word in Greek is actually αίών or aion to those who do not read Greek, that is mistake #1. That is the nominative case, and the only way you will ever find it in a lexicon. This form is what we commonly use, unless we are talking in terms of what the noun case/gender/number is, in which case we use the Biblical form. Aionon is the genitive plural, which means it is a plural noun of possession. (ie uses OF)

I was taught that word means "age, eternity". Strong's has a pretty accurate definition:

165. aion ahee-ohn' from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.

So, not finding the word "dispensation" anywhere in this!!

I hate to give any links to Scofield, but since his Bible popularized this, people might want to read a bit more. I tried to find a neutral or scholarly link, but either Scofield is the second coming of Christ, or he is part of a vast international conspiracy, neither of which I believe is true. So I am putting up this link which has some references and even more important a lot of scriptures. Please note!! This Bible scholar says that Scofield and dispensationalism are DANGEROUS!! Amen to that!

ANALYZING Cyrus I. Scofield and His Teaching

That is pretty much what I have studied. Sadly, Scofield was not a scholar, nor even inspired.

When you substitute dispensationalism into that passage you are really creating a totally exegetical fallacy.

The passage should read, according to Mounce's Reverse- Interlinear:

"Now these events happened to them as examples, but were written down as warnings for us, on whom the end of the ages has come." 1 Cor. 10:11

So what is Paul talking about? Dispensations? No, just about the events which had happened in the past so we should be wary of what happened. And the end of the age? Well, I guess that would be the age of waiting for Jesus to be born. That the only time that really counts - before and after Jesus. Paul was NEVER writing to people in an unknown continent, 2000 years in the future. He was writing to a congregation he founded, about things that really were relevant to them. Be on guard not to make the same mistakes as were made in the past!

So please, I would kindly ask you, do not tackle the Greek anymore. You are not a student of the language, and it really shows how wrongly dispensationalists divide the word, when you come up with ridiculous statements like this.

That helps a lot doing a study on God's Word.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

So I have listened to every word you said and you have still failed to show EVIDENCE of a pre trib rapture. Sure, I can make ANYTHING read the way I want it too but it doesn't make it right. The only right it will be is to me alone.

Now, I will be blunt on this one. I want to see a passage from you that CLEARLY states that there will be a pre trib rapture. I want it to refer to the one just like Matt 24:29-31. How clear is that. That passage plainly states that that the tribes of the earth will mourn as they see the Son of man coming in the clouds to gather His elect. Also, if you read Acts 1:9-11 and 1 Thes 4:16-17 you will see that when Jesus does return, it will be in a cloud. Matt, Acts and 1 Thes state that fact. 1 Thes only states that a trumpet has sounded, but which one? It didn't say. Acts never specified a trumpet. Just a cloud. Only 1 Cor states which trumpet which is the last one. Rev 10:7 doesn't say trumpet but does say when the seventh angel begins to sound, that's the end. Rev 11:15. Same thing. Christ will reign. There will be time no longer! Rev 10:6-7

There is more evidence of a post than a pre and so far you have avoided the main question that I have asked and PeterT has asked. We want to see a pre trib verse (one will do) that is clear as a bell. You can't show one because there isn't one to show. Peter didn't miss the point. You did. The reason you can't answer that one question is because that Bible passage doesn't exist!

I did not avoid Peter's question. I answered it. He just refused to accept and take the answer which I gave him. I gave him Scriputre copared with other Scriputres that teach a Pre-trib Rapture, masinly that the Body of Christ will taken off the earth before the time of Jacob's trouble starts.

And yes, in Matthew 24 is says the tribes of the earth mourn, well who are the tribes? Who is that passage talking about?

Read the context Bistabuster. when you do not rightly divide the word of truth, You can get the Bible to say anything you want it to. However when you compare Scripture with Scripture and rightly divide the word of truth, you allow the Scriptures to interpret themselves and you leave no room for your own private interpretation. Start allowing the Scriptures to interpret themselves.

 

[peterT]

1. Reuben
2. Simeon
3. Levi
4. Judah
5. Issachar
6. Zebulun
7. Gad
8. Asher
9. Dan
10. Ephraim
11. Manasseh
12. Naphtali
13. Benjamin.

That is easy to say.

Bet show the scripture strait from the Bible

Because the 12 tribes in Revelation are different to the twelve tribes in the OT

You can’t add some of them together to make 13.

So show it from the scriptures

 

[peterT]

I did not avoid Peter's question. I answered it. He just refused to accept and take the answer which I gave him. I gave him Scriputre copared with other Scriputres that teach a Pre-trib Rapture, masinly that the Body of Christ will taken off the earth before the time of Jacob's trouble starts.

And yes, in Matthew 24 is says the tribes of the earth mourn, well who are the tribes? Who is that passage talking about?

Read the context Bistabuster. when you do not rightly divide the word of truth, You can get the Bible to say anything you want it to. However when you compare Scripture with Scripture and rightly divide the word of truth, you allow the Scriptures to interpret themselves and you leave no room for your own private interpretation. Start allowing the Scriptures to interpret themselves.

But all you have shown is private interpretation.

And that is an excellent suggestion, to allowing the Scriptures to interpret themselves.

So why don’t you do that. And lets see if you can copy and paste just the scripture showing a pre-trib rapture. allowing the Scriptures to interpret themselves and live you private interpretation at home.

Just copy and paste just the scripture.

if you can

 

[ChosenbyHim]

But all you have shown is private interpretation.

And that is an excellent suggestion, to allowing the Scriptures to interpret themselves.

So why don’t you do that. And lets see if you can copy and paste just the scripture showing a pre-trib rapture. allowing the Scriptures to interpret themselves and live you private interpretation at home.

Just copy and paste just the scripture.

if you can

No Peter I haven't. I gave you the Scriptures that proved that the Body of Christ cannot be on this earth during the time of Jacob's trouble.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-12 KJV
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let , until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [9] Even him , whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[peterT]

No Peter I haven't. I gave you the Scriptures that proved that the Body of Christ cannot be on this earth during the time of Jacob's trouble.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-12 KJV
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let , until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [9] Even him , whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed

the “taken out of the way” is not a pre-trib rapture, And then shall that Wicked be revealed

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

You can’t have it both ways bro.

taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed.

for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.

So again I say live your private interpretation at home.

And Just copy and paste just the scripture that shows a pre-trib rapture.

taken out of the way And then shall that Wicked be revealed.
But the scripture says that day shall not come before the man of sin be revealed.

You can’t have it both ways bro.

“taken out of the way” is not the rapture, it’s just private interpretation

 

[ChosenbyHim]

taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed

the “taken out of the way” is not a pre-trib rapture, And then shall that Wicked be revealed

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

You can’t have it both ways bro.

taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed.

for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.

So again I say live your private interpretation at home.

And Just copy and paste just the scripture that shows a pre-trib rapture.

taken out of the way And then shall that Wicked be revealed.
But the scripture says that day shall not come before the man of sin be revealed.

You can’t have it both ways bro.

“taken out of the way” is not the rapture, it’s just private interpretation

Peter, you seem to be good at failing to read and look at the whole context of a passage of Scripture. The "That day shall not come" is not referring to the Rapture. It is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Which is a different event altogether from the Rapture. When you quote Scripture, please quote the whole passage or at least more than 1 or 2 verses.



2 Thessalonians 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-13 (King James Bible)

The context is referring to the Second Coming. The Day of the Lord refers to the Second Coming.

The Rapture is where the Lord Jesus Christ comes in the clouds and catches away His bride.

Then 7 years later, the Lord Jesus Christ comes down to the Earth and His feet lands on the Mount of Olives.

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Again Peter, compare Scripture with Scripture. Context will help you get the meaning.

 

[Bistabuster]

I did not avoid Peter's question. I answered it. He just refused to accept and take the answer which I gave him. I gave him Scriputre copared with other Scriputres that teach a Pre-trib Rapture, masinly that the Body of Christ will taken off the earth before the time of Jacob's trouble starts.

And yes, in Matthew 24 is says the tribes of the earth mourn, well who are the tribes? Who is that passage talking about?

Read the context Bistabuster. when you do not rightly divide the word of truth, You can get the Bible to say anything you want it to. However when you compare Scripture with Scripture and rightly divide the word of truth, you allow the Scriptures to interpret themselves and you leave no room for your own private interpretation. Start allowing the Scriptures to interpret themselves.

I still of yet have to see it and I haven't as of yet. Nothing states word verbatim that there is going to be a pre trib rapture, correct? It can possibly go either way. It's all how you look at it. How can I be sure there is a pre trib? I can't. It is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Post trib is. Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27 and Luke 21:25-28. If this is not a post trib Bible Scripture, then Jesus is a liar.

You have nothing that is this positive about a pre trib. This is as proof positive as you can get. You said 1 Cor 15:51-52 is when we get raptured, if I understood you correctly. If not, sorry. If that's the case, which it really doesn't matter all that much, all 1 Cor tells us is what will happen on a given day. It NEVER says when. Other verses correlating with that one gives us a when (not an exact day or year) it will occur. Acts 1:9-11 specifies when he comes down again FOR THE SECOND TIME!!!!, it will be in a cloud. Luke 21:27, Matt 24:30 and Mark 13:26 all state that Jesus is coming in the clouds. When? Certainly not before the tribulation. It says CLEARLY after the tribulation. Matt and Mark state that fact you don't want to listen to. No, this is not going to be a third coming or anything like that. It is non Scriptural and thus requires no Bible verses.

So, unless you can show me that the Bible says "Before the tribulation, the Son of man will come in the clouds to gather His saints" or something to that nature, then you have something I am not aware of for I find NONE. Until otherwise proven Scripturally, the pre tribulation rapture does not exist. Not when you have this many post trib rapture verses that don't contradict each other. There are many other verses I could go into but this covers my need to show you that there are many references dictating a post trib rapture and zero verses for a pre trib rapture.

 

[peterT]

Peter, you seem to be good at failing to read and look at the whole context of a passage of Scripture. The "That day shall not come" is not referring to the Rapture. It is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Which is a different event altogether from the Rapture. When you quote Scripture, please quote the whole passage or at least more than 1 or 2 verses.



2 Thessalonians 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-13 (King James Bible)

The context is referring to the Second Coming. The Day of the Lord refers to the Second Coming.

The Rapture is where the Lord Jesus Christ comes in the clouds and catches away His bride.

Then 7 years later, the Lord Jesus Christ comes down to the Earth and His feet lands on the Mount of Olives.

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Again Peter, compare Scripture with Scripture. Context will help you get the meaning.

NO its you that have taken it out of context.

“taken out of the way” is Not a rapture

The “taken out of the way” is just the hand of the lord moving out of the way, so it can start with the man of sin.

he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

“He” is not YOU, “He” is not the rapture

You don’t “Letteth”, it’s the lord that Letteth . “HE” is the lord.

What 7 years are you talking about?

The devil has power for 42 months 3 ½ years Not seven years, he has power over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rv13;5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

In those scriptures you quoted it says NOTHING about a pre-trib rapture, it’s just private interpretation.

And it certainly does not talk about seven years

 

[peterT]

Peter, you seem to be good at failing to read and look at the whole context of a passage of Scripture. The "That day shall not come" is not referring to the Rapture. It is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Which is a different event altogether from the Rapture. When you quote Scripture, please quote the whole passage or at least more than 1 or 2 verses.



2 Thessalonians 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.

You can’t be deceived about that day if you are already in the heavens according to you.

That DAY is when Jesus comes and gets us.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.

Its talking about the day the Lord Jesus Christ comes , and by our gathering together unto him,

You are trying to deceive us about that DAY.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.

You can’t be deceived about that day if you are already in the heavens according to you.

That DAY is when Jesus comes and gets us.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.

Its talking about the day the Lord Jesus Christ comes , and by our gathering together unto him,

You are trying to deceive us about that DAY.

No PeterT, not trying to deceive anyone. Just attempting to explain what the passage is talking about in the Context in which it is written in. The Day of the Lord is referring to the Second Coming. Now it can also include at times the 1,000 year Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ. After all, a day with the Lord is a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Again, the context of the passage will tell you. Now let us look at a great list Scriptures that refer to the Day Of the Lord. That way we can get a better understanding of the context and meaning of what is being addressed and talked about when Scripture refers to the Day of The Lord:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the day of the Lordof hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: - Isaiah 2:12(KJV)



[SUP]6 [/SUP]Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. - Isaiah 13:6 (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. - Isaiah 13:9 (KJV)


[SUP]8 [/SUP]For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. - Isaiah 34:8 (KJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the Lord's anger none escaped nor remained: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed. - Lamentations 2:22 (KJV)


[SUP]5 [/SUP]Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. - Ezekiel 13:5 (KJV)


[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen. - Ezekiel 30:3 (KJV)


[SUP]15 [/SUP]Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. - Joel 1:15 (KJV)


2 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; - Joel 2:1 (KJV)


[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? - Joel 2:11 (KJV)


[SUP]31 [/SUP]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. - Joel 2:31 (KJV)


[SUP]14 [/SUP]Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. - Joel 3:14 (KJV)


[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. - Joel 3:2 (KJV)



[SUP]12 [/SUP]Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. - Joel 3:12 (KJV)


[SUP]11 [/SUP]In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. - Zechariah 12:11 (KJV)


[SUP]18 [/SUP]Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light. - Amos 5:18 (KJV)


[SUP]20 [/SUP]Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it? - Amos 5:20 (KJV)


[SUP]15 [/SUP]For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. - Obadiah 1:15 (KJV)


[SUP]7 [/SUP]Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God: for the day of the Lordis at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. - Zephaniah 1:7 (KJV)


[SUP]8 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in the day of the Lord's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.- Zephaniah 1:8 (KJV)


[SUP]14 [/SUP]The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. - Zephaniah 1:14 (KJV)


[SUP]18 [/SUP]Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: forhe shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. - Zephaniah 1:18 (KJV)


[SUP]2 [/SUP]Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you. - Zephaniah 2:2 (KJV)


[SUP]3 [/SUP]Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger. - Zephaniah 2:3 (KJV)


14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. - Zechariah 14:1 (KJV)


[SUP]2 [/SUP]But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: - Malachi 3:2 (KJV)


4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: - Malachi 4:1-5 (KJV)


[SUP]20 [/SUP]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: - Acts 2:20 (KJV)


[SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. - 1 Corinthians 5:5 (KJV)


[SUP]14 [/SUP]As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus. - 2 Corinthians 1:14 (KJV)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. - 1 Thessalonians 5:2 (KJV)


[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? - 2 Peter 3:10-12 (KJV)

Now, having showed all those Scriptures referencing the day of the LORD, let us look at the passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:


2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work. - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-17 (KJV)

Now Peter, Do you see how comparing Scripture with Scripture helps? Do you see how when you rightly divide the word of truth and when you compare Scripture with Scripture, that the Scriptures will interpret themselves? That's exactly what happens when you compare Scripture with Scripture. They will interpret themselves.


When I see the Day of the Lord being referenced in the Scriptures. It is almost always referring to the Day of the Lord's Anger, the Day of the Lord's Wrath , and the Day of the Lord's Vengeance. The Context is Judgment, Wrath, Darkness, Gloominess, and Vengeance. So, it is obvious that the Scriptures teach that the Day of The Lord is His Second Coming. It is His Second Advent. I don't see how after reading all these Scriptures, that one can still think that the Day of the Lord is referring to the Rapture.


Paul described the Rapture first as a mystery (1 Corinthians 15:51). Out of all those references of the Day of the Lord, I don't think it resembles a mystery. The signs that precede the coming of the Lord in Joel 2:31 and Acts 2:20: (i.e. Sun turning into darkness & moon turning into blood), that still does not appear to me as a mystery. Those are notable signs. How do you interpret that as being a mystery Peter?


Also, if you read the whole passage in 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul was writing to the saints at Thessalonica to comfort them, because what happened was some of them in the church thought that the Rapture had already taken place. And Paul was simply addressing their concern about the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. After Paul had taught the Saints at Thessalonica about the Rapture and after his departutre, there were some false prophets who wrote letters to them claiming to be Paul, and saying that the Rapture already had taken place. That is why Paul, when he was just beginning to address them, told them not to be soon shaken in mind, or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor BY LETTER AS FROM US, as that The Day of Christ is at Hand. ( 2 Thess. 2:2).

Context always helps. So the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Rapture is also found in that passage, in fact it is right in verse 1. But everything after verse 1, from verse 2 and onward is clearly about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.


The Saints at Thessalonica already thought that they were in the Day of The Lord, since they had been wrongly convinced by someone pretending to be Paul that the Rapture had already taken place. Basically, they thought that they missed the rapture. Again Peter, read the context. Compare the Scriptures. If you want to understand a particular passage in the Bible. Then you must compare Scripture with Scripture.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. - 1 Corinthians 2:13 (KJV)

 

[Bistabuster]

No PeterT, not trying to deceive anyone. Just attempting to explain what the passage is talking about in the Context in which it is written in. The Day of the Lord is referring to the Second Coming. Now it can also include at times the 1,000 year Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ. After all, a day with the Lord is a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Again, the context of the passage will tell you. Now let us look at a great list Scriptures that refer to the Day Of the Lord. That way we can get a better understanding of the context and meaning of what is being addressed and talked about when Scripture refers to the Day of The Lord:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the day of the Lordof hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: - Isaiah 2:12(KJV)



[SUP]6 [/SUP]Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. - Isaiah 13:6 (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. - Isaiah 13:9 (KJV)


[SUP]8 [/SUP]For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. - Isaiah 34:8 (KJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the Lord's anger none escaped nor remained: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed. - Lamentations 2:22 (KJV)


[SUP]5 [/SUP]Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. - Ezekiel 13:5 (KJV)


[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen. - Ezekiel 30:3 (KJV)


[SUP]15 [/SUP]Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. - Joel 1:15 (KJV)


2 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; - Joel 2:1 (KJV)


[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? - Joel 2:11 (KJV)


[SUP]31 [/SUP]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. - Joel 2:31 (KJV)


[SUP]14 [/SUP]Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. - Joel 3:14 (KJV)


[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. - Joel 3:2 (KJV)



[SUP]12 [/SUP]Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. - Joel 3:12 (KJV)


[SUP]11 [/SUP]In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. - Zechariah 12:11 (KJV)


[SUP]18 [/SUP]Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light. - Amos 5:18 (KJV)


[SUP]20 [/SUP]Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it? - Amos 5:20 (KJV)


[SUP]15 [/SUP]For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. - Obadiah 1:15 (KJV)


[SUP]7 [/SUP]Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God: for the day of the Lordis at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. - Zephaniah 1:7 (KJV)


[SUP]8 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in the day of the Lord's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.- Zephaniah 1:8 (KJV)


[SUP]14 [/SUP]The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. - Zephaniah 1:14 (KJV)


[SUP]18 [/SUP]Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: forhe shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. - Zephaniah 1:18 (KJV)


[SUP]2 [/SUP]Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you. - Zephaniah 2:2 (KJV)


[SUP]3 [/SUP]Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger. - Zephaniah 2:3 (KJV)


14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. - Zechariah 14:1 (KJV)


[SUP]2 [/SUP]But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: - Malachi 3:2 (KJV)


4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: - Malachi 4:1-5 (KJV)


[SUP]20 [/SUP]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: - Acts 2:20 (KJV)


[SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. - 1 Corinthians 5:5 (KJV)


[SUP]14 [/SUP]As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus. - 2 Corinthians 1:14 (KJV)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. - 1 Thessalonians 5:2 (KJV)


[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? - 2 Peter 3:10-12 (KJV)

Now, having showed all those Scriptures referencing the day of the LORD, let us look at the passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:


2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work. - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-17 (KJV)

Now Peter, Do you see how comparing Scripture with Scripture helps? Do you see how when you rightly divide the word of truth and when you compare Scripture with Scripture, that the Scriptures will interpret themselves? That's exactly what happens when you compare Scripture with Scripture. They will interpret themselves.


When I see the Day of the Lord being referenced in the Scriptures. It is almost always referring to the Day of the Lord's Anger, the Day of the Lord's Wrath , and the Day of the Lord's Vengeance. The Context is Judgment, Wrath, Darkness, Gloominess, and Vengeance. So, it is obvious that the Scriptures teach that the Day of The Lord is His Second Coming. It is His Second Advent. I don't see how after reading all these Scriptures, that one can still think that the Day of the Lord is referring to the Rapture.


Paul described the Rapture first as a mystery (1 Corinthians 15:51). Out of all those references of the Day of the Lord, I don't think it resembles a mystery. The signs that precede the coming of the Lord in Joel 2:31 and Acts 2:20: (i.e. Sun turning into darkness & moon turning into blood), that still does not appear to me as a mystery. Those are notable signs. How do you interpret that as being a mystery Peter?


Also, if you read the whole passage in 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul was writing to the saints at Thessalonica to comfort them, because what happened was some of them in the church thought that the Rapture had already taken place. And Paul was simply addressing their concern about the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. After Paul had taught the Saints at Thessalonica about the Rapture and after his departutre, there were some false prophets who wrote letters to them claiming to be Paul, and saying that the Rapture already had taken place. That is why Paul, when he was just beginning to address them, told them not to be soon shaken in mind, or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor BY LETTER AS FROM US, as that The Day of Christ is at Hand. ( 2 Thess. 2:2).

Context always helps. So the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Rapture is also found in that passage, in fact it is right in verse 1. But everything after verse 1, from verse 2 and onward is clearly about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.


The Saints at Thessalonica already thought that they were in the Day of The Lord, since they had been wrongly convinced by someone pretending to be Paul that the Rapture had already taken place. Basically, they thought that they missed the rapture. Again Peter, read the context. Compare the Scriptures. If you want to understand a particular passage in the Bible. Then you must compare Scripture with Scripture.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. - 1 Corinthians 2:13 (KJV)

For me, I did. I have explained to you the reason there is a post tribulation by using other Scriptures that are relevant to the first. I showed you key words. The key word I used was cloud. Everywhere it says the coming of Jesus, such as Acts 1, has Him in a cloud.

I've been studying this for over 20 years and I have seen nothing that supports your claim. Don't be surprised to find yourself in a position that you think you won't be in for you already are in that position and you don't even know it.

Since you refuse to answer the question on 5 pages of posts, it is obvious to me that the pre tribulation isn't written in Scripture.

Listen VERY CAREFULLY to what I am about to say. "I want to see a verse (just one and only one) that says before the tribulation Jesus comes"

That's what I want. Show me something that says something like that. If you can't find one, then don't give me these heresay verses you've been dishing out to PeterT. Both of us have specifically asked for that one verse that you REFUSE to give us. You show that verse and I'm sure we'll sit down with you and listen to all the other verses you have, but not before we see that one.

So, are we at an understanding now? It's not too much to ask. If it's Scriptural, you should be able to access it. If not, it won't be there.