pretribulationalist?

4runner · Jul 25, 2011

Why is it that the pretribulationalist in the western church think they are too good to suffer for Christ? Are we better than Jesus, the Apostles, or the martyrs now living in China, Africa ect....? Tell your brothers and sisters in Christ throughout the world who are now suffering for Christ, that the God you serve wouldn't let YOU suffer. Tell them YOU will not have to endure the Tribulation. See what response you get.

May God open the eyes of the lukewarm American church before it is too late

eternally-gratefull · Jul 25, 2011

4runner said:

why is it that people do not understand that when God says "tribulation such as the world has never seen before, and will never see again" God means that this tribulation will make the tribulation now suffered by those in Africa, China, by the apostles look like a day at the beach.

Pretribbers do nt teach man will not suffer tribulation. if they do. they do not know scripture. What they teach is they will not suffer Gods wrath. Which is exactly what Scripture teaches.

Scripture teaches this tribulation is going to be so severe that if God did not intervene, No man would be spared (left alive on earth) how anyone can compair this with anything that is happening, or has happened in the past is beyond me

4runner · Jul 25, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

No one whether they believe in the pretrib, mid trib, pre-wrath, post trib rapture believe that christians will suffer ''God's wrath''

However pretribers have to not only ignore multitudes of scripture to hold on to their false doctrine, but they have to twist others to force them to say things they dont

eternally-gratefull · Jul 25, 2011

4runner said:

lol. Well lookie here. Postribers and ammilinialists must do the same. so where are we left??

by the way, Post tribbers do think christians will suffer Gods wrath. Because they think while God is dealing out his wrath on the earth. Christians will die and suffer along with all the evil who will suffer and die because of Gods wrath. So who is twisting?

4runner · Jul 25, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

No they dint. You reaslly should know what someone believes before you oppose them

eternally-gratefull · Jul 25, 2011

4runner said:

You act as if I have never studied them before my friend. I have spent many many years studying all opinions and beliefs concerning end times.

Again. Saying you do not do something does not always equal what you preach. I showed you how they DO believe they will suffer Gods wrath. yet you did not even respond to what I said. You just telling me they don't does not prove anything.

damombomb · Jul 25, 2011

Rev7:9the great multitude who came out of great tribulation of every toung ,kindred and nation.

4runner · Jul 25, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

I am a post tribber, and i DO NOT believe we suffer God's wrath

4runner · Jul 25, 2011

damombomb said:

Very true damombomb, through martyrdom, not rapture

Avinu · Jul 25, 2011

Why is it that the pretribulationalist in the western church think they are too good to suffer for Christ? Are we better than Jesus, the Apostles, or the martyrs now living in China, Africa ect....? Tell your brothers and sisters in Christ throughout the world who are now suffering for Christ, that the God you serve wouldn't let YOU suffer. Tell them YOU will not have to endure the Tribulation. See what response you get.

May God open the eyes of the lukewarm American church before it is too late [/QUOTE Amen 4runner, preach it. Even Yeshua said that the servant is not greater than the master. Yeshua suffered worse than we could ever endure. Even the disciples Praised God for counting them worthy to suffer for His name sake. It cracks me up that that this mentality of thinking even exists. They are really going to hate it when the trib. starts and they're still here. There's only one thing we will not endure during trib. and that's God's wrath at the end. I.E. 7 bowls of trumpets of God's wrath. But it doesn't say we won't be here to see it happen. Psalm 91:7-8, to paraphrase, it will not come near you, you will see and watch the punishment of the wicked. I don't understand why it seems so hard to understand the Word. Shalom

Scotth1960 · Jul 25, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

why is it that people do not understand that when God says "tribulation such as the world has never seen before, and will never see again" God means that this tribulation will make the tribulation now suffered by those in Africa, China, by the apostles look like a day at the beach.

Pretribbers do nt teach man will not suffer tribulation. if they do. they do not know scripture. What they teach is they will not suffer Gods wrath. Which is exactly what Scripture teaches.

Scripture teaches this tribulation is going to be so severe that if God did not intervene, No man would be spared (left alive on earth) how anyone can compair this with anything that is happening, or has happened in the past is beyond me.

Deareternallygratefull, If our LORD Jesus Christ had willed to take His Church out of the world before a future greatest tribulation to come, He would have prayed: "Father, I pray that Thou shouldest take them out of the world before the coming great tribulation to come, the day when the Man of Sin shall be revealed."
Did Christ pray that prayer? No! Therefore, His Church will not be taken out of the world before the end of the world.
He prayed, "I do not pray that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." John 17:15. John 17:15 proves the pre-tribulation rapture is forever impossible, for the Church will not be taken to heaven before the end of the world (age), but only at the end of the age with the second coming of Christ at the end of all time.
God bless you.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

4runner · Jul 25, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

eternally-gratefull said:

Deareternallygratefull, If our LORD Jesus Christ had willed to take His Church out of the world before a future greatest tribulation to come, He would have prayed: "Father, I pray that Thou shouldest take them out of the world before the coming great tribulation to come, the day when the Man of Sin shall be revealed."
Did Christ pray that prayer? No! Therefore, His Church will not be taken out of the world before the end of the world.
He prayed, "I do not pray that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." John 17:15. John 17:15 proves the pre-tribulation rapture is forever impossible, for the Church will not be taken to heaven before the end of the world (age), but only at the end of the age with the second coming of Christ at the end of all time.
God bless you.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

A hearty Amen!!!!!!!!!!!

Scotth1960 · Jul 25, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

"Utopian Dreams" "Flight from God produces in worldly man a desire to build on earth the paradise which he has rejected in heaven. Utopian ideals have galvanized human thought throughout history. Eve's temptation had utopian roots (springing as it did from Satan, the ultimate utopian) -- the promise of a life in which man, not God, ruled. One of the most obvious utopian scheme portrayed in Holy Scripture was the Tower of Babel. The failure of this enterprise established an archetype for man's inability to create a successful surrogate of his true heavenly home.
"Man has never been able to devise his own earthly paradise. Every attempt had crumbled, for the Garden has been cordoned off by a legion of angels. And the perfection man seeks cannot be found or created by him in this world. As Father Seraphim Rose explained, "God's creation is imperfect, for if it were perfect man would be satisfied with it alone and not led by its "broken" character to what must be above it. .... Man can rest only in God, so God alone is perfect, and the imperfections of the world and of men only lead us to what is truly perfect. Modern man, however, wants to rest in this world, so he had to make it perfect; since it obviously is not he must make it so. Hence the ideal, utopian character of all rational schemes of the world. ... The choice before man is alwas the same: perfection in this world, or perfection in the other world. Man is not made to be able to live without the hope of some kind of perfection. For modern man, then, the choice is: the rationalist utopia, or God." (1)
"Paradoxically, utopia offers nothing "new" to those seeking satisfaction on this earth, but rather a hopelessly distorted and imperfect vision of the divine order. Yet foolish man continues to imagine that he can achieve the impossible: create his own heaven and be its gods. Whatever he actually established (always temporarily) some kind of utopian society, however, its members are inevitably and inexorably reduced to a sublife of spiritual and social impoverishment.
"For Christians, utopia is usually based on the notion that Christ will return and establish a thousand-year earthly kingdom for His saints. This idea, called chiliasm or millenarianism, is hardly novel, having been thoroughly examined at the Second Ecumenical Council in the year 381 and condemned as a superstitious aberration.
"Many Protestant commentators consider chiliastic proclivities to be within the normal range of opinion and speculation, thus revealing their estrangement from the wisdom of Apostolic Tradition. But the Fathers of the Church branded this teaching as a heresy precisely because it is dangerous!
"This false teaching wreaks terrible harm," wrote Archbishop Averky, "lulling to sleep the spiritual vigilance of the faithful and suggesting to them that the end of the world is far away (if in fact there will be an end), and therefore there is no particular need to watch and pray, to which Christ the Saviour constantly called His followers (cf. Mt. 26:42), since everythin[g in the] world is gradually getting better and better, spiritual progress keeping step with materialism." (2)
"Orthodoxy teaches that chiliastic are heretical - based on Satan's age-old rebellion against God. According to Father Michael Pomazansky, "If it was at one time possible tto express chiliastic ideas as private opinions, this was only until the Ecumenical Church expressed its judgment about this. But when the Second Ecumenical Council (381), in condemning all the errors of the heretic Apollinarius, condemned also his teaching of the thousand-year reign of Christ and introduced into the very Symbol of Faith the words concerning Christ: And His Kingdom will have no end -- it became no longer permissible at all for an Orthodox Christian to hold these opinions." (3)" [pages 114-116: Engleman, Dennis E. (1995). Ultimate Things: An Orthodox Christian Perspective on the End Times. Ben Lomond, CA: Conciliar Press.].

Notes
1. Eugene (Fr. Seraphim) Rose, "Christian Realism and Worldly Idealism", The Orthodox Word, Vol. 22, No. 3 (128), May-June 1986; p. 133.

2. The Apocalypse of St. John, p. 228..

3. Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, p. 344.

God save us in Christ Jesus the Everlasting Saviour and LORD of all. In Erie PA Scott R.

Harrington July 2011 AD

peterT · Jul 25, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

Persecution or persecution unto death, and God’s wrath are two different things.

“I have spent many many years studying all opinions and beliefs concerning end times”.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again

1 Thessalonians 5:9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 2:8But unto them that are contentious, and do not OBEY the truth, but OBEY unrighteousness, indignation and WRATH,

We are not appointed unto wrath because we are NOT the children of disobedience.

Persecution or persecution unto death, and God’s wrath are two different things.

But remember about Moses and the Plagues of Egypt, how God will keep you safe if you obey the lord.

Exodus 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians

Deut 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, [even] in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;31 (For the LORD thy God [is] a merciful God

he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee

Remember Daniel. God kept them through the fire NOT from the fire, and through the lions, NOT from the lions. And Noah through the flood NOT from the flood.

THE WRATH IS POURD OUT ON THE WICKED. So God hath not appointed us to wrath.

Persecution or persecution unto death, and God’s wrath are two different things.

Post-tribulation Christians are protected from Gods wrath if they OBEY. BUT some are persecution unto death just like are forefathers in the Bible.

Daniel 11:35 And [some] of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make [them] WHITE, [even] to the time of the end: because [it is] yet for a time appointed.
Daniel 12:10Many shall be purified, and made WHITE, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

XGraveX · Jul 26, 2011

Believers in the church age receive persecution and tribulation but not the great tribulation. I believe in the pre trib rapture for church age saints and post trib rapture for tribulation saints according to scripture.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Galatians 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

2 Corinthians 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

2 Corinthians 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Foxe's Book of Martyrs? How about the Albigenses, Waldensians, Hugenots, etc .. all the Christians that the Romans tortured/killed (these are all church age saints) all suffering and dying for the Lord Jesus Christ

damombomb · Jul 26, 2011

What about Elijha he believed he would not see death and didnt?

Avinu · Jul 26, 2011

He was told he wouldn't see death. We are not told we won't see death.

foundthetruth · Jul 26, 2011

The pre-tribulation rapture is not biblical and if it were, there would be many surprised "Christians" left behind. (The majority of Christians are hypocrites and liars and will not see the Lord unless they repent.)

Time to wake up people.

4runner · Jul 26, 2011

foundthetruth said:

I couldnt agree more

XGraveX · Jul 26, 2011

foundthetruth said:

what do you mean when you say "majority of Christians?"

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