PROVING THE TRINITY IS A BIBLICAL DOCTRINE

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bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,577
273
83
#1
I will first present the following "syllogism" and then explain the syllogism as it realtes to the Trinity. What is a "syllogism?" A syllogism in logic is a form of reasoning in which a conclusion is drawn from two given premises, one major presmise and one minor premise.

IF the Bible teaches that there is one God

and

IF in the Bible The Father is identified as God

and

IF in the Bible His Son is identified as God

and

IF in the Bible their Spirit is identified as God

THEN the doctrine of the Trinit is valid

OR

The Bible is wrong.

Now, the doctrine of the Trinity cannot be understood, argued or refuted by appealing to any single passage in the Bible. That is because it is a systematic theology in the proper sens of the term "theology"--the "study" or "knowledge of God, and is drawn from the WHOLE Bible, as any valid systematic theology should be. It does not rely on any single verse in the Bible for its representation and similarly, it cannot be refuted by any single verse in the Bible.

It is a doctrine that explains the nature OF THE ONE TRUE GOD described in the Bible, and is necessarily drawn from a HARMONIZATION of ALL of Scripture and therefore can only be understood from a view that accounts for ALL the Bible. Explaining the nature of the one God is the whole point of the doctrine of the Trinity. If you will examine the Bible thoroughly you should be able to quickly discover that there are threeand ONLY three "persons" who are identified as God by the following COMBINATION of literary means listed below.

The Bible identifies God by

1) His names
2) His titles
3) His unique attributes
4) His unique actions
50 His worship
Let me say I am not aware of any other literary, contextual means by which the Bible clearly identifies God. I could be wrong, but I think this list is comprehensive. So, let's go to #1 His names.

CALLED by the NAMES of God (YHWH and its variants) either directly or indirectly, usually both. How about "El Shaddai" as "God Almighty." Or "Elohim." "El Roi" the God Who sees.

2) His titles. Who's identified as (Lord, king, savior, redeemer etc.)

3) Attributed with the UNIQUE characteristis of God, (omnipresence, omnipotence, omnicient, eternality, etc.)

4) His unique actions. CREDITED with (creation, orgin of God's word, salvation of men etc.)

5) WORSHIPED and/or given the honor, reverence and position due to GOD ALONE.
I am NOT saying that the Father, Son and Holy Sirit are all consistently, equally and in every mention identified as God in very place they are represented in the Bible by any combination of these 5. NOR am I saying that each person of the Trinity is represented equally by ALL FIVE of these means of identifying God.

I am sayin that each person of the Trinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God as listed above. Now, there is one last thing I want to say regarding the doctrine of the Trinity. I DO NOT believe Trinitariansim is a "REQUIREMENT" for salvation. It is th "RESULT" of salvation, for you cannot know Jesus Christ and somehow miss the FACT that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and someho miss that He is God.

Here is what Romans 8:9-11 states, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. vs10, And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. vs11, But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#2
I will first present the following "syllogism" and then explain the syllogism as it realtes to the Trinity. What is a "syllogism?" A syllogism in logic is a form of reasoning in which a conclusion is drawn from two given premises, one major presmise and one minor premise.

IF the Bible teaches that there is one God

and

IF in the Bible The Father is identified as God

and

IF in the Bible His Son is identified as God

and

IF in the Bible their Spirit is identified as God

THEN the doctrine of the Trinit is valid

OR

The Bible is wrong.
IF the LORD teaches he only is begotten of the one eternal God

and

IF the Holy Ghost teaches he only has immortality

and

IF the Spirit of truth teaches he is the comforter

THEN it isn't any surprise that your tree produces two different fruits, one being either the trinity doctrine is right or a second one, that being the Bible is wrong. If I recall correctly, eating either would cause man to die....
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,787
3,529
113
#3
What's to prove, read Isaiah 9:6, then meditate on why inthe OT and in the NT we are taught, God is One...........nothing to prove, it is in plain words.......ÇGod is One, yet He will manifest Himself in whatever manner suits His purposes, and His purposes are perfect and good.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#4
Whatever you do to harmonize the scriptures, it must be logical yet the trinity doctrine falls short.

If the son is one person and one being by Himself, we can not have two other persons and still maintain that three of them are one being. Something is amiss- if the three of them are one being, then the son alone can not be a being which we know is falsehood. Either way you fall short; it is better to just say God is what He is without addition of falsehood to bolster a philosophy.

One indication against trinity is that earlier on believers who were against it were tortured and killed - this can not be from God.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
12,893
6,940
113
#5
One indication against trinity is that earlier on believers who were against it were tortured and killed - this can not be from God.
Evidence for this?

In the early centuries, there was persecution against "Christians" generally. The Moslems persecuted and killed Christians. The Catholics persecuted anyone who did not conform to their twisted version of Christianity. Early heretics were labeled as heretics by the Church, but there was no Church-sanctioned persecution of non-trinitarians to my knowledge.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#6
Evidence for this?

In the early centuries, there was persecution against "Christians" generally. The Moslems persecuted and killed Christians. The Catholics persecuted anyone who did not conform to their twisted version of Christianity. Early heretics were labeled as heretics by the Church, but there was no Church-sanctioned persecution of non-trinitarians to my knowledge.
The so called heretics were rounded up and burnt alive. Moslems were not around until the 7th century, by that time believers were already being tortured and killed by Jews & 'early christians'.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,265
426
83
#7
I will first present the following "syllogism" and then explain the syllogism as it realtes to the Trinity. What is a "syllogism?" A syllogism in logic is a form of reasoning in which a conclusion is drawn from two given premises, one major presmise and one minor premise.

IF the Bible teaches that there is one God

and

IF in the Bible The Father is identified as God

and

IF in the Bible His Son is identified as God

and

IF in the Bible their Spirit is identified as God

THEN the doctrine of the Trinit is valid

OR

The Bible is wrong.

Now, the doctrine of the Trinity cannot be understood, argued or refuted by appealing to any single passage in the Bible. That is because it is a systematic theology in the proper sens of the term "theology"--the "study" or "knowledge of God, and is drawn from the WHOLE Bible, as any valid systematic theology should be. It does not rely on any single verse in the Bible for its representation and similarly, it cannot be refuted by any single verse in the Bible.

It is a doctrine that explains the nature OF THE ONE TRUE GOD described in the Bible, and is necessarily drawn from a HARMONIZATION of ALL of Scripture and therefore can only be understood from a view that accounts for ALL the Bible. Explaining the nature of the one God is the whole point of the doctrine of the Trinity. If you will examine the Bible thoroughly you should be able to quickly discover that there are threeand ONLY three "persons" who are identified as God by the following COMBINATION of literary means listed below.

The Bible identifies God by

1) His names
2) His titles
3) His unique attributes
4) His unique actions
50 His worship
Let me say I am not aware of any other literary, contextual means by which the Bible clearly identifies God. I could be wrong, but I think this list is comprehensive. So, let's go to #1 His names.

CALLED by the NAMES of God (YHWH and its variants) either directly or indirectly, usually both. How about "El Shaddai" as "God Almighty." Or "Elohim." "El Roi" the God Who sees.

2) His titles. Who's identified as (Lord, king, savior, redeemer etc.)

3) Attributed with the UNIQUE characteristis of God, (omnipresence, omnipotence, omnicient, eternality, etc.)

4) His unique actions. CREDITED with (creation, orgin of God's word, salvation of men etc.)

5) WORSHIPED and/or given the honor, reverence and position due to GOD ALONE.
I am NOT saying that the Father, Son and Holy Sirit are all consistently, equally and in every mention identified as God in very place they are represented in the Bible by any combination of these 5. NOR am I saying that each person of the Trinity is represented equally by ALL FIVE of these means of identifying God.

I am sayin that each person of the Trinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God as listed above. Now, there is one last thing I want to say regarding the doctrine of the Trinity. I DO NOT believe Trinitariansim is a "REQUIREMENT" for salvation. It is th "RESULT" of salvation, for you cannot know Jesus Christ and somehow miss the FACT that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and someho miss that He is God.

Here is what Romans 8:9-11 states, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. vs10, And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. vs11, But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
not sure i agree that it adds up to scripture, i would love to explain why but i would be banned for doing that.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
413
83
#8
not sure i agree that it adds up to scripture, i would love to explain why but i would be banned for doing that.
Good point. If someone posts contrary to agreeing the trinity is biblical in this forum they're banned? One has to then question the motive of posting a thread that would invite those who oppose the thread titles declaration.

Baiting members to reply with evidence to the contrary of the affirmation of the thread title so they'll be banned?
How many threads do we need on this subject when the subject is already under discussion elsewhere?
Or rather is it a project of confirmation bias?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#9
Good point. If someone posts contrary to agreeing the trinity is biblical in this forum they're banned? One has to then question the motive of posting a thread that would invite those who oppose the thread titles declaration.

Baiting members to reply with evidence to the contrary of the affirmation of the thread title so they'll be banned?
How many threads do we need on this subject when the subject is already under discussion elsewhere?
You are afraid of being banned?!! if you lived in the second century you'd be burned. Burning and burning are just one and the same thing, Jesus never taught to hate people because of their opinions, He wanted us to love our enemies and warned that anyone who called a brother racca was in danger of hell fire.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
413
83
#10
You are afraid of being banned?!! if you lived in the second century you'd be burned. Burning and burning are just one and the same thing, Jesus never taught to hate people because of their opinions, He wanted us to love our enemies and warned that anyone who called a brother racca was in danger of hell fire.
Do you know the meaning of the word, Raca?

I will presume you meant to say burning and banning are just one and the same thing.
I'll also presume you've never witnessed someone burn alive.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,265
426
83
#11
Good point. If someone posts contrary to agreeing the trinity is biblical in this forum they're banned? One has to then question the motive of posting a thread that would invite those who oppose the thread titles declaration.

Baiting members to reply with evidence to the contrary of the affirmation of the thread title so they'll be banned?
How many threads do we need on this subject when the subject is already under discussion elsewhere?
Or rather is it a project of confirmation bias?
starting a "discussion" topic on the trinity where the other side of the argument is not even allowed to speak is hardly a discussion.

it would be like me challenging you to a fist fight and then telling you the rules say i get to tie both your arms behind your back and drug you before the fight starts lol.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
413
83
#12
starting a "discussion" topic on the trinity where the other side of the argument is not even allowed to speak is hardly a discussion.

it would be like me challenging you to a fist fight and then telling you the rules say i get to tie both your arms behind your back and drug you before the fight starts lol.
Good point.
Though as we both know, there is no such thing as an exclusive in a discussion forum. The counter argument is invited in just by the nature of the affirmative in the thread title.

And besides that, the objective of the thread is not possible holding to strict Exegesis. Making for a slow scroll down death of a thread that can go nowhere in matters of inviting actual Biblical proofs to sustain its subject.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,265
426
83
#13
Do you know the meaning of the word, Raca?

I will presume you meant to say burning and banning are just one and the same thing.
I'll also presume you've never witnessed someone burn alive.
if i was given the choce of believing the doctrine or my family burned alive, i would probably accept the doctrine. i dont remember Jesus and the 12 spreading the gospel this way.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
413
83
#14
if i was given the choce of believing the doctrine or my family burned alive, i would probably accept the doctrine. i dont remember Jesus and the 12 spreading the gospel this way.
Jesus said his teachings would divide. However, he did not resort to murderous violence to deliver the good news.
Had he done, people would have needed more good news to arrive as to how to survive against savage missionaries. Protestant faithful sought to break from the Catholic church and well they should have. However, they did no good service in spreading the new doctrine when writing it through the old methods. Savagery, blood, and human ash, is not a righteous legacy for God's good news.

Rather it causes those who live as witness of it to ask, who shall save us from that? And them that orchestrate the deed?

Doctrinal license over God is egocentrism.
And not of God at all.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,577
273
83
#15
What's to prove, read Isaiah 9:6, then meditate on why inthe OT and in the NT we are taught, God is One...........nothing to prove, it is in plain words.......ÇGod is One, yet He will manifest Himself in whatever manner suits His purposes, and His purposes are perfect and good.
What do you mean by "what's to prove?" Are there not people on these forums that deny the deity of Jesus Christ? Are there not people on these forums that deny and go to great lenghts saying the Trinity doctrine is not Biblical and was made up at the Council of Nicea? Are there not people on these forums that deny that Jesus Christ did no preexist His incarnation?

Were not here to play "jacks," these are life and death issues that many are clueless about. The Apostle Peter said at 1 Peter3:15, "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, ALWAYS being ready to make a DEFENSE to everyone who asks you to give an ACCOUNT for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence."

So what are going to tell them jaumej? Just find Isaiah 9:6, read it, mediate on its plain words and God will make sure you'll be ok as long as it suits His purposes. Tell me, how has that method been going for you so far? :rolleyes: :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,577
273
83
#16
Whatever you do to harmonize the scriptures, it must be logical yet the trinity doctrine falls short.

If the son is one person and one being by Himself, we can not have two other persons and still maintain that three of them are one being. Something is amiss- if the three of them are one being, then the son alone can not be a being which we know is falsehood. Either way you fall short; it is better to just say God is what He is without addition of falsehood to bolster a philosophy.

One indication against trinity is that earlier on believers who were against it were tortured and killed - this can not be from God.
First of all the purpose of the thread was to point out two issues. The first one is who is Jesus Christ and the second one is to show the docrine of the Trinity is a Biblical doctrine. It's not made up by some men that met in a "smoked" filled room trying to figure out a way to "dupe" people.

You stated the trinity falls short, how? Does the Bible identify the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as the one God? I can provide the verses if you like and you provide the verses that prove me wrong. So go ahead, give it your best shot and prove the trinity is a falsehood based on philosophy. :eek: I almost forgot to address this statement of yours. One indication against trinity is that earlier on believers who were against it were tortured and killed - this can not be from God." What's that suppose to mean? Christians are totured and killed everyday and in fact Jesus Christ Himself predicted this would happen, so how is your point suppose to be valid?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,577
273
83
#17
Good point. If someone posts contrary to agreeing the trinity is biblical in this forum they're banned? One has to then question the motive of posting a thread that would invite those who oppose the thread titles declaration.

Baiting members to reply with evidence to the contrary of the affirmation of the thread title so they'll be banned?
How many threads do we need on this subject when the subject is already under discussion elsewhere?
Or rather is it a project of confirmation bias?
It's not a good point. These are "debate" forums and nothing should prevent one from presenting an opposing view. I say Jesus Christ is God and that the Trinity teaching is Biblical. All one has to do is give the scriptures to prove it wrong. Or to put it another way, (as an example) I say the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is identified as God. You then say He can't be God because He is a created being according to the scriptures. Ok, then fine, how do we RECONCILE opposing views/scripture?

Why would you get banned for this type of discussion? And there is no "baiting" involved, at least not on my part. So your answer is, "Well there are to many threads on the subject so lets just throw up are arms and call it day? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
413
83
#18
It's not a good point. These are "debate" forums and nothing should prevent one from presenting an opposing view. I say Jesus Christ is God and that the Trinity teaching is Biblical. All one has to do is give the scriptures to prove it wrong. Or to put it another way, (as an example) I say the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is identified as God. You then say He can't be God because He is a created being according to the scriptures. Ok, then fine, how do we RECONCILE opposing views/scripture?

Why would you get banned for this type of discussion? And there is no "baiting" involved, at least not on my part. So your answer is, "Well there are to many threads on the subject so lets just throw up are arms and call it day?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I think when God repeatedly tells us he is one and there is no other beside him, and the new testament tells us that Immanuel was God with us who was begotten upon Mary by the holy spirit that is God, that any convolution that interjects a triune replacement by machinations throughout history and designed to subvert God's words concerning his mono-identity, should be seen for what it is.
God said he is one and there is no other beside him.
That makes the teaching that there are three within and beside him false.
Rome couldn't fabricate the Torah wherein there is not one reference to a triune power. So they fabricated one for their new testament instead.
God is not a man that he should lie. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. When God repeatedly identified as one holy and sacred spirit in the Torah, he didn't change his mind to fulfill his prophecy concerning Messiah come the new testament.
God created man in the beginning from himself and of himself. As he did all that is, was, or ever shall be.

When his sacred and holy spirit begat himself as a human child in the womb of Mary it was creation all over again and from the first cause, source, of all that is created. Jesus was fully human because God created him male and human to deliver the good news the full power of holy spirit God could not deliver to a world as his awesome and eternal spirit being. Looking upon the immensity of that first cause, source , of all things is not possible, as God told us in the old testament, because we would die.
Jesus was also as much as could be contained in the form of God in flesh endowed with God's power being he was God with us. And that is how he performed the miracles he did as proof of the divine. Raising the dead, casting out demons, walking on water, quieting the storm, etc...

When Jesus said, when you have seen me you have seen the father, where's the challenge that he was actually talking triplicate come from? Jesus and God were one. That eradicates a multiple of three. God is holy spirit. That eradicates a multiple of three separate and distinct beings. God, Jesus, holy spirit are God identified.
God is holy spirit and Jesus is holy spirit God in flesh. That's one! Not three.
Exodus 6
3.I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob (Israel) as God Almighty [El Shaddai], but by My name, [c]Lord, I did not make Myself known to them [in acts and great miracles].

Isaiah 43:11
I, [only] I, am the Lord,
And there is no Savior besides Me.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,577
273
83
#19
I think when God repeatedly tells us he is one and there is no other beside him, and the new testament tells us that Immanuel was God with us who was begotten upon Mary by the holy spirit that is God, that any convolution that interjects a triune replacement by machinations throughout history and designed to subvert God's words concerning his mono-identity, should be seen for what it is.
God said he is one and there is no other beside him.
That makes the teaching that there are three within and beside him false.
Rome couldn't fabricate the Torah wherein there is not one reference to a triune power. So they fabricated one for their new testament instead.
God is not a man that he should lie. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. When God repeatedly identified as one holy and sacred spirit in the Torah, he didn't change his mind to fulfill his prophecy concerning Messiah come the new testament.
God created man in the beginning from himself and of himself. As he did all that is, was, or ever shall be.

When his sacred and holy spirit begat himself as a human child in the womb of Mary it was creation all over again and from the first cause, source, of all that is created. Jesus was fully human because God created him male and human to deliver the good news the full power of holy spirit God could not deliver to a world as his awesome and eternal spirit being. Looking upon the immensity of that first cause, source , of all things is not possible, as God told us in the old testament, because we would die.
Jesus was also as much as could be contained in the form of God in flesh endowed with God's power being he was God with us. And that is how he performed the miracles he did as proof of the divine. Raising the dead, casting out demons, walking on water, quieting the storm, etc...

When Jesus said, when you have seen me you have seen the father, where's the challenge that he was actually talking triplicate come from? Jesus and God were one. That eradicates a multiple of three. God is holy spirit. That eradicates a multiple of three separate and distinct beings. God, Jesus, holy spirit are God identified.
God is holy spirit and Jesus is holy spirit God in flesh. That's one! Not three.
Exodus 6
3.I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob (Israel) as God Almighty [El Shaddai], but by My name, [c]Lord, I did not make Myself known to them [in acts and great miracles].

Isaiah 43:11
I, [only] I, am the Lord,
And there is no Savior besides Me.
What kind of "gibberish" are you promoting? In your convoluted second paragraph what verses say, "When his sacred and holy spirit begat himself as a human child in the womb of Mary it was creation all over again and from the first cause, source, of all that is created. Jesus was fully human because God created him male and human to deliver the good news the full power of holy spirit God could not deliver to a world as his awesome and eternal spirit being. Looking upon the immensity of that first cause, source , of all things is not possible, as God told us in the old testament, because we would die."

The Holy Spirit did not began himself as a human child resulting in creation all over again etc. This is nothing but complet and utter nonsense. The birth of Jesus Christ came about by the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary conceiving a Son named "Immanuel, which translated means "God with us." Simply read the text at Matthew 1:20-22. The verses "DO NOT" teach the holy spirit begat himself because the Holy Spirit is not the person of Jesus Christ.

And at John 14:8-16 Jesus is not teaching He is God the Father which is how you think they may be one. At vs10 Jesus says, " I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me. There are two persons in view in this verse, not one person. And look at John 14:16, "And I (that is Jesus Christ, one person) will ask the Father, (a second person), and He/the Father will give another Helper/the Holy Spirit (a third person), that He/the Holy Spirit may be with you forerver." So you have three persons in this one verse alone. And one of those persons, the Holy Spirit will live in a person.

Then if you turn and read John 14:23, "Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, (one person) he will keep My word,; and My Father (the second person) will love him, and WE (now two persons) will come to him, and make OUR (two persons) abode with him." So now you have the Father, the Son and the Holy Sprit all living in a Christian.

And btw, if you read three verses down, John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." I have to ask ostrich, who is bringing to rembrance the gibberish your posting to me?

Now, you quoted Isaiah 43:11, "I, even I, am the Lord; And there is no savior besides Me." Isn't that interesting because Luke 2:11 says, "for today in the city of David there has been born for you a SAVIOR, who is, Christ the Lord." So how many "Saviors" are there and how many Lords are there ostrich? I say one, what about you?

How about Isaiah 44:6, "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts; I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Revelation 1:17,18, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One, and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore." How many "first and last" are there ostrich? Again I say one. And btw, here is what Revelation1:8 states, "I am the Alpha and Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Here again, only one Alpha and Omega who is the Lord God Almighty.

How about one more from Isaiah. Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." The you have another person identified as God doing the following according to John 1:3, "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." In other words, apart or without Jesus Christ nothing has come into being. Colossian 1:16,17 backs up John and so does Hebrews 1:10 and Revelation 3:14.

Finally you brought up Exodus 6:3, "I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but My name, Lord, I did not make Myself known to them." This is what Genesis 17:1,2 states, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, I am God Almighty; Walk before Mea nd be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." So did God the Father appear to Abraham, (you should know that God did appear to Isaac and Jocob) later on in the Old Testament. It's my understand that according to Jesus Christ God the Father cannot be seen, so who appeared to Abraham that is identified as God Almighty at Genesis 17:1,2? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
413
83
#20
What kind of "gibberish" are you promoting? In your convoluted second paragraph what verses say, "When his sacred and holy spirit begat himself as a human child in the womb of Mary it was creation all over again and from the first cause, source, of all that is created. Jesus was fully human because God created him male and human to deliver the good news the full power of holy spirit God could not deliver to a world as his awesome and eternal spirit being. Looking upon the immensity of that first cause, source , of all things is not possible, as God told us in the old testament, because we would die."

The Holy Spirit did not began himself as a human child resulting in creation all over again etc. This is nothing but complet and utter nonsense. The birth of Jesus Christ came about by the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary conceiving a Son named "Immanuel, which translated means "God with us." Simply read the text at Matthew 1:20-22. The verses "DO NOT" teach the holy spirit begat himself because the Holy Spirit is not the person of Jesus Christ.

And at John 14:8-16 Jesus is not teaching He is God the Father which is how you think they may be one. At vs10 Jesus says, " I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me. There are two persons in view in this verse, not one person. And look at John 14:16, "And I (that is Jesus Christ, one person) will ask the Father, (a second person), and He/the Father will give another Helper/the Holy Spirit (a third person), that He/the Holy Spirit may be with you forerver." So you have three persons in this one verse alone. And one of those persons, the Holy Spirit will live in a person.

Then if you turn and read John 14:23, "Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, (one person) he will keep My word,; and My Father (the second person) will love him, and WE (now two persons) will come to him, and make OUR (two persons) abode with him." So now you have the Father, the Son and the Holy Sprit all living in a Christian.

And btw, if you read three verses down, John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." I have to ask ostrich, who is bringing to rembrance the gibberish your posting to me?

Now, you quoted Isaiah 43:11, "I, even I, am the Lord; And there is no savior besides Me." Isn't that interesting because Luke 2:11 says, "for today in the city of David there has been born for you a SAVIOR, who is, Christ the Lord." So how many "Saviors" are there and how many Lords are there ostrich? I say one, what about you?

How about Isaiah 44:6, "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts; I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Revelation 1:17,18, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One, and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore." How many "first and last" are there ostrich? Again I say one. And btw, here is what Revelation1:8 states, "I am the Alpha and Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Here again, only one Alpha and Omega who is the Lord God Almighty.

How about one more from Isaiah. Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." The you have another person identified as God doing the following according to John 1:3, "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." In other words, apart or without Jesus Christ nothing has come into being. Colossian 1:16,17 backs up John and so does Hebrews 1:10 and Revelation 3:14.

Finally you brought up Exodus 6:3, "I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but My name, Lord, I did not make Myself known to them." This is what Genesis 17:1,2 states, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, I am God Almighty; Walk before Mea nd be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." So did God the Father appear to Abraham, (you should know that God did appear to Isaac and Jocob) later on in the Old Testament. It's my understand that according to Jesus Christ God the Father cannot be seen, so who appeared to Abraham that is identified as God Almighty at Genesis 17:1,2?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
KJV Dictionary Definition: beget
beget
BEGET', v.t. pret. begot, begat; pp. begot, begotten.
1. To procreate, as a father or sire; to generate; as, to beget a son.
2. To produce, as an effect; to cause to exist; to generate; as, luxury begets vice.