Propitiation – The Sacrifice that Atoned

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GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

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#82
Sep 28, 2015
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#82
Blackpowderduelist said:
Let me see if I can communicate via an analogy. It's like someone going into a prison and unlocking all the cells and leaving the front gate open, and then warning that the prison will be destroyed in a few days. Only those who leave are actually saved even though salvation was there for everyone.
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wrong analogy..... the holder of the keys made some prison door to remain locked.....while other were opened and the prisoners ordered to come out and be free
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

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#83
Sep 28, 2015
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#83
Blain said:
Ok so you say it was only for believers but who were we before we came to Christ? salfation is called a gift in scripture for a reason a gift is given but one is not forced to take it we have accept his gift in order to be saved and be believers it is a gift offered to all but not all take the gift.
As for what you quoted about Jesus when he said this he had not yet died and risen from the dead and thus the new covanent had not yet been established so when he said this he was talking to the Jews at that time because leaven bread was something they could relate to and understand

And as for trusting translators I cannot fully agree some of the translations show clear differences in the usage of words and their meaning as well as the context, it is important to find the truth of the matter for yourself and also the interesting thing about the hebrew language is that the depth of each word it's meaning underlined message even just the contexted of how it used is so deeply profound this is why I mentioned it because the word you used in our language means one thing and is used in a certain way but according to the original language in which the word was translated from it means something else and is used differently

As for why I mentioned the Catholics you did say you were a tulip correct?
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Tulips are about as far from catholocims as the earth from Mars. I doubt if you know what TULIP is about.
You don't think a little leaven spoils the whole? Jesus also said that He is "the way, the truth and the life" ....was that meant only for the Jews? Apostasy abounds in every generation.

Wrong about translations. Translated bibles go through committees of bible scholars for YEARS before they are published. It is the paraphrases that are the opinion of the man who paraphases them.

I think I answered all your questions.
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

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#85
Sep 28, 2015
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#85
Blain said:
I don't know why you keep going to universal salvation no one has said anything of the sort salvation is a gift an opportunity for all it is a choice given freely but not all will take it however conrtast to what your saying limiting salvation to only a certain people then I would rather universal salvation be a thing. I have personally seen and been to hell I would rather I take someone elses place for a time than for anyone to have experience what I saw there

Jesus did something so amazing and so gracious in offering his own life so that all may have a chance to be saved from that place if you saw what I saw then you might not be so quick to promote limited salvation.
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if you say that Christ died for the sins of everyone (propitiation) then everyone is saved....and this is what you are saying
I say what Jesus said....I lay down MY life for MY sheep, you are not of My sheep. (again, separation of whom He died for)
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

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#86
Sep 28, 2015
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#86
stepbystep said:
A big shame on you for being so insulting. I'm sure you weren't raised to act like that.
I cannot imagine being so arrogant as to tell another person you pity them because they don't believe whatever your doctrines are, inferring they are not saved.......as you judged me.

Just to be clear. Above are two comments from you. The first is the basic principal of Calvinism. The second is an overreaction to my comment.

I was not judging you, I was commenting on the post you published. I also made it quite clear that I DO NOT judge anyone who believes in Calvin's ideology, I just feel sad for them. That is no where near saying someone IS NOT saved!

The idea that Jesus did not die for the sins OF ALL MANKIND goes against His Gospel completely I believe. It also goes against many Scriptures that say He did shed His blood for ALL MANKIND.

The caveat is as is stated in John 3:16. "Whosoever believeth....." The shed blood of Jesus is available to ALL, and those who repent, and turn to God and ask for forgiveness will have His blood applied to their lives and will be cleansed of their sins. Saved. The key is that His blood is AVAILABLE TO ALL, thus He died FOR ALL.

If you were insulted, sorry about that, but you appear to be knowledgeable in Scripture, and, being so, you should know that the idea posed in your 1st comment is the basis for Calvin's ideology. This one:

Understanding of this ONE WORD forever refutes the false teaching that Christ died for every single person. That Christ died for all men is true, but the “all men” He died for were all believers. All of that group.

I could have easily attacked you, and chastised you for "insulting" me and calling me a "false teacher" for that comment, since I do not agree with it, but I did not. Nor did accuse you of not being saved.

Maybe there is "shame" to go around?
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You obviously are so into your own ego you don't recognize your own insults to me. OR scripture.
Propitiation is not a 'calvinist' idea......it is in the bible several times as I quoted a few scriptures. It means exactly what I wrote
If you took personally what I said about false teachers or any of the apostates that is NOT a me problem, it is a YOU problem.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#87
Aug 28, 2012
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#87
GraceAndTruth said:
Tulips are about as far from catholocims as the earth from Mars. I doubt if you know what TULIP is about.
You don't think a little leaven spoils the whole? Jesus also said that He is "the way, the truth and the life" ....was that meant only for the Jews? Apostasy abounds in every generation.

Wrong about translations. Translated bibles go through committees of bible scholars for YEARS before they are published. It is the paraphrases that are the opinion of the man who paraphases them.

I think I answered all your questions.
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I aplologize I got catholism mixed up with what I believe is actually calvinist or some branch of it and as for leaven lets say that since there will always be corruption that somehow it would corrupt the wholre unleveaned bread is to represent Jesus body also known as the church this was again before the new covenant using terms that were spoken to the jews at that particular time is not proper understanding of how the scriptures are read. We are to rightly divide the word and there are several places in the new testament that were for the Jews in particular you have know who he was speaking to at that time or else you misunderstand what is being said. Yes Jesus is the way truth and the light but again you have to be able to discern what is meant for the jews and what is meant for the church


Also just because bible scholars helped with the translations does not mean they are all to be accepted as a writer I have learned the importance of words how they are used their meanings and the context of when and how they are used this is why I do not trust all translations you are free to your opinion but I put great importance on words in order to better understand the scriptures
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#88
#88
GraceAndTruth said:
wrong analogy..... the holder of the keys made some prison door to remain locked.....while other were opened and the prisoners ordered to come out and be free
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Not so.
All unlocked, all warned, some preferred their cell because the sin, the security, the comfort, and rejected the evidence that the jailer provided. Others believed the jailer and was convinced and followed the jailer out Those others remained and were destroyed along with the prison.
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

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#89
Sep 28, 2015
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#89
Blain said:
I aplologize I got catholism mixed up with what I believe is actually calvinist or some branch of it and as for leaven lets say that since there will always be corruption that somehow it would corrupt the wholre unleveaned bread is to represent Jesus body also known as the church this was again before the new covenant using terms that were spoken to the jews at that particular time is not proper understanding of how the scriptures are read. We are to rightly divide the word and there are several places in the new testament that were for the Jews in particular you have know who he was speaking to at that time or else you misunderstand what is being said. Yes Jesus is the way truth and the light but again you have to be able to discern what is meant for the jews and what is meant for the church


Also just because bible scholars helped with the translations does not mean they are all to be accepted as a writer I have learned the importance of words how they are used their meanings and the context of when and how they are used this is why I do not trust all translations you are free to your opinion but I put great importance on words in order to better understand the scriptures
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If you have no bible to rely on then I guess you will just have to muddle along as best you can.
However, with no reliable bible......as you stated they are so untrustworthy......why would you base an opinion on such a book?
 
Blain

Blain

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#90
Aug 28, 2012
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#90
GraceAndTruth said:
if you say that Christ died for the sins of everyone (propitiation) then everyone is saved....and this is what you are saying
I say what Jesus said....I lay down MY life for MY sheep, you are not of My sheep. (again, separation of whom He died for)
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No what I clearly said was that he died for all but the gift of salvation is not forced on us we have to accept the gift
And again as I said who was he talking to when he said you are not my sheep and what covenant was established at that time?
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

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Sep 28, 2015
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#91
Blackpowderduelist said:
Not so.
All unlocked, all warned, some preferred their cell because the sin, the security, the comfort, and rejected the evidence that the jailer provided. Others believed the jailer and was convinced and followed the jailer out Those others remained and were destroyed along with the prison.
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who is the jailor?
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

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Sep 28, 2015
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#92
Blain said:
No what I clearly said was that he died for all but the gift of salvation is not forced on us we have to accept the gift
And again as I said who was he talking to when he said you are not my sheep and what covenant was established at that time?
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So now your are saying that everything Jesus said was to the Jews only.
Before one can accept a gift it must first be offered.
 
Blain

Blain

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#93
Aug 28, 2012
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#93
GraceAndTruth said:
If you have no bible to rely on then I guess you will just have to muddle along as best you can.
However, with no reliable bible......as you stated they are so untrustworthy......why would you base an opinion on such a book?
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I would appreciate it if you wouldn't put words in my mouth I never said I didn't have a reliable bible I just don't trust certain translations some words can seem to mean the same thing but they don't mean quite the same thing I prefer to be precise in reading and understanding the scriptures words can be similar but not quite the same thing
I don't judge anyone for their preference in translation but as I pointed out the word you used in your first post has a different meaning and usage than what was intended for it
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

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Sep 28, 2015
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#95
Blain said:
I would appreciate it if you wouldn't put words in my mouth I never said I didn't have a reliable bible I just don't trust certain translations some words can seem to mean the same thing but they don't mean quite the same thing I prefer to be precise in reading and understanding the scriptures words can be similar but not quite the same thing
I don't judge anyone for their preference in translation but as I pointed out the word you used in your first post has a different meaning and usage than what was intended for it
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Then you better learn Greek.....and not just any Greek....KOINE Greek
 
Blain

Blain

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#96
Aug 28, 2012
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#96
GraceAndTruth said:
So now your are saying that everything Jesus said was to the Jews only.
Before one can accept a gift it must first be offered.
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No what I am saying is that we have to understand what is meant for the jews specifically and what was meant for the church this requires understanding and discernment but once you are able to do so the messages in scripture make much more sense.
And also the gift was offered to all when Jesus shed his blood it is our choice to accept it or not
 
Blain

Blain

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#98
Aug 28, 2012
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#98
GraceAndTruth said:
Then you better learn Greek.....and not just any Greek....KOINE Greek
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I have a hard enough time learning what little hebrew I do know I have a learning disability and if I take in to much information my brain shuts down Ihave to learn things slow and steady so I want to tackle hebrew before I get into another language
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

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#99
Sep 28, 2015
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#99
Blain said:
I have a hard enough time learning what little hebrew I do know I have a learning disability and if I take in to much information my brain shuts down Ihave to learn things slow and steady so I want to tackle hebrew before I get into another language
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What the main point here IS.........that the propitiation was not made for everyone.
Old or new covenant, the blood of the mercy seat was for those who offered it for their sin.......not everyone in Israel offered their animal, so those had no access to mercy....likewise the blood of Christ is not shed in vain for those who are unsaved.
 
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