probably the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots

MacBestus · Nov 23, 2016

Ahh more things to talk about. I see you ascribe to latter dating of the L source theory. At least in part as most adherents of this throw Acts in with it as they appear to many Scholars to be a single work in two volumes. I gather you consider the work a psudeographia and not written either by the apostle Luke or Luke the Evangelist who accompanied the Apostle Paul. Interesting theory. But does not necessarily ascribing Gentile authorship even if true, which it does not appear to be. That being said.

Torah is ALWAYS interpreted in light of Messiah by believers. Some believe him to have come in the first century. And some are still waiting, either way it is still about Messiah.
As to breaking Torah into three parts there are several ways this has been done. Dispensationalists and Jehovas Witnesses tend to use the descriptions you have. Rabbinic Judaism uses a much different breakdown. But I say there are no Divisions. Messiah came as sin Offering. Fulfilling that part of Torah. Yet the apostles kept Ceremonial vows and paid for sacrifices in the temple. So some work needs to be done here to explain your theories. I do not say that believers become Jews. But they are grafted into the nation of Israel.
As far as your definition of Judaiser someone who promotes circumcision, please provide me with that verse.

MacBestus · Nov 23, 2016

Dan_473 said:

I always find it interesting the lengths that people who wish to promote or hold onto lawlessness will split hairs to try to show Our Fathers laws silly or outdated. It rea)y is a firm of Phariseism.

That being said. If you have a semi permanent camp it would be setup the same as a settlement. If you have a dug latrine in a camp, unless things have changed since my day latrines are not by the food/sleeping area but dug o. The outside of the encampment but inside the picket. Or are a chemical affair set up for a camp that may ne one nigjt or a hundred yet still falling under the semi permanent banner. If you are out on recon you certainly do not poop in your tent or mess.

MacBestus · Nov 23, 2016

Dan_473 said:

Of course we do. We all are sinners and fall short of his Glory. We are moved to make him the focus of our life when we are truly converted. To be closer to his ideals. Not for Salvation but because we are saved and we wish to please him and serve as an example to the nations. A light on a hill. To this end we listen to the spirit which he has given us. A PERFECT spirit. Which according to the scriptures will teach us his law. We should heed this supernatural jiminy cricket and constantly struggle to avoid the carnal nature. Identified by sin (Romans). Yet occasionally, whether through ignorance or avarice we will falter. Praise the Messiah for his Gift of Grace at these times. But be careful of repeated willful sin (law breaking) as that is a rejection of the Holy Spirit that you asked for and accepted at your conversion. You actually blaspheme that Living Spirit in it when you reject it. And we are severely warned against it.

MacBestus · Nov 23, 2016

I again apologize for my typos.but my arthritis is working me hard this week.

oldethennew · Nov 23, 2016

for us, it's all about accepting supernatural Love, and submitting, and then obeying...
not an easy combination, but one that will help you reap Heavenly Rewards...

mcubed · Nov 23, 2016

MacBestus said:

Ahh more things to talk about. I see you ascribe to latter dating of the L source theory. At least in part as most adherents of this throw Acts in with it as they appear to many Scholars to be a single work in two volumes. I gather you consider the work a psudeographia and not written either by the apostle Luke or Luke the Evangelist who accompanied the Apostle Paul. Interesting theory. But does not necessarily ascribing Gentile authorship even if true, which it does not appear to be. That being said.

Torah is ALWAYS interpreted in light of Messiah by believers. Some believe him to have come in the first century. And some are still waiting, either way it is still about Messiah.
As to breaking Torah into three parts there are several ways this has been done. Dispensationalists and Jehovas Witnesses tend to use the descriptions you have. Rabbinic Judaism uses a much different breakdown. But I say there are no Divisions. Messiah came as sin Offering. Fulfilling that part of Torah. Yet the apostles kept Ceremonial vows and paid for sacrifices in the temple. So some work needs to be done here to explain your theories. I do not say that believers become Jews. But they are grafted into the nation of Israel.
As far as your definition of Judaiser someone who promotes circumcision, please provide me with that verse.

I love this. Thank you so much. I did not know I subscribed to a title, I thought I was just a messianic Jew, because I am a Jew by race. What is it the L source theory? What is that?

MacBestus · Nov 23, 2016

mcubed said:

Seminary was long ago and I never ascribed to the L source\synoptic gospel business so you might get a better less biased description elsewhere- that being said.

Some believe that the Gospel named Luke was acually based on Oral tradition around the gospel of Matthew based on similar accounts and language similarities. They say this counted for a separate non eyewitness hypothetical source which is referred to as the L source that is separate from the eyewitness report by Matthew. Referred to as the M source.

All claptrap to me based on the evidence.

A mesianic Jew is someone who ascribes to the Rabbinic Jewish religion with the Addition of Yahshua as Messiah and occaisionaly the addition of the Roman Sun Worship Holidays. They are about 50% Jewish and %50 gentile descent. HRM Is made up of Jews and Gentile descent people who discount Roman AND Rabbinical additions to the bible.

The percentages are not known because they do not have a central leadership and groups range from churchs of about 50,000 to individual believers here and there.

mcubed · Nov 23, 2016

As far as your definition of Judaiser someone who promotes circumcision said:

Sorry forgot to add the scripture you asked for, it comes from Torah and the New Testament … Genesis 34 [SUP]13 [/SUP]Because their sister Dinah had been defiled, Jacob’s sons replied deceitfully as they spoke to Shechem and his father Hamor. [SUP]14 [/SUP]They said to them, “We can’t do such a thing; we can’t give our sister to a man who is not circumcised. That would be a disgrace to us. [SUP]15 [/SUP]We will enter into an agreement with you on one condition only: that you become like us by circumcising all your males. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Then we will give you our daughters and take your daughters for ourselves. We’ll settle among you and become one people with you. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But if you will not agree to be circumcised, we’ll take our sister and go.”… New Testament Acts 15 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” [SUP]2 [/SUP]This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. [SUP]3 [/SUP]The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoeniciaand Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. [SUP]4 [/SUP]When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Phariseesstood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]The apostles and elders met to consider this question. [SUP]7 [/SUP]After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. [SUP]8 [/SUP]God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. [SUP]9 [/SUP]He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? [SUP]11 [/SUP]No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Dan_473 · Nov 23, 2016

MacBestus said:

I always find it interesting the lengths that people who wish to promote or hold onto lawlessness will split hairs to try to show Our Fathers laws silly or outdated. It rea)y is a firm of Phariseism.

That being said. If you have a semi permanent camp it would be setup the same as a settlement. If you have a dug latrine in a camp, unless things have changed since my day latrines are not by the food/sleeping area but dug o. The outside of the encampment but inside the picket. Or are a chemical affair set up for a camp that may ne one nigjt or a hundred yet still falling under the semi permanent banner. If you are out on recon you certainly do not poop in your tent or mess.

If the camp is not permanent, then a person must go outside of it, and take their shovel?

Dan_473 · Nov 23, 2016

MacBestus said:

Of course we do. We all are sinners and fall short of his Glory. We are moved to make him the focus of our life when we are truly converted. To be closer to his ideals. Not for Salvation but because we are saved and we wish to please him and serve as an example to the nations. A light on a hill. To this end we listen to the spirit which he has given us. A PERFECT spirit. Which according to the scriptures will teach us his law. We should heed this supernatural jiminy cricket and constantly struggle to avoid the carnal nature. Identified by sin (Romans). Yet occasionally, whether through ignorance or avarice we will falter. Praise the Messiah for his Gift of Grace at these times. But be careful of repeated willful sin (law breaking) as that is a rejection of the Holy Spirit that you asked for and accepted at your conversion. You actually blaspheme that Living Spirit in it when you reject it. And we are severely warned against it.

Yes, we strive to fulfill the law

GALATIANS 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

garee · Nov 23, 2016

MacBestus said:

Like the Pharisees with Sadducee after the things of men, as a law of the fathers? Or those who do not need a man to teach them making the oral traditions of the fathers rendering them useless.

I would think the wisdom of this world after the god of this world turns the things of God upside down after the flesh and not after the Spirit.

Desertsrose · Nov 23, 2016

MacBestus said:

Hi MacBestus,

My husband and I visited a Messianic Church for a couple years; they called themselves Messianic Jews. It was not rabbinic at all. Only the word of God. We learned so much about the Jewishness of our faith and loved every minute we were there.

So maybe not all Messianic Jews are the same so it's not good to put them all in one category. In fact I only know of a few, but the Messianic Jews I do know have nothing to do with Rabbinic Judaism. It's the bible only.

Just like the Hebrew Roots groups. Most of the groups I've seen on the internet do study the Talmud and the Mishnah and some of them make a big deal about having to use the correct word for God. I even joined one of their forums not realizing what they believed and after reading many of the posts, I decided it wasn't for me.

And the Messianic Jewish groups I know of are Jews and Gentiles as well. And actually, as far as I know, the HRM is fairly a newer thing isn't it?

JaumeJ · Nov 24, 2016

Since the first Israel guided by the law was a theocracy, any named denomination, Sadducee, Pharisee, Hebrew Roots, JFJ, RCC, all Protesstant, denominations are suspect by virtue of not being apt to label our Savior or His Apostles.

Thinkk about it. Is Jesus Christ anything other than the faith of Abraham when it is concerning His "denomination?" The thought is ludicous.

However Jesus Christ does teach the faith of Abraham....Praise God, amen.

Dan_473 · Nov 24, 2016

JaumeJ said:

Interesting idea
Reminds me of

JOHN 8:58 Jesus told them, "I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am."

JaumeJ · Nov 24, 2016

I do not know if you have read a post where again I mentioned the faith of Abraham taught by Jesus Christ.

This "faith of Abraham" takes on a wonderful newness when we consider Abraham translats as Father of ntions. Yes, the faith of Abraham, amen.

MacBestus · Nov 24, 2016

mcubed said:

.”

These are both verses that could easily be confused as the definition. I see your logic path. I feel maybe you are wrong about it though, and here is why.

Your first verse occurs before the tribe of Judah exists.
So it cannot be a “Jewish” thing. Perhaps Abrahamic. And they were commanded this by The Father by his instruction to Abraham. So this verse is suspect for a Judaiser definition.

The second is better but has to do with the “Circumcision Party” which were historically a sub group of Pharisees which believed that Circumcision was the most important outward sign of conversion to the Hebrew Messiahs faith. And they advocated that it was a form of baptism that was required for salvation. Sort of the Once Saved Always Saved folks that say if you read a formula prayer off a card you can do whatever you like going forward and you are one of the saved.
They were fixated on an actual command of the father. Idolizing that action as salvation and not the messiah. That however was not a Jewish teaching. It was Hebrew. All the tribes practiced it. Or even Abrahamic as all the tribes descended from Abraham did this. Not just Israel.
A Judaiser would be someone who taught things peculiar to the tribe of the Jews. Such as the Talmudic rules.
There are just over 600 rules, commands, orders or instructions in the entire bible. Many of them are common sense, some are gender specific, Levite specific, geographic specific, or only for certain times. The long and short of it is there are not many that apply to most individuals. And those are almost always pretty easy things. The Jewish people however have added THOUSANDS OF OTHER LAWS. Some as refinements of bible laws called “hedge laws” they were designed to provide extra barriers to prevent breaking of any biblical ordinances. Such as the command not to boil a goat calf in its own mothers milk (a form of sacrifice to pagan deities in Canaan)was modified into a prohibition against eating dairy and meat together that has resulted in many ordinances about what kind of cheese constitutes milk and how many hours must pass between a glass of milk and a hamburger. Others are less obvious in there origin such as the order in which one should put on ones shoes and then tie them in the morning.
The Master addressed this Judaizing very plainly in Mark 7.

Mark 7
1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. note
3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.note
4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. note note
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching fordoctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. note
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother;and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
After Messiah left us in the flesh most of the new Believers were Jews. These Jews had been trained their whole lives in these extra rules and needed constant reminding about leaving them and not teaching them
Including salvation by circumcision.

MacBestus · Nov 24, 2016

I am also always amazed by people who believe the hand washing ordinances is from Torah. Its not.

MacBestus · Nov 24, 2016

Really.... Are you still trying to find a way to make the law of our Creator cumbersome, silly, or impossible to follow? Do you feel you might be smarter than He? "The verse said :you shall have a place outside the camp." designated by the leaders. If the leaders have set up a place that is where you are to go. It will not be in the mess if its a dug latrine and it will be ocf to a side or seperated by distance buffers in large camps. If not you are to go away from camp with a shovel. Every boy scout knows this. What are you trying to say?

MacBestus · Nov 24, 2016

Dan_473 said:

One half of the Golden Rule. A distillation of the ten Commandments by Messiah. The Commandments themselves a distillation of the law. This is exactly what Peter was getting at with this verse:
14 So then, beloved ones, looking forward to this, do your utmost to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15 and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Sha’ul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures.
17 You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the delusion of the lawless,
18 but grow in the favour and knowledge of our Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that abides. Amĕn.
Paul stated over and over that he kept the law and that we should as well.
But since you REALLY want to put words into his mouth, as Peter warned a certain kind of person might, lets go over his head and see what Messiah had to say about it. Let's look a Matthew 5.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Ok, we have all heard this verse. And we have heard it from those who believe those Messiah Saved through his Grace so we should keep Torah. As well as those who say the law was up to Messiah then it goes away till he comes back, since the bible makes it plain we will follow it in the millennium. So in order to understand it we will look at it closer and then read on so it is not taken out of context.
Let us look at the word the King Jimmy translates as fulfill.
“G4137
Original: πληρόω
Transliteration: plēroō
Phonetic: play-ro'-o
Thayer Definition:
to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
I abound, I am liberally supplied
That’s Thayer…. What about Strongs?
Origin: from G4134
TDNT entry: 10:46,9
Part(s) of speech: Verb
Strong's Definition: From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: X after, (be), fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

Okay. Seems like he is going to make the law MORE complete not less valid. So let us read the verse in context with the verses that follow now that we have a better understanding of the Greek word from the two most respected witnesses in theology. Strong and Thayer.
13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.note
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Oh dear teachers of lawlessness. The Master not only said he came to fill is up with the law. That we could be super righteous. He also TOUGHENED the law. So we have removed Romans as teaching lawlessness and in all actuality using Peter we have removed ALL of Pauls writings. So where do you get that the law is no longer the measure of sin? Sin we are supposed to go all out to remove from our lives to be a fitting dwelling place for His Spirit.
I do not see where you get what Peter calls the delusion of lawlessness…
Notice Messiah does not say keep the law to be saved… Salvation is of Grace. But he does say those who do not keep His law and teach others this lie will not be well respected in His kingdom.
Salvation is by Grace and Reward by Merit. This is from the Master Himself.

MacBestus · Nov 24, 2016

Desertsrose said:

As Solomon said in Proverbs A wise man welcomes reproach. I should not generalise such broad terms. Thank you sister for your correction.

It is my understanding that there have always been people who believed this way and they have had many names through the years. I must say I do not know which term was in use first. HRM has been in use for at least 30 odd years as has Messianic Judiasm.

All beliebers worshipped this way until a few centuries after Messiah walked here. They have been called many things since.

probably the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots

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