Propitiation – The Sacrifice that Atoned

[Blain]

Salvation, according to Strong's means=deliverance. There is an eternal deliverance, and there are many deliverances that the regenerated people receive this side of heaven, as we sojourn here on earth. Failure to distinguish between the two tends to make people think that they have a choice to accept, or reject eternal deliverance. If it has to be accepted, it is not my God's grace.

Deliverence also means to be rescued the regenerated people have this because they were saved from their destiny of hell because of their life of sin. It is not by God;s grace we accept his gift your right about that it is by his grace it is given but we still have to accept it.

Look at all throughout the bible God always gave humanity a choice to obey him or not, with adam and eve he told them what would happen if they ate from the fruit of the tree but he never forced them not to he gave them a choice to not it even when they ate from the fruit God still left humanity free will and even now he offers a gift to humanity but one has to make the choice to accept it or not, if it was all decided beforehand then it is not a gift at all and his grace is limited Christs sacrifice was limited the power of his blood and his love is limited

The issue I have with people who believe that not all can recieve the gift of salvation and that a select people only were predestined to be saved is that they by doing so are saying that the sacrifice of God's one and only son was not good enough for the whole world only those who before they were even born were to be saved while others who by no choice of their own and though they did nothing wrong before they took their first breath in this life were already destined for eternal damnation

Honestly I just don't understand the logic behind this kind of thinking this certainly isn't the loving father I have come to know

 

[Chester]

Look at the context again. The limit is set from other verses in the context in John 3:
15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. (limited to everyone WHO BELIEVES for not all will)

27 John replied, “A person can receive not even one thing unless it has been given to him from heaven (limted to those the Father grants belief to) Just the same as when Jesus said "No ONE CAN come to me unless the FATHER grants it to him" John 6:44 Since the word 'can' impllies ability the verse could just as well be rendered "no one is able to come ....'

This limits the ability to a certain group.......not everyone in the world, therefor kosmos has the narrower sense.

Verses also deal with those who do not believe, another separation limiting to a certain group

John 3:16 is a beautiful comfort verse for His beloved....but it does not stand alone

It seems to me that there is a man called Nicodemus who was not a believer at this time who is very clearly in the context. He is clearly part of the "whosoever" who can choose to believe. He is also very clearly a part of the "world" referred to in John 3:16.

Of course only a certain group will believe in Christ - and it will only be those who the Father "draws" (6:44) - but that does not mean that God does not love those who do not choose to believe. John could have chosen other words in 3:16 if he was wanting to clearly specify that only "believers" are loved by God. He could have just written: "For God so loved those who believe in Him, . . . "

But you are allowed your opinion - but Scripture is a whole lot easier to read and appropriate for life if you do not come to verses with preconceived doctrinal beliefs. . . my opinion

 

[GraceAndTruth]

It seems to me that there is a man called Nicodemus who was not a believer at this time who is very clearly in the context. He is clearly part of the "whosoever" who can choose to believe. He is also very clearly a part of the "world" referred to in John 3:16.

Of course only a certain group will believe in Christ - and it will only be those who the Father "draws" (6:44) - but that does not mean that God does not love those who do not choose to believe. John could have chosen other words in 3:16 if he was wanting to clearly specify that only "believers" are loved by God. He could have just written: "For God so loved those who believe in Him, . . . "

But you are allowed your opinion - but Scripture is a whole lot easier to read and appropriate for life if you do not come to verses with preconceived doctrinal beliefs. . . my opinion

I'll only address ONE of your errors - Nicodemus did believe that Jesus was of God, he just did not understand what being born again meant and asked for clairification. Which WE ALL now know.

 

[Grandpa]

I think it is the way one interprets it

if atonement if offered to all it is unlimited

if it is only applied to the believers, you could say it is limited yet it is still offered to all.

so if your looking at it from an end result, I guess you could say it is limited

if you are looking at it fro its scope, it would be unlimited,

as for the sin of unbelief, since it is the HS’s job to reveal God to us, to convict us, and teach us as drawing us to God, to die in unbelief is to blaspheme Or disagree or dissent from the Hs, This is the unpardonable sin whch Christ did not die for,

I agreed with most of what you say here.

I don't think I can agree that the Blood of Jesus is not sufficient for certain sins.

The Atonement is limited to believers, period. Not because unbelievers have greater sins than believers. But because they will not come to Christ and receive the Blessings that He Gives.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agreed with most of what you say here.

I don't think I can agree that the Blood of Jesus is not sufficient for certain sins.

The Atonement is limited to believers, period. Not because unbelievers have greater sins than believers. But because they will not come to Christ and receive the Blessings that He Gives.

I never said it was not sufficient for certain sins, it paid the price for all of them

jesus said all manner of sin and blasphemy WILL be forgiven men, but one, the one sin is the sin of unbelief.

it says he who does not believe is condemned, not he who sins, all have sinned and fall short, if Christ did not die for all sins, no one could be saved

 

[Blade]

Hmm understanding of this one word...ok. Yet you didn't do that at all. Maybe how it was org written? Braking it down and then other verses that use that same word the same way? Just thinking off the top of my head here. Then not expaining other scriptures that point to Him dying for the worlds sin..what they don't exist?. Then knowing the sweet holy Spirit is not convicting a group but the world of sin. The sin they do not believe in Jesus Christ as lord.

And then to leave out the OT.. did not Christ tell them if you believed Moses you would believe me for he wrote of me. Its all over the OT. It has been Gods plan to always save the world.

Seems little things add up here also.. who so ever believes? These signs shall follow them that believe. Or everyone that calls on the name of the lord shall be saved. Or Joel 2:32 "and it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered; " Now I read 15 different versions of Joel 2 32 say "shall be saved".

Well stop for now. Christ shows a vision to a Muslim.. a man that never knew about Christ.. shows him a vision of all these people.. all lost. Christ asks him.. how easy was it for me to forgive you. The man says like drinking water. Christ says.. as easy as I forgave you I will them.. who will tell them.

The 12/120/3000 went out into the world. So what one or some group thinks.. does not some how change the truth. He died already and rose praise GOD glory to Jesus for the sin of the world. And we now tell ALL in the world the GOOD NEWS! Not our personal belief

 

[GraceAndTruth]

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Deliverence also means to be rescued the regenerated people have this because they were saved from their destiny of hell because of their life of sin. It is not by God;s grace we accept his gift your right about that it is by his grace it is given but we still have to accept it.

Look at all throughout the bible God always gave humanity a choice to obey him or not, with adam and eve he told them what would happen if they ate from the fruit of the tree but he never forced them not to he gave them a choice to not it even when they ate from the fruit God still left humanity free will and even now he offers a gift to humanity but one has to make the choice to accept it or not, if it was all decided beforehand then it is not a gift at all and his grace is limited Christs sacrifice was limited the power of his blood and his love is limited

The issue I have with people who believe that not all can recieve the gift of salvation and that a select people only were predestined to be saved is that they by doing so are saying that the sacrifice of God's one and only son was not good enough for the whole world only those who before they were even born were to be saved while others who by no choice of their own and though they did nothing wrong before they took their first breath in this life were already destined for eternal damnation

Honestly I just don't understand the logic behind this kind of thinking this certainly isn't the loving father I have come to know

God can do whatever He wants to do. Who are you to talk back to God? His ways are not our ways.
Don't you wonder if Adam really had a choice. Without the fall, there would be no need for a savior. But Peter said in Acts that the cross was predestined.
Acts 2:23 delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God

 

[Nehemiah6]

Don't you wonder if Adam really had a choice. Without the fall, there would be no need for a savior. But Peter said in Acts that the cross was predestined. Acts 2:23 delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God

Yes, the crucifixion of Christ was predetermined based upon God's foreknowledge. That does not automatically mean that Adam had no choice, and that God *programmed* him to disobey God. That would be PREPOSTEROUS.

Adam and Eve had absolutely no reason to disobey God. They literally lived in Paradise, and had everything that their hearts could desire. They were also warned by God, but they disregarded His warning. Which means that they loved themselves more than they loved God.

God knew that they would sin even before He created them. Yet He gave mankind and angels free will. Which means that there are severe consequences for making the wrong choices. And we know from Genesis 3 how severe those consequences were.

All human beings have had free will since the Fall, and all must either choose to obey the Gospel or disobey it. The Calvinistic idea of Total Depravity is false and unscriptural, since God expects the unsaved to hear and understand the Gospel, and respond to it.

 

[Grandpa]

I never said it was not sufficient for certain sins, it paid the price for all of them

jesus said all manner of sin and blasphemy WILL be forgiven men, but one, the one sin is the sin of unbelief.

it says he who does not believe is condemned, not he who sins, all have sinned and fall short, if Christ did not die for all sins, no one could be saved

Matthew 12:31-32
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit isn't unbelief.

Atheists get saved from time to time, don't they? How could they if the sin of unbelief is unforgivable?

There is a list of famous atheists that converted to Christianity if you want me to provide one.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Matthew 12:31-32
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit isn't unbelief.

Atheists get saved from time to time, don't they? How could they if the sin of unbelief is unforgivable?

There is a list of famous atheists that converted to Christianity if you want me to provide one.

I disagree bro. When you do not believe you dissent from the message the HS came to give you basically call him a liar
unbelief is a sin against God. Mire importantly it is blaspheming the HS because it in essence attributes the gospel truth he came to share to some other gospel or no gospel at all

 

[Chester]

I'll only address ONE of your errors - Nicodemus did believe that Jesus was of God, he just did not understand what being born again meant and asked for clairification. Which WE ALL now know.

I am not sure who your "we" is here - but there are many many among us who do not understand what it means to be born again.

For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life

An invitation open to all who will come and believe - come, believe, and have a new birth in Christ Jesus!

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Yes, the crucifixion of Christ was predetermined based upon God's foreknowledge. That does not automatically mean that Adam had no choice, and that God *programmed* him to disobey God. That would be PREPOSTEROUS.

Adam and Eve had absolutely no reason to disobey God. They literally lived in Paradise, and had everything that their hearts could desire. They were also warned by God, but they disregarded His warning. Which means that they loved themselves more than they loved God.

God knew that they would sin even before He created them. Yet He gave mankind and angels free will. Which means that there are severe consequences for making the wrong choices. And we know from Genesis 3 how severe those consequences were.

All human beings have had free will since the Fall, and all must either choose to obey the Gospel or disobey it. The Calvinistic idea of Total Depravity is false and unscriptural, since God expects the unsaved to hear and understand the Gospel, and respond to it.

circular reasoning.....this is what happens when finite minds try to understand the infinite and so make God like themselves serving their own ego.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I am not sure who your "we" is here - but there are many many among us who do not understand what it means to be born again.

For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life

An invitation open to all who will come and believe - come, believe, and have a new birth in Christ Jesus!

go study

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I am not sure who your "we" is here - but there are many many among us who do not understand what it means to be born again.

For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life

An invitation open to all who will come and believe - come, believe, and have a new birth in Christ Jesus!

I see no invitation in John 3:16. Just a statement of fact.

To be born again is to be born spiritually. Born once -physically, Born twice physically and spiritually.
So being born again is to make alive that which was DEAD (the spirits of all men) who are already alive physically.
They are dead because the sin of Adam is imputed to ALL men and that sin brought physical and spiritual death to ALL. Romans 5:12-19
Dead people are never invited to anything.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see no invitation in John 3:16. Just a statement of fact.

To be born again is to be born spiritually. Born once -physically, Born twice physically and spiritually.
So being born again is to make alive that which was DEAD (the spirits of all men) who are already alive physically.
They are dead because the sin of Adam is imputed to ALL men and that sin brought physical and spiritual death to ALL. Romans 5:12-19
Dead people are never invited to anything.

It is a statement of fact

whoever believes will be born again.
it does not say whoever is born again (has eternal life) will believe

next...

 

[Nehemiah6]

circular reasoning.....this is what happens when finite minds try to understand the infinite and so make God like themselves serving their own ego.

This is rich since it is Calvinists who generally serve their own egos. I have given you a biblical basis for the Fall, as well as God's predetermination of the crucifixion of Christ from "before the foundation of the world".

So if you go on believing as you do, you will have to conclude that God sent Satan to deceive Eve, and have the first pair disobey God. Do you see the absurdity of that?

 

[Blain]

God can do whatever He wants to do. Who are you to talk back to God? His ways are not our ways.
Don't you wonder if Adam really had a choice. Without the fall, there would be no need for a savior. But Peter said in Acts that the cross was predestined.
Acts 2:23 delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God

Oh I am not talking back to God I just know how he works and what his nature is, there is a reason I always say that knowing and posting scripture alone does no good if you don't also take into account who he is. You have to learn his nature his traits his ways of seeing thinking and ways of being otherwise you will not fully understand the scriptures.

And I could ask you a similar question who are you to lessen Christs sacrifice?

 

[Blain]

go study

Actually I think it is you who needs to study, you have been shown countless verses evidence and been given wise council by people in this thread but you have no ability to listen and learn and continue to fail in proving your belief not only that but you don't even use the scriptures as they are intended to be read

 

[GraceAndTruth]

This is rich since it is Calvinists who generally serve their own egos. I have given you a biblical basis for the Fall, as well as God's predetermination of the crucifixion of Christ from "before the foundation of the world".

So if you go on believing as you do, you will have to conclude that God sent Satan to deceive Eve, and have the first pair disobey God. Do you see the absurdity of that?

Where do you think the "temptor" came from...........did God not create everything?