Psalm 12 under the microscope

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#21
Verse 6
אִֽמֲרֹ֣ות יְהוָה֮ אֲמָרֹ֪ות טְהֹ֫רֹ֥ות כֶּ֣סֶף צָ֭רוּף בַּעֲלִ֣יל לָאָ֑רֶץ מְ֝זֻקָּ֗ק שִׁבְעָתָֽיִם
Literal rendering:The words of Yahweh [YHWH] words [are] pure [like] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified sevenfold.
KJV (idiomatic)
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. [Note: "are" and "as" are in italics to show that they were added. This shows the faithfulness of this translation]

Verse 7
אַתָּֽה־יְהוָ֥ה תִּשְׁמְרֵ֑ם תִּצְּרֶ֓נּוּ ׀ מִן־הַדֹּ֖ור ז֣וּ לְעֹולָֽם׃
Literal rendering: You Yahweh [YHWH] shall keep them, you shall preserve them from this generation forever.
KJV (idiomatic)
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


We should note several things regarding these two verses:

1. They are NOT a part of the context of the rest of the psalm, which is focused on the prevailing wickedness of that generation (as well as ours). This is not unusual at all in Scripture, since many psalms have this kind of disjointed composition. The same applies to prophecies.

2. The King James Bible has rendered the Hebrew faithfully and idiomatically. There is no "and" at the beginning of verse 6, which was gratuitously added by the NIV. "LORD" in small capitals stands for YHWH (Yahweh).

3. Both these verses are related. Verse 6 speaks of the absolute perfection of the words of God, while verse 7 speaks of (a) the preservation of God's Word and (b) the eternality of the Word of God. Both these thoughts are expressed by Peter in 1 Peter 1:23-25:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. [Note: Peter is saying that the genuine Word of God is incorruptible]

4. Christians should be aware that the NIV is not only a corrupt modern translation based upon corrupted Hebrew and Greek texts, but it is also a paraphrase which plays fast and loose with Scripture, and adds or subtracts words at will. (All modern versions are untrustworthy).

5. Christians should also be aware that the doctrine of the divine preservation of the written Word of God has been seriously attacked and undermined by (a) rationalistic critics who put out the critical editions of the Hebrew and Greek texts based on corrupted manuscripts and (b) modern versions which claim that for hundreds of years the Bible was corrupt, and all of a sudden it was purified in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
Are you saying that the KJV is God’s words preserved for us today in the English language? I hope that is your intent.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
13,306
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#22
You're wrong. I suspect your error is rooted in your preconceptions about the meaning of this passage. Look at it with fresh eyes.

Even if verse 7 refers to "words" (I don't believe it does), the verse would say, "Thou shalt preserve Thy words from this generation forever". That is not the same meaning as "Thou shalt preserve Thy words forever". In order for your version to be correct, you must excise the words "from this generation" from the verse.

The generation would be the generation of Christ. The generation of faith. The righteous born again generation .Not the corrupted generation of Adam as in all die.

They are tested and tried words as silver. They are perfect not lacking that which defend us. You could say tried by two perfects. One the law Deuteronomy 4:3( not to add or subtract from a word singular) .Seeing changing the meaning of a word it could effect commandments many. And the perfect as to the end of the silver mind. The warning in Revelation 22 as to the whole word . Both working as one to protect the integrity of it.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
12,861
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#23
Verse 6
אִֽמֲרֹ֣ות יְהוָה֮ אֲמָרֹ֪ות טְהֹ֫רֹ֥ות כֶּ֣סֶף צָ֭רוּף בַּעֲלִ֣יל לָאָ֑רֶץ מְ֝זֻקָּ֗ק שִׁבְעָתָֽיִם
Literal rendering:The words of Yahweh [YHWH] words [are] pure [like] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified sevenfold.
KJV (idiomatic)
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. [Note: "are" and "as" are in italics to show that they were added. This shows the faithfulness of this translation]

Verse 7
אַתָּֽה־יְהוָ֥ה תִּשְׁמְרֵ֑ם תִּצְּרֶ֓נּוּ ׀ מִן־הַדֹּ֖ור ז֣וּ לְעֹולָֽם׃
Literal rendering: You Yahweh [YHWH] shall keep them, you shall preserve them from this generation forever.
KJV (idiomatic)
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


We should note several things regarding these two verses:

1. They are NOT a part of the context of the rest of the psalm, which is focused on the prevailing wickedness of that generation (as well as ours). This is not unusual at all in Scripture, since many psalms have this kind of disjointed composition. The same applies to prophecies.

2. The King James Bible has rendered the Hebrew faithfully and idiomatically. There is no "and" at the beginning of verse 6, which was gratuitously added by the NIV. "LORD" in small capitals stands for YHWH (Yahweh).

3. Both these verses are related. Verse 6 speaks of the absolute perfection of the words of God, while verse 7 speaks of (a) the preservation of God's Word and (b) the eternality of the Word of God. Both these thoughts are expressed by Peter in 1 Peter 1:23-25:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. [Note: Peter is saying that the genuine Word of God is incorruptible]

4. Christians should be aware that the NIV is not only a corrupt modern translation based upon corrupted Hebrew and Greek texts, but it is also a paraphrase which plays fast and loose with Scripture, and adds or subtracts words at will. (All modern versions are untrustworthy).

5. Christians should also be aware that the doctrine of the divine preservation of the written Word of God has been seriously attacked and undermined by (a) rationalistic critics who put out the critical editions of the Hebrew and Greek texts based on corrupted manuscripts and (b) modern versions which claim that for hundreds of years the Bible was corrupt, and all of a sudden it was purified in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
I am well aware of your hatred of the NIV, but I am not making any claim to its validity as a translation in its entirety. I merely used it to provide a modern-English version of the Psalm and made some comments relevant to its rendering of Psalm 12.

I am not attacking the doctrine of divine preservation. Rather, I am addressing the claim that verse 6 refers to the KJV and the frequent misquotation of verse 7.

Your claim that verses 6 and 7 are intentionally disjointed is nothing more than opinion, with which I strongly disagree. It's too convenient to your cause, and the reference to His words in verse 5 makes far more sense to me. Verse 5 clearly states, in God's own words, "I will... set him [the poor and needy] in safety...", and verse 7 connects logically to that "him". There is no textual variant here, so the difference (them, him, us) is entirely one of interpretation.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
12,861
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#24
The generation would be the generation of Christ. The generation of faith. The righteous born again generation .Not the corrupted generation of Adam as in all die.

They are tested and tried words as silver. They are perfect not lacking that which defend us. You could say tried by two perfects. One the law Deuteronomy 4:3( not to add or subtract from a word singular) .Seeing changing the meaning of a word it could effect commandments many. And the perfect as to the end of the silver mind. The warning in Revelation 22 as to the whole word . Both working as one to protect the integrity of it.
Garee, please read the entire thread before responding further.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
339
57
28
#25
I have yet to see an explanation of this disjoint from anyone who prefers the KJV.
The disjoint is that the NIV leads one to think that simply because they believe that the LORD will preserve them regardless to whether or not what they believe about him is true or not whereas the KJV avers to his words being the 'them' that he shall preserve.

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times .Ps 12:6-7

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. Ps 12:7

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:16-17

John 17:8
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
12,861
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#26
The disjoint is that the NIV leads one to think that simply because they believe that the LORD will preserve them regardless to whether or not what they believe about him is true or not whereas the KJV avers to his words being the 'them' that he shall preserve.

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times .Ps 12:6-7

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. Ps 12:7

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:16-17

John 17:8
If you're responding to the portion of my post that you quoted, your argument is flawed, because you start with a statement about the NIV. You can't make an argument in favour of the KJV merely by claiming something about another translation. The KJV by itself seems disjointed.

The KJV does not "aver" to "them" meaning "His words". That's an interpretation, and is at the root of this discussion. If you're trying to make that the basis of your claim, your reasoning is circular.

Further, you've completely overlooked the words, "from this generation"... like almost everyone else who comments on the verse. Either God promises to preserve His words "from this generation," or He promises to preserve some people "from this generation."
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
13,306
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#27
Garee, please read the entire thread before responding further.
I have read it. The generation would be the generation of Christ. The forever generation. The generation of faith. The righteous born again generation .Not the corrupted generation of Adam as in all die.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
12,861
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#28
I have read it. The generation would be the generation of Christ. The forever generation. The generation of faith. The righteous born again generation .Not the corrupted generation of Adam as in all die.
You had better read it again, because you have conflated the generation of Christ with the generation of the wicked. Your comments are completely off the mark.

If you were correct, then God has promised to preserve His word FROM the generation of Christ. That would be wacky.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
10,574
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#30
Your claim that verses 6 and 7 are intentionally disjointed is nothing more than opinion, with which I strongly disagree.
No it is not opinion. It is the logical and spiritual conclusion based upon the context. There is absolutely no connection between the wickedness of mankind and the perfect of the Word of God.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#31
Are you saying that the KJV is God’s words preserved for us today in the English language? I hope that is your intent.
Yes. For all intents are purposes that is correct. Which does not mean that it is inspired, but it does mean that it is a careful and faithful word-for-word English translation which has stood the test of time for over 400 years.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
12,861
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#32
No it is not opinion. It is the logical and spiritual conclusion based upon the context. There is absolutely no connection between the wickedness of mankind and the perfect of the Word of God.
It's true that the word of God is set apart from the wickedness of man, but using that as an explanation for the disjoint in Psalm 12 is grasping at straws. I don't agree with your opinion.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#33
It's true that the word of God is set apart from the wickedness of man, but using that as an explanation for the disjoint in Psalm 12 is grasping at straws. I don't agree with your opinion.
I see the whole psalm about the wicked and vile words of man compared to the pure words of God. That’s pretty much the overall theme of every psalm.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
13,306
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#34
You had better read it again, because you have conflated the generation of Christ with the generation of the wicked. Your comments are completely off the mark.

If you were correct, then God has promised to preserve His word FROM the generation of Christ. That would be wacky.
The generation of the wicked is the evil generation. The generation of Adam unconverted mankind.

Yes, from the generation of Christ those under the defense of the armor of God , the faith we protect with all our heart soul and mind. . . To the same generation of Christ .Faith to faith . The imputed righteousness generation.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
12,861
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#35
The generation of the wicked is the evil generation. The generation of Adam unconverted mankind.

Yes, from the generation of Christ those under the defense of the armor of God , the faith we protect with all our heart soul and mind. . . To the same generation of Christ .Faith to faith . The imputed righteousness generation.
... which has nothing whatsoever to do with Psalm 12.

Please try to stay relevant to the thread topic.
 

GaryA

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2019
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#36
Dino:

The phrase "from this generation" is not in a sense like you would keep something from someone; rather, it indicates a beginning mark in time.

The phrase "from this generation for ever" is in the sense of "from now until" - from starting point to ever-after.

Using the former idea, the words "preserve from" would not make proper sense. Using this idea, you can "protect from" something, but you cannot "preserve from" something.

That idea is built into the definition of the word - along with the time element also; however, you would not (grammatically) put the two words 'preserve' and 'from' together to formulate that idea. It would be somewhat redundant to do so.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
12,861
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#37
Dino:

The phrase "from this generation" is not in a sense like you would keep something from someone; rather, it indicates a beginning mark in time.

The phrase "from this generation for ever" is in the sense of "from now until" - from starting point to ever-after.

Using the former idea, the words "preserve from" would not make proper sense. Using this idea, you can "protect from" something, but you cannot "preserve from" something.

That idea is built into the definition of the word - along with the time element also; however, you would not (grammatically) put the two words 'preserve' and 'from' together to formulate that idea. It would be somewhat redundant to do so.
While you make an interest point, I disagree with the reasoning you provide. The suggestion that "from this generation forever" means "from this time forward until forever" and not "from the destructive influence of this generation forever" does not connect logically to any other part of the psalm. Further, your claim that one cannot "preserve from" is simply incorrect. The word itself implies "from destruction".
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
2,663
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Texas
#38
This is why I like the NASB.

It's very clear.

You, O Lord , will keep them; You will preserve him from this generation forever.
Psalms 12:7 NASB

You will keep this person of need from this generation of wicked men who strut around because vileness prevails.

It helps to remember there originally weren't numbered verses, and all passages were a part of a complete statement.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
12,861
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#40
Did you not read the last paragraph???
Loaded question!

I did read it, and I'll add that it is quite legitimate to use "from" with "preserve" when identifying a specific risk or cause. When someone preserves garden produce, they preserve from mould, bacteria, and oxygen.