Prophecy, it’s not what most think.

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Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,530
702
113
#1
Prophecy, it’s not what most think.

People assume prophecy is to foretell the future. A means to present history in advance. But this is not what Jesus says. Prophecy is so we can look back in history and see God’s hand in bringing an obscure event to pass.

Jesus said; “I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe” (John 14:29). And again, “From henceforth I tell you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he” (John 13:19)

Most of the prophecies about the coming of Christ were so vague, we could never base a detailed forecast on them until after fulfilled. John the Baptist stands out having said to be Elijah. Jesus stands out when said to be the Temple of God. Indeed, most today missed the Kingdom of God in the times of the Roman Empire thinking it would be physical instead of spiritual. And agree with the Pharisees that it is yet future and physical.

Robert Whitelaw says: When we analyze all these cases [of fulfilled prophecies], we find that the fulfillments may be classified into five categories as follows:

(a) Natural events, fulfilled as described by the writer; thirteen cases.

(b) Natural events, but not fulfilled exactly as described or foreseen; eleven cases.

(c) Fulfilled by events both natural and spiritual, but never exactly as described or likely foreseen: sixteen cases.

(d) Fulfilled by events in the spiritual realm only, but not as described or likely foreseen: forty-three cases.

(e) Fulfillments cited in the N. T. as the general tenor of ‘, what the prophets have said”, and always fulfilled by events in the spiritual realm: eleven cases.

Robert Whitelaw. THE GOSPEL MILLENNIUM and Obedience to Scripture.

So based on this it is hard to trust what we think a prophetic passage says until after God makes it clear by fulfilling it.

E.J. Young says; Now, it is contrary to the nature and genius of prophecy to reveal the future as detailed history. In all prophecy there is an element of obscurity and perhaps even of ambiguity. The Lord had distinctly said that He would speak to the prophets in a manner less clear and direct than that in which He would speak to Moses His Servant (Num. 12:1–8). With the prophets He would speak in dreams and visions and—so it would seem—in dark and enigmatic sayings. In revelations which were given as visions, therefore, we should expect an abundance of imagery and symbolism. There are many instances of such revelation in the prophetical books (e. g., Isa. 24–27; Joel 3:9–17; Zech. 14; Ps. 2; Amos 7–9).

Young, E. J. (1980). The Prophecy of Daniel: A Commentary (p. 21). Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.

Irenaeus of Lyons: “It is … more certain, and less hazardous to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for names that may present themselves.”
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
30,768
9,034
113
65
Florida
#3
I would not make a blanket assumption that people don't understand prophecy. Remember, you are a people too. Of course, prophesy are words of God foretelling future events. Despite the blanket assumption it is probably the correct one in regards to what people think.

Yes, some prophecies from scripture have already been fulfilled but the particular prophecies were given before being fulfilled otherwise it would not be prophecy. Additionally, in order to qualify as a prophecy the fulfillment has to be 100% accurate.

Yes, there are a lot of vague prophecies that can only be readily understood after they have been fulfilled. Even this would require wisdom and discernment from God to ascertain the truth.
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,530
702
113
#4
I would not make a blanket assumption that people don't understand prophecy. Remember, you are a people too. Of course, prophesy are words of God foretelling future events. Despite the blanket assumption it is probably the correct one in regards to what people think.

Yes, some prophecies from scripture have already been fulfilled but the particular prophecies were given before being fulfilled otherwise it would not be prophecy. Additionally, in order to qualify as a prophecy the fulfillment has to be 100% accurate.

Yes, there are a lot of vague prophecies that can only be readily understood after they have been fulfilled. Even this would require wisdom and discernment from God to ascertain the truth.
If you believe in a physical millennium, it proves you do not understand prophecy.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
13,606
7,380
113
#5
Prophecy, it’s not what most think.

People assume prophecy is to foretell the future. A means to present history in advance. But this is not what Jesus says. Prophecy is so we can look back in history and see God’s hand in bringing an obscure event to pass.

Jesus said; “I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe” (John 14:29). And again, “From henceforth I tell you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he” (John 13:19)
I don't see how Jesus' words describe something other than foretelling the future. His words address the purpose but not the nature of prophecy.
 

Diakonos

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
631
190
43
26
Anacortes, WA
#6
If you believe in a physical millennium, it proves you do not understand prophecy.
I called you out on something 2 hours before you started this forum. Instead of answering my question, you retreated to start another forum here.

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Please tell us where Scriptures supports the claim that

"Jesus teaches that prophecy cannot be understood until after fulfillment".
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,141
758
113
#7
Prophecy, it’s not what most think.

People assume prophecy is to foretell the future. A means to present history in advance. But this is not what Jesus says. Prophecy is so we can look back in history and see God’s hand in bringing an obscure event to pass.

Jesus said; “I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe” (John 14:29). And again, “From henceforth I tell you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he” (John 13:19)

Most of the prophecies about the coming of Christ were so vague, we could never base a detailed forecast on them until after fulfilled. John the Baptist stands out having said to be Elijah. Jesus stands out when said to be the Temple of God. Indeed, most today missed the Kingdom of God in the times of the Roman Empire thinking it would be physical instead of spiritual. And agree with the Pharisees that it is yet future and physical.

Robert Whitelaw says: When we analyze all these cases [of fulfilled prophecies], we find that the fulfillments may be classified into five categories as follows:

(a) Natural events, fulfilled as described by the writer; thirteen cases.

(b) Natural events, but not fulfilled exactly as described or foreseen; eleven cases.

(c) Fulfilled by events both natural and spiritual, but never exactly as described or likely foreseen: sixteen cases.

(d) Fulfilled by events in the spiritual realm only, but not as described or likely foreseen: forty-three cases.

(e) Fulfillments cited in the N. T. as the general tenor of ‘, what the prophets have said”, and always fulfilled by events in the spiritual realm: eleven cases.

Robert Whitelaw. THE GOSPEL MILLENNIUM and Obedience to Scripture.

So based on this it is hard to trust what we think a prophetic passage says until after God makes it clear by fulfilling it.

E.J. Young says; Now, it is contrary to the nature and genius of prophecy to reveal the future as detailed history. In all prophecy there is an element of obscurity and perhaps even of ambiguity. The Lord had distinctly said that He would speak to the prophets in a manner less clear and direct than that in which He would speak to Moses His Servant (Num. 12:1–8). With the prophets He would speak in dreams and visions and—so it would seem—in dark and enigmatic sayings. In revelations which were given as visions, therefore, we should expect an abundance of imagery and symbolism. There are many instances of such revelation in the prophetical books (e. g., Isa. 24–27; Joel 3:9–17; Zech. 14; Ps. 2; Amos 7–9).

Young, E. J. (1980). The Prophecy of Daniel: A Commentary (p. 21). Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.

Irenaeus of Lyons: “It is … more certain, and less hazardous to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for names that may present themselves.”
Interesting that you quote these men but fail to quote Paul from the "God-breathed" New Testament:

I Corinthians 2:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.


So you got part of it right - the natural man without the Spirit cannot rightly understand the Word. But the Spirit within the believer reveals these truths to the believer.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,141
758
113
#8
If you believe in a physical millennium, it proves you do not understand prophecy.
So are you saying that if you believe in a "symbolic" millenium, then you do understand prophecy?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
10,100
1,414
113
#9
So are you saying that if you believe in a "symbolic" millenium, then you do understand prophecy?
Yes that’s what he’s saying, a thousand year reign of Christ does not mean a literal thousand years...🤦‍♂️

Also, David’s throne is not literal but spiritual.
 

Diakonos

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
631
190
43
26
Anacortes, WA
#10
Jesus said; “I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe” (John 14:29)
This whole post is built on the false assumption that the word "it" refers to all prophecy. Jesus was talking about His departure not all utterances from God.
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,530
702
113
#11
So are you saying that if you believe in a "symbolic" millenium, then you do understand prophecy?
Jesus says you must be born again to see the kingdom. The Pharisees could not see it and remain looking for a Physical kingdom in the future. Their 1000 year Millennium. The born again saw the kingdom when it arrived in Jesus' time of the Roman Empire. And they see it today. Some are deceived and cannot see it until they make a clean break with millennialism and begin a fresh study of the topic.
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,530
702
113
#12
Interesting that you quote these men but fail to quote Paul from the "God-breathed" New Testament:

I Corinthians 2:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.


So you got part of it right - the natural man without the Spirit cannot rightly understand the Word. But the Spirit within the believer reveals these truths to the believer.
I have all the scriptures that prove his claims. They are extensive.
 

Diakonos

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
631
190
43
26
Anacortes, WA
#13
Yes that’s what he’s saying, a thousand year reign of Christ does not mean a literal thousand years...🤦‍♂️
Also, David’s throne is not literal but spiritual.
If you believe in a physical millennium, it proves you do not understand prophecy.
So do you guys believe in a spiritual earth?
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,530
702
113
#14
So do you guys believe in a spiritual earth?
The kingdom is spiritual. Only the born again can see it. If you cannot see it you need to try. It could be that you've been rolled by false teachers.
 

Diakonos

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
631
190
43
26
Anacortes, WA
#15
The kingdom is spiritual. Only the born again can see it. If you cannot see it you need to try. It could be that you've been rolled by false teachers.
You are an expert at neglecting questions.

Is that a "no"?
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,141
758
113
#16
I have all the scriptures that prove his claims. They are extensive.
Yes, I agree. The entire Bible supports and agrees with what Paul writes. ;)
 

Truth7t7

Active member
May 19, 2020
145
27
28
#17
Jesus says you must be born again to see the kingdom. The Pharisees could not see it and remain looking for a Physical kingdom in the future. Their 1000 year Millennium. The born again saw the kingdom when it arrived in Jesus' time of the Roman Empire. And they see it today. Some are deceived and cannot see it until they make a clean break with millennialism and begin a fresh study of the topic.
Dave I fully agree there will be no future Millennial kingdom on this earth, yes thisi is a "Jewish" fable of the "Golden Age"

No Physical Kingdom or Human's on This Earth, are seen in Revelation 20:1-6 Below As Many Claim.

That seen below, is in the Lords "Spiritual Realm" 100%

Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ,100% Spiritual Realm!

Revelation 20:1-6 (AKJV)
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
10,100
1,414
113
#18
So do you guys believe in a spiritual earth?
You guys? Don't you link me with what he believes. I probably believe as the same as you. My post was concerning what Dave-L believes. I've done the dance with him...too often. He rarely takes the bible literally.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
10,100
1,414
113
#19
Jesus says you must be born again to see the kingdom.
Yes, the kingdom of God because it is spiritual. The kingdom of heaven, however, is physical. Both were at hand during the time of Christ. Only the spiritual is at hand at the present, but the physical kingdom will be restored to Israel in the Millennium.
 

Diakonos

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
631
190
43
26
Anacortes, WA
#20
You guys? Don't you link me with what he believes. I probably believe as the same as you. My post was concerning what Dave-L believes. I've done the dance with him...too often. He rarely takes the bible literally.
Sorry for the confusion. I assumed you were an Amillenialist too