probably the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots
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no I don't hold to tradition, of all 613 commands both positive and negative, after you eliminate the ones giving direction in sacrifice, (all the various ones) and the ones pertaining to women and priest there remains about 230 or so, and even among these some are specific to land owners or owners of slaves, the command in the NT is to live peaceably among all men where it be possible, so even though the command may say to stone one to death for this or that does not give anyone the authority to do so, (not that anyone in the Messiah would want to) we are not to resist the authority over us by governments unless it directly goes against the commands from the almighty, such as not being allowed to gather peaceably to worship or things of that nature.
keep in mind these laws were given to a people under a theocracy and the cultural constructs of that time made it needful for immediate punishment for certain offenses. now we are in the age of grace and there for no longer is anyone put to death by the word of 2 or 3 witnesses and by the authority of the judges at the gate... as for me I obey the commands that I see as relevant and possible to perform in this day and time. I really don't see this as a pick and choose sort of thing but rather is dictated by the authority the Father has us under now. I hope this better explains my position.
keep in mind these laws were given to a people under a theocracy and the cultural constructs of that time made it needful for immediate punishment for certain offenses. now we are in the age of grace and there for no longer is anyone put to death by the word of 2 or 3 witnesses and by the authority of the judges at the gate... as for me I obey the commands that I see as relevant and possible to perform in this day and time. I really don't see this as a pick and choose sort of thing but rather is dictated by the authority the Father has us under now. I hope this better explains my position.
M
To those who do not think we need to obey the Fathers Will as shown in His commands anymore I have a question.... How do you decide which ones it is Okay to ignore or at least disobey, and which ones to keep? Like the rule against adultery is still vailid but you can eat any meat you want or add pagan holidays into our faith while dropping the biblical. (Both adding and subtracting holidays is forbidden as well as taking things from other worship systems) how on earth do you justify this and decide which laws He didn't really mean?
M
Well now, interesting question. Made more complicated by some of the less accurate translations use of the word “tradition” I wont get into that though.
There is nothing wrong with having or teaching tradition per se. The problem comes with elevating tradition to be equal or greater than our Fathers Word.
So if your family tradition is to have Goat on Passover, that is fine it is line with scripture. But if you start teaching goat is the only thing you can or should eat on Passover you are sinning by your tradition because Our Father said either got or sheep was acceptable. This is where we are called to become Bereans.
Also. Traditions are not Commands. If you wish to establish new traditions based on changing needs or availability this is fine. For instance the various four cornered garments worn by different groups of Torah keeping groups are different from each other and different in tradition than what was worn by those in the exodus or in The Masters time. Yet each was not only traditional but also in line with Torah. However the belt loop tzittsi worn by many HRM adherents may not be as they are not affixed to a four cornered garment. They are a new tradition yet they do not meet Torah so are to be reexamined
So tradition is fine but not mandatory to keep or to ignore. But Torah is Torah.
Some verses to consider.
2 Thessalonians:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle
The word “tradition here is:
G3862
Original: παράδοσις
Transliteration: paradosis
Phonetic: par-ad'-os-is
Thayer Definition:
1. giving up, giving over
a. the act of giving up
b. the surrender of cities
2. a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc. objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching
Origin: from G3860
TDNT entry: 04:52,2
Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
So that would mean that the traditions spoken of here were the traditions established by the apostles and Early believers. Such as the tradition of allowing Gentile believers into the fellowship. And not the traditions of the Pharisees the Master spoke out against.
Or read mark 7 or Pauls warning against the traditions of men in Colossians2
There is nothing wrong with having or teaching tradition per se. The problem comes with elevating tradition to be equal or greater than our Fathers Word.
So if your family tradition is to have Goat on Passover, that is fine it is line with scripture. But if you start teaching goat is the only thing you can or should eat on Passover you are sinning by your tradition because Our Father said either got or sheep was acceptable. This is where we are called to become Bereans.
Also. Traditions are not Commands. If you wish to establish new traditions based on changing needs or availability this is fine. For instance the various four cornered garments worn by different groups of Torah keeping groups are different from each other and different in tradition than what was worn by those in the exodus or in The Masters time. Yet each was not only traditional but also in line with Torah. However the belt loop tzittsi worn by many HRM adherents may not be as they are not affixed to a four cornered garment. They are a new tradition yet they do not meet Torah so are to be reexamined
So tradition is fine but not mandatory to keep or to ignore. But Torah is Torah.
Some verses to consider.
2 Thessalonians:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle
The word “tradition here is:
G3862
Original: παράδοσις
Transliteration: paradosis
Phonetic: par-ad'-os-is
Thayer Definition:
1. giving up, giving over
a. the act of giving up
b. the surrender of cities
2. a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc. objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching
Origin: from G3860
TDNT entry: 04:52,2
Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
So that would mean that the traditions spoken of here were the traditions established by the apostles and Early believers. Such as the tradition of allowing Gentile believers into the fellowship. And not the traditions of the Pharisees the Master spoke out against.
Or read mark 7 or Pauls warning against the traditions of men in Colossians2
M
Your bible must be easy to read with only one page. Just kidding. I must warn you though brother. You are going contrary to the Word. We are in a Covenant with our Father. A covenant is a contract. The title if the contract is Love Your Creator With All You Are and Love your Neighbor As Yourself. There are 10 headings. These are the Commandments. Under these are the 600 odd laws each under at least one of the ten headings. If youn say you keep the heading that means you krep the body.
Our master said if you love him keep the Commandments. As did the man who wrote Galations. If you love your neighbor you are helping them learn and keep the contract as much as you are showing them the Grace clause. And the Master is not overruled by the servant. Messiah kept, taught and even toughened the Commandments. If you love your neighbor i am sure you are teaching them this right?
Our master said if you love him keep the Commandments. As did the man who wrote Galations. If you love your neighbor you are helping them learn and keep the contract as much as you are showing them the Grace clause. And the Master is not overruled by the servant. Messiah kept, taught and even toughened the Commandments. If you love your neighbor i am sure you are teaching them this right?
Great attitude MacBestus! 
For what it's worth, Wkikpedia says this about the HRM.
For what it's worth, Wkikpedia says this about the HRM.
- Both the Old and New Testaments are held as holy books. The Torah serves as the foundation to all subsequent understanding and interpretation of Scripture. A foundational distinction of the Hebrew Roots movement is the manner in which Scripture is translated and interpreted so that later testimony (particularly the New Testament, or "Brit Chadashah") does not conflict with Torah commandments. It is believed by those in the Hebrew Roots movement that Yeshua the Messiah did not come to establish a new religion or to “do away” with the law.
- Salvation derives from the belief in Yeshua the Messiah as personal savior, not from commandment/Torah keeping; however, believers are rewarded according to their fruits, works, and obedience. Hebrew Roots followers believe that sin is breaking the Torah (cf. 1 John 3:4), all of the purity laws such as dietary restrictions and sabbath keeping are in the Torah, thus it is sinful to not keep the sabbath and to eat forbidden animals, among other social and religious observance laws. It is also true, according to some Hebrew Roots followers[SUP][citation needed][/SUP], that those who are truly born of God will not continue in sin (cf. 1John 3:9), therefore, if you are not moved to keep the sabbath or to keep dietary restrictions, you must not truly be born of God.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]
- The Jewish Oral Law (the Talmud) does not represent Scriptural requirements to be obeyed, but can provide deeper understanding as to how some have applied the Scriptures to practical life. Traditions considered to have Pagan origins, such as Christmas, adopted by Judaism and/or Christianity are to be avoided.
- Old Testament/Torah Laws and the teachings of the New Testament are to be obeyed by both Jews and Gentiles (proselytes). (See Numbers 15:15-16 for the explanation).
- The Hebrew language is generally studied because it amplifies an understanding of the Scriptural text.
- Unlike traditional Americans,[SUP][20][/SUP] followers of the Hebrew Roots movement actively study the Scriptures as well as the history, faith, and culture of the first and second century, to understand how traditional Christianity diverged from its Hebrew roots. Generally speaking, however, they do not recognise the work of modern first century historians outside their own viewpoint, such as Craig Evans, George Nickelsburg, Jacob Neusner, James D. G. Dunn, E. P. Sanders et al.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]
- The moedim or appointed times listed in Leviticus 23, including the 7th day Sabbath and the Feast days, foreshadow the 1st and 2nd comings of the Messiah and the Creator's plan of salvation for the world.
M
Not on what you said. What I did say was that I would look on traditions as interpretations of the Commandments, as we are told by Paul, among others, in the book of Romans that the Jews have an advantage in every way because they have had His words and prophets the longest. We are also told by Messiah, who out weighs everyone else in scripture, that we are not to take tradition over His law. So final decision on a tradition does not in any way fall to my human decision making. His laws are very simple and very plain, requiring no special interpretations. This seems to have held true in "poop gate" when it was shown how plain the scripture was. And it plainly showed your assertation that the laws of our father were against indoor plumbing. Which was either silly or blasphemous of you depending on how you look at it. But it definately shows the problem with trying to "interpret" them rather than read them plainly.
It also shows your dedication to holding onto twisting Paul into teaching Lawlessness despite his own words to the contrary, in Acts and Romans among othrr places and Peters warning that those who do this are unlearned and unstable in 2 Peter 3. Verses you have been given but not refuted along with The MESSIAH HIMSELF who spoke on this counter your position in the Matthew and Mark verses I offered. But you think overruled by your particular reading of Paul.
No i do not lean on my own understanding but on the plain teachings of the WHOLE book.
It also shows your dedication to holding onto twisting Paul into teaching Lawlessness despite his own words to the contrary, in Acts and Romans among othrr places and Peters warning that those who do this are unlearned and unstable in 2 Peter 3. Verses you have been given but not refuted along with The MESSIAH HIMSELF who spoke on this counter your position in the Matthew and Mark verses I offered. But you think overruled by your particular reading of Paul.
No i do not lean on my own understanding but on the plain teachings of the WHOLE book.
'What I did say was that I would look on traditions as interpretations of the Commandments, as we are told by Paul, among others, in the book of Romans that the Jews have an advantage in every way because they have had His words and prophets the longest.'
you do consider Jewish traditions to be binding, then?
you do consider Jewish traditions to be binding, then?
M
I quoted that verse too. I do not think it about tradition. I think it ia about gtowing up in Torah as it is not in a writing about tradition but in a writing about Torah. That being said the Jewish traditions are to be examined on light of the Scripture and the Testimony of Messiah and the ones that violate are to be ignored.
Or as a short answer No, Not if they violate torah or the words of our Saviour.
Or as a short answer No, Not if they violate torah or the words of our Saviour.
M
Ahh you are an adherent of the so called "
Law" of first mention sillyness. That cuts both ways. It has also been used to promote such sillyness as women being bigger sinners than men. Or other silliness such as God said that it is not good for a man to be alone (Gen 2:18), and did not create a second, celibate man. Therefore, celibacy is unwise, and all men must be married if they expect to be happy. (See Matt 19:10-12 for a refutation.)
Eve was Adam's only wife, and because he listened to her all of humanity suffers sickness, sin, and death (Rom 5:12). Therefore, every man should have at least two wives to counter-balance the potentially unwise advice of one wife, because, as Solomon wrote, a three-fold cord is not easily broken (Ecc 4:12).
The first time someone brought a botanical offering to God, that offering was rejected (Gen 4:2-5). Therefore God does not want such offerings. (See Lev 5:11 and 27:30 for a refutation.)
The first murderer was also a farmer (Gen 4:2), and his descendants were the first to dabble in metallurgy, music, and tent-making (Gen 4:20-22). Therefore, farmers are likely to be more violent than husbandmen, and murder promotes industry and art.
This are cut and pasted from a bible research page, but are still valid to show the stupidity of putting yojrself under such. On biblical "laws"
Okay so lets look at the verse you chose.
So in this case a single thing was accomplished to validate his word. Because everything His prophets said in the Book will come true. Messiah fulfilled many prophecies and parts of Torah during his walk. But not all of them... Not even close. And we are even told that after the second coming, during the Milleneum, when He is ruling, the Feasts from Torah will be kept and if any nation does not do the command of Torah and sed their Men to Jerusalem to keep the feast they willl
Recieve no rain for a year... Case in point that not ALL is fulfilled. Or else Heaven and earth would.have past away. This happens 1000 years after the second coming. Why are you fighting so hard to make good evil. And violating the law. The very definition of evil good!