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i would love to respond to this post, but i am not sure its a good idea today.
i'll just post a link and leave it at that.
http://www.seekgod.ca/embraceintro.htm
i'll just post a link and leave it at that.
http://www.seekgod.ca/embraceintro.htm
A
wow im really getting on this forum thing 2 one one day woo go me..
um and in answer to you question
i believe as much as this sucks they were never saved in the first place.
what do we know from salvation... God creates in you a new heart, new desires and are a new creation and then sealed with the holy spirit.
Jesus also said who my father gives me will not be plucked from my hands.
so if they were saved and somehow losed their salvation means holy spirit now becomes a yo yo and that everytime people lose and gain salvation he goes in and out of them and isnt exactly sealed to them
and then God gives them a new heart then doesnt then does etc
and again noone my father gives me will be plucked out of my hands
so they were never saved in the first place which sucks
but hopefully they will become saved sometime in the future and realise what they are doing
um and in answer to you question
i believe as much as this sucks they were never saved in the first place.
what do we know from salvation... God creates in you a new heart, new desires and are a new creation and then sealed with the holy spirit.
Jesus also said who my father gives me will not be plucked from my hands.
so if they were saved and somehow losed their salvation means holy spirit now becomes a yo yo and that everytime people lose and gain salvation he goes in and out of them and isnt exactly sealed to them
and then God gives them a new heart then doesnt then does etc
and again noone my father gives me will be plucked out of my hands
so they were never saved in the first place which sucks
but hopefully they will become saved sometime in the future and realise what they are doing
Amen to this!
7
The Father respects where we are. The children of Israel were in bondage in Egypt. That bondage is what led them to depend on YHWH.
They would be wrong to curse Egypt. It is merely part of their past. What is wrong is to settle for entry-level faith when we should be digging deeper.
Of course, you got saved in the Name of Jesus. He knows where you are, and what you have been able to find. But, you are instructed to search the scriptures and rightly divide the Word. You are instructed to search the deep things. Don't rely on someone else to manage your relationship for you.
And, yes, learning his Name is important. Now that you know His Name you should endeavor to learn more about it. What is the Third Commandment?
Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
LORD is used more than 6,000 times to replace YHWH in the Bible. Why is His Name being hidden? If you can use any name you want to address YHWH then Allah or Buddha or Vishnu would be good enough. Our Father has a Name. we should know it.
They would be wrong to curse Egypt. It is merely part of their past. What is wrong is to settle for entry-level faith when we should be digging deeper.
Of course, you got saved in the Name of Jesus. He knows where you are, and what you have been able to find. But, you are instructed to search the scriptures and rightly divide the Word. You are instructed to search the deep things. Don't rely on someone else to manage your relationship for you.
And, yes, learning his Name is important. Now that you know His Name you should endeavor to learn more about it. What is the Third Commandment?
Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
LORD is used more than 6,000 times to replace YHWH in the Bible. Why is His Name being hidden? If you can use any name you want to address YHWH then Allah or Buddha or Vishnu would be good enough. Our Father has a Name. we should know it.
J
Hi
I have read through all these comments to ensure I do not repeat anything.
The above passage needs to be considered in the context of the whole book of Hebrews and then compared with scripture teaching throughout the Bible. The writer to Hebrews was pointing out who Jesus was and why He was the mediator of the New Covenant. Jesus fulfilled in EVERY way the direct and indirect prophecies in the OT. We see Jesus throughout the OT scriptures even when it is not immediately apparent, for example the TABERNACLE was a description of Jesus. A shadow and copy of the things to come. The writer to Hebrews was showing how RIDICULOUS it was to return back to theOT way of doing things because Jesus has opened a new way - a MUCH BETTER WAY.
In this context, the writer is saying that the death of Jesus is of no benefit to them if they return back to the Law and continue as if nothing had happened, ie that Jesus wasted His death and blood on them. The word "fall away" in Hebrews 6 is referring to falling away from grace.
It does not mean falling away from salvation. It means that they are not living in the freedom of grace but have fallen back into the prison of the Law and sacrifices, which cannot save or give them life.
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance"
What is repentance? It is a U Turn in thinking and therefore leads to a Godly sorrow and a changed life. These people had ALREADY repented and believed upon Jesus. How can they be brought back to repentance, if they have already repented? You can't be born-again a second time. However, they will suffer much loss in the meanwhile as they miss out on the full benefits of grace. How can they experience the beauty and wonder and benefits of repentance eg being born-again, if they have already experienced these things. It cannot happen a second time. It doesn't specifically say that they have lost their salvation, DOES IT!
Check verse 1. It starts by saying "Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ ...........not laying again the foundation of repentance.
So context sets the scene. The writer is saying that repentance has already been experienced, already dealt with, so impossible to go back into a life without Christ and repent all over again.
However, even if Hebrews 6 was talking about those who were NOT saved, here is another interpretation:
Those mentioned were enlightened but not saved. They tasted but did not drink. They experienced spiritual power but were not personally born again. These Jews had come out of Christ-rejecting Judaism into a knowledge of the truth, yet they had stopped short of actual faith in Christ. With full knowledge of the gospel, they had turned their backs on Christ. The context may indicate that the author of Hebrews did not have true believers in mind here. Verse 9 states: ‘‘But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation.’’ In other words, no true believer can apostatise. (If this passage taught loss of salvation, the loss would be permanent — no repentance is possible according to v6).
I have written an article on "Why True Believers Are Eternally Secure In Their Salvation" which gives a complete list of all the verses and reasons why it is not possible to lose your salvation once you have been truly born-again. To read it please CLICK HERE
I have read through all these comments to ensure I do not repeat anything.
The above passage needs to be considered in the context of the whole book of Hebrews and then compared with scripture teaching throughout the Bible. The writer to Hebrews was pointing out who Jesus was and why He was the mediator of the New Covenant. Jesus fulfilled in EVERY way the direct and indirect prophecies in the OT. We see Jesus throughout the OT scriptures even when it is not immediately apparent, for example the TABERNACLE was a description of Jesus. A shadow and copy of the things to come. The writer to Hebrews was showing how RIDICULOUS it was to return back to theOT way of doing things because Jesus has opened a new way - a MUCH BETTER WAY.
In this context, the writer is saying that the death of Jesus is of no benefit to them if they return back to the Law and continue as if nothing had happened, ie that Jesus wasted His death and blood on them. The word "fall away" in Hebrews 6 is referring to falling away from grace.
It does not mean falling away from salvation. It means that they are not living in the freedom of grace but have fallen back into the prison of the Law and sacrifices, which cannot save or give them life.
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance"
What is repentance? It is a U Turn in thinking and therefore leads to a Godly sorrow and a changed life. These people had ALREADY repented and believed upon Jesus. How can they be brought back to repentance, if they have already repented? You can't be born-again a second time. However, they will suffer much loss in the meanwhile as they miss out on the full benefits of grace. How can they experience the beauty and wonder and benefits of repentance eg being born-again, if they have already experienced these things. It cannot happen a second time. It doesn't specifically say that they have lost their salvation, DOES IT!
Check verse 1. It starts by saying "Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ ...........not laying again the foundation of repentance.
So context sets the scene. The writer is saying that repentance has already been experienced, already dealt with, so impossible to go back into a life without Christ and repent all over again.
However, even if Hebrews 6 was talking about those who were NOT saved, here is another interpretation:
Those mentioned were enlightened but not saved. They tasted but did not drink. They experienced spiritual power but were not personally born again. These Jews had come out of Christ-rejecting Judaism into a knowledge of the truth, yet they had stopped short of actual faith in Christ. With full knowledge of the gospel, they had turned their backs on Christ. The context may indicate that the author of Hebrews did not have true believers in mind here. Verse 9 states: ‘‘But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation.’’ In other words, no true believer can apostatise. (If this passage taught loss of salvation, the loss would be permanent — no repentance is possible according to v6).
I have written an article on "Why True Believers Are Eternally Secure In Their Salvation" which gives a complete list of all the verses and reasons why it is not possible to lose your salvation once you have been truly born-again. To read it please CLICK HERE
K
They've been misled by the enemy. It happens to believers. Instead of "keeping their head", they let other beliefs in. It happens in war. People hear the "best" of the "other side" but they don't look at the situation at a whole.
You and your dad just keep the faith and keep reminding yourselves, and others, of who you and they are in Christ.
Be ready for the "fallen" to come back at any time. Stay on your toes!
You and your dad just keep the faith and keep reminding yourselves, and others, of who you and they are in Christ.
Be ready for the "fallen" to come back at any time. Stay on your toes!
john
as noted, this is my reading also.
not "full knowledge' of the Gospel, for had they received it, they would have never fallen from Grace extended. this warning is, as you nicely showed, in a book specifically to Hebrews and is about falling back into Judaism/Law, I ALSO BELIEVE IT applies to those who BEGIN investigating (for lack of a better word) CHRIST, but fall INTO Judaism by choice. THE HEBREW ROOTS MOVEMENT is an example....i can show how.
the result in the heart for the Heb 6:6 people is the same as the apostate hebrews in 33ad: CRUCIFY HIM. that's what the apostle/writer was saying.
as noted, this is my reading also.
not "full knowledge' of the Gospel, for had they received it, they would have never fallen from Grace extended. this warning is, as you nicely showed, in a book specifically to Hebrews and is about falling back into Judaism/Law, I ALSO BELIEVE IT applies to those who BEGIN investigating (for lack of a better word) CHRIST, but fall INTO Judaism by choice. THE HEBREW ROOTS MOVEMENT is an example....i can show how.
the result in the heart for the Heb 6:6 people is the same as the apostate hebrews in 33ad: CRUCIFY HIM. that's what the apostle/writer was saying.
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J
Hi Zone
My personal difficulty with that interpretation is that it goes on to say that it is impossible for these people to repent later. If these had never been born again, why is it not possible to receive Christ in true repentance later (once they have been properly enlightened)? "It is not God's will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance". This means that (like in the prodigal son) the Father seeks out for the lost. His love is so great that He will continue to reach out His hand (especially to those who have NOT hardened their hearts yet).
By stating that those verses are talking about those who had never been born-again weould be to suggest that they never will be saved. Therefore, I lean towards my first interpretation. It seems to fit in with many other "difficult" passages of scripture and still retains the "once saved, always saved" teachings of the majority of scripture.
My personal difficulty with that interpretation is that it goes on to say that it is impossible for these people to repent later. If these had never been born again, why is it not possible to receive Christ in true repentance later (once they have been properly enlightened)? "It is not God's will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance". This means that (like in the prodigal son) the Father seeks out for the lost. His love is so great that He will continue to reach out His hand (especially to those who have NOT hardened their hearts yet).
By stating that those verses are talking about those who had never been born-again weould be to suggest that they never will be saved. Therefore, I lean towards my first interpretation. It seems to fit in with many other "difficult" passages of scripture and still retains the "once saved, always saved" teachings of the majority of scripture.
that's fair, and many commentators agree with you.
the problem is with the translations. small difficulties in the translations have caused problems for all of us.
(PPS is a greek linguist so we can ask him to help).
examples:
If they shall fall away - literally, "and having fallen away." "There is no if in the Greek in this place - "having fallen away." Dr. John P. Wilson. It is not an affirmation that any had actually fallen away, or that in fact they would do it....
....The word rendered "fall away" means properly "to fall near by anyone;" "to fall in with or meet;" and thus to fall aside from, to swerve or deviate from; and here means undoubtedly to "apostatize from," and implies an entire renunciation of Christianity, or a going back to a state of Judaism, paganism, or sin. The Greek word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It is material to remark here that the apostle does not say that any true Christian ever had fallen away.....
Barnes'
..................................................
....The word rendered "fall away" means properly "to fall near by anyone;" "to fall in with or meet;" and thus to fall aside from, to swerve or deviate from; and here means undoubtedly to "apostatize from," and implies an entire renunciation of Christianity, or a going back to a state of Judaism, paganism, or sin. The Greek word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It is material to remark here that the apostle does not say that any true Christian ever had fallen away....
from Clarke ("not Calvinist", believed one could lose their salvation, yet at times is unable to conclude one way or the other)
.................................................
....to renew them again unto repentance, is a thing impossible: by "repentance" is meant, not baptism of repentance; nor admission to a solemn form of public repentance in the church; nor a legal repentance, but an evangelical one: and so to be "renewed" unto it is not to be baptized again, or to be restored anew to the church by repentance, and absolution; but must be understood either of renovation of the soul, in order to repentance; or of the reforming of the outward conversation, as an evidence of it; or of a renewing of the exercise of the grace of repentance and to be renewed "again" to repentance does not suppose that persons may have true repentance and lose it; for though truly penitent persons may lose the exercise of this grace for a time, yet the grace itself can never be lost:
moreover, these apostates before described had only a show of repentance, a counterfeit one; such as Cain, Pharaoh, and Judas had; and consequently, the renewing of them again to repentance, is to that which they only seemed to have, and to make pretensions unto; now to renew them to a true repentance, which they once made a profession of, the apostle says is a thing "impossible": the meaning of which is not only that it is difficult; or that it is rare and unusual; or that it is unsuitable and improper; but it is absolutely impossible.....
Gill
................................................
in any case: this is the best resource i have on it, and one can spend a lifetime on it.
many have.
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Note: Hebrews has some very controversial passages (especially in chapters 6,10 and 12) so you are strongly advises to perform your own inductive study of these passages before consulting the sermons or commentaries. It is very important to interpret these difficult sections in the context of the overall message of Hebrews. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]The Precept Upon Precept Inductive Study of Hebrews (published by Precept Ministries International) is highly recommended and provides an excellent opportunity for you to arrive at your own conclusions regarding the difficult sections in Hebrews. After completing this inductive study, you will be able to read the sermons and commentaries with an educated eye! Click here for a link to the in depth inductive study of Hebrews Part 1 (11 lessons covering chapters 1-4). Note that you can download a complete sample of Lesson 1. Click here for a link to the Precept Upon Precept study of Hebrews Part 2 (19 lessons covering chapters 5-13) where you again have the option to download Lesson 1. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][/FONT]
http://www.preceptaustin.org/hebrews.htm
the problem is with the translations. small difficulties in the translations have caused problems for all of us.
(PPS is a greek linguist so we can ask him to help).
examples:
If they shall fall away - literally, "and having fallen away." "There is no if in the Greek in this place - "having fallen away." Dr. John P. Wilson. It is not an affirmation that any had actually fallen away, or that in fact they would do it....
....The word rendered "fall away" means properly "to fall near by anyone;" "to fall in with or meet;" and thus to fall aside from, to swerve or deviate from; and here means undoubtedly to "apostatize from," and implies an entire renunciation of Christianity, or a going back to a state of Judaism, paganism, or sin. The Greek word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It is material to remark here that the apostle does not say that any true Christian ever had fallen away.....
Barnes'
..................................................
....The word rendered "fall away" means properly "to fall near by anyone;" "to fall in with or meet;" and thus to fall aside from, to swerve or deviate from; and here means undoubtedly to "apostatize from," and implies an entire renunciation of Christianity, or a going back to a state of Judaism, paganism, or sin. The Greek word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It is material to remark here that the apostle does not say that any true Christian ever had fallen away....
from Clarke ("not Calvinist", believed one could lose their salvation, yet at times is unable to conclude one way or the other)
.................................................
....to renew them again unto repentance, is a thing impossible: by "repentance" is meant, not baptism of repentance; nor admission to a solemn form of public repentance in the church; nor a legal repentance, but an evangelical one: and so to be "renewed" unto it is not to be baptized again, or to be restored anew to the church by repentance, and absolution; but must be understood either of renovation of the soul, in order to repentance; or of the reforming of the outward conversation, as an evidence of it; or of a renewing of the exercise of the grace of repentance and to be renewed "again" to repentance does not suppose that persons may have true repentance and lose it; for though truly penitent persons may lose the exercise of this grace for a time, yet the grace itself can never be lost:
moreover, these apostates before described had only a show of repentance, a counterfeit one; such as Cain, Pharaoh, and Judas had; and consequently, the renewing of them again to repentance, is to that which they only seemed to have, and to make pretensions unto; now to renew them to a true repentance, which they once made a profession of, the apostle says is a thing "impossible": the meaning of which is not only that it is difficult; or that it is rare and unusual; or that it is unsuitable and improper; but it is absolutely impossible.....
Gill
................................................
in any case: this is the best resource i have on it, and one can spend a lifetime on it.
many have.
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Note: Hebrews has some very controversial passages (especially in chapters 6,10 and 12) so you are strongly advises to perform your own inductive study of these passages before consulting the sermons or commentaries. It is very important to interpret these difficult sections in the context of the overall message of Hebrews. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]The Precept Upon Precept Inductive Study of Hebrews (published by Precept Ministries International) is highly recommended and provides an excellent opportunity for you to arrive at your own conclusions regarding the difficult sections in Hebrews. After completing this inductive study, you will be able to read the sermons and commentaries with an educated eye! Click here for a link to the in depth inductive study of Hebrews Part 1 (11 lessons covering chapters 1-4). Note that you can download a complete sample of Lesson 1. Click here for a link to the Precept Upon Precept study of Hebrews Part 2 (19 lessons covering chapters 5-13) where you again have the option to download Lesson 1. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][/FONT]
http://www.preceptaustin.org/hebrews.htm
[i wish i had learned the greek language....it's a real loss for me.]
that verse in Peter is a misunderstood one, imo.
it comes from Peter, and his letters are specifically addressed TO THE ELECTION. when used outside monergism and election, it says God is unable to save all men though He wants to. this is unacceptable to me because i believe first and foremost in the Sovereignty of God and His Will to utterly save whom He will.
i do not believe He fails AT ALL.
there's no question whatsoever we are called and must endure the tension between the ALREADY/NOT YET and obey His counsel and be transformed. i simply can not reach any other conclusion from a) my personal salvation experience (NOT IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER MY OWN DOING, IT WAS LIKE THE WIND), and b) my reading of Scripture with confirmation by The Holy Ghost.
anyway.....re Peter's comment concerning NOT WILLING THAT ANY PERISH .....look at Peter's greeting and introduction to this letter:
2 Peter 1
Greeting
1Simeona Peter, a servantb and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
Make Your Calling and Election Sure
3His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us toc his own glory and excellence,d 4by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,e and virtue with knowledge, 6and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8For if these qualitiesf are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10Therefore, brothers,g be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
12Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13I think it right, as long as I am in this body,h to stir you up by way of reminder, 14since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.
2 Peter 3:9
English Standard Version (©2001)
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
International Standard Version (©2008)
The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some people understand slowness, but is being patient with you. He does not want anyone to perish, but wants everyone to repent.
~
now look what Paul says about the election and calling:
Romans 11:29
New International Version (©1984)
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
New Living Translation (©2007)
For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
English Standard Version (©2001)
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
~
re: the repentence passage in Hebrews 6: i personally believe it refers to the repentence UNTO salvation, which is granted as a gift by God, not professions of "repentence/regret" as in the following:
2 Corinthians 7:1
New International Version (©1984)
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
New Living Translation (©2007)
For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There's no regret for that kind of sorrow. But worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual death.
English Standard Version (©2001)
For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
we all know that through sanctification we are convicted and scourged and pruned, which is repentence also....i do not think that is what is addressed in Heb 6. again, the translations are an issue.
z
that verse in Peter is a misunderstood one, imo.
it comes from Peter, and his letters are specifically addressed TO THE ELECTION. when used outside monergism and election, it says God is unable to save all men though He wants to. this is unacceptable to me because i believe first and foremost in the Sovereignty of God and His Will to utterly save whom He will.
i do not believe He fails AT ALL.
there's no question whatsoever we are called and must endure the tension between the ALREADY/NOT YET and obey His counsel and be transformed. i simply can not reach any other conclusion from a) my personal salvation experience (NOT IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER MY OWN DOING, IT WAS LIKE THE WIND), and b) my reading of Scripture with confirmation by The Holy Ghost.
anyway.....re Peter's comment concerning NOT WILLING THAT ANY PERISH .....look at Peter's greeting and introduction to this letter:
2 Peter 1
Greeting
1Simeona Peter, a servantb and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
Make Your Calling and Election Sure
3His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us toc his own glory and excellence,d 4by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,e and virtue with knowledge, 6and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8For if these qualitiesf are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10Therefore, brothers,g be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
12Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13I think it right, as long as I am in this body,h to stir you up by way of reminder, 14since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.
2 Peter 3:9
English Standard Version (©2001)
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
International Standard Version (©2008)
The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some people understand slowness, but is being patient with you. He does not want anyone to perish, but wants everyone to repent.
~
now look what Paul says about the election and calling:
Romans 11:29
New International Version (©1984)
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
New Living Translation (©2007)
For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
English Standard Version (©2001)
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
~
re: the repentence passage in Hebrews 6: i personally believe it refers to the repentence UNTO salvation, which is granted as a gift by God, not professions of "repentence/regret" as in the following:
2 Corinthians 7:1
New International Version (©1984)
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
New Living Translation (©2007)
For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There's no regret for that kind of sorrow. But worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual death.
English Standard Version (©2001)
For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
we all know that through sanctification we are convicted and scourged and pruned, which is repentence also....i do not think that is what is addressed in Heb 6. again, the translations are an issue.
z
This is probably not the forum to deal with this but you have posted because you have a pure heart. In (Gal 2) when certain Jews who came from James and the church in Jerusalem, they caused a stirring, so much so, with their hypocrisy (dissimulation) that there were Jews and even Barnabas that were lead away for a time and Paul blamed Peter for what happened. This was a much stronger issue among the Jews at that time and many of them needed to be converted as did Peter in (Lk 22:32) who already believe and was saved before he was converted (Mt 16:16) or was breathed upon by the Holy Spirit (Jn 20:22).
If this married couple has trusted in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, God will never leave them or forsake them. If they are having a problem with God's name or the name of Jesus, that is something that can be resolved and it does not mean that they have not been cleansed from their sin and do not have God's righteousness. If this issue has taken them away from your Dad's church, pray for them, believe the best and always remain their friend. This is something that happens within assemblies and to say they went our from us because they were not of us is premature and presumptuous.
If this married couple has trusted in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, God will never leave them or forsake them. If they are having a problem with God's name or the name of Jesus, that is something that can be resolved and it does not mean that they have not been cleansed from their sin and do not have God's righteousness. If this issue has taken them away from your Dad's church, pray for them, believe the best and always remain their friend. This is something that happens within assemblies and to say they went our from us because they were not of us is premature and presumptuous.
CORRECTION!
....The word rendered "fall away" means properly "to fall near by anyone;" "to fall in with or meet;" and thus to fall aside from, to swerve or deviate from; and here means undoubtedly to "apostatize from," and implies an entire renunciation of Christianity, or a going back to a state of Judaism, paganism, or sin. The Greek word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It is material to remark here that the apostle does not say that any true Christian ever had fallen away.....
Barnes'
..................................................
It appears from this, whatever sentiment may gain or lose by it, that there is a fearful possibility of falling away from the grace of God; and if this scripture did not say so, there are many that do say so. And were there no scripture express on this subject, the nature of the present state of man, which is a state of probation or trial, must necessarily imply it. Let him who most assuredly standeth, take heed lest he fall.
To renew them again unto repentance - As repentance is the first step that a sinner must take in order to return to God, and as sorrow for sin must be useless in itself unless there be a proper sacrificial offering, these having rejected the only available sacrifice, their repentance for sin, had they any, would be nugatory, and their salvation impossible on this simple account; and this is the very reason which the apostle immediately subjoins: -
Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God - They reject him on the ground that he was an impostor, and justly put to death. And thus they are said to crucify him to themselves - to do that in their present apostasy which the Jews did; and they show thereby that, had they been present when he was crucified, they would have joined with his murderers.
from Clarke ("not Calvinist", believed one could lose their salvation, yet at times is unable to conclude one way or the other)
CORRECTION:
Ctrl C V error! apologies!
wrongly pasted, attributed Barne's to Clarke.
....The word rendered "fall away" means properly "to fall near by anyone;" "to fall in with or meet;" and thus to fall aside from, to swerve or deviate from; and here means undoubtedly to "apostatize from," and implies an entire renunciation of Christianity, or a going back to a state of Judaism, paganism, or sin. The Greek word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It is material to remark here that the apostle does not say that any true Christian ever had fallen away.....
Barnes'
..................................................
It appears from this, whatever sentiment may gain or lose by it, that there is a fearful possibility of falling away from the grace of God; and if this scripture did not say so, there are many that do say so. And were there no scripture express on this subject, the nature of the present state of man, which is a state of probation or trial, must necessarily imply it. Let him who most assuredly standeth, take heed lest he fall.
To renew them again unto repentance - As repentance is the first step that a sinner must take in order to return to God, and as sorrow for sin must be useless in itself unless there be a proper sacrificial offering, these having rejected the only available sacrifice, their repentance for sin, had they any, would be nugatory, and their salvation impossible on this simple account; and this is the very reason which the apostle immediately subjoins: -
Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God - They reject him on the ground that he was an impostor, and justly put to death. And thus they are said to crucify him to themselves - to do that in their present apostasy which the Jews did; and they show thereby that, had they been present when he was crucified, they would have joined with his murderers.
from Clarke ("not Calvinist", believed one could lose their salvation, yet at times is unable to conclude one way or the other)
CORRECTION:
Ctrl C V error! apologies!
wrongly pasted, attributed Barne's to Clarke.
One man’s perspective will say one thing and another man’s perspective will say another. If a person is in a certain place in his walk with God and all of a sudden God sheds some light that he has not seen before and steps out into that light and moves forward, sometimes by the ones who didn’t share the same revelation, and by not understanding, accuse the one of walking away from the truth.
Only because one grows in Christ doesn’t mean the one who moves on is in the wrong, it means he has taken a step that the other is not willing to take. Usually laws for tradition will hold and accuse the other of blaspheme, and being out of the will of God or various accusations.
Jesus was accused of this very thing by those who were not willing to move into the realm he was at. To these even Jesus was a blasphemer, called the son of his father the devil. Perhaps these who has moved on has a revelation that the others do not see? Doesn’t mean they are wrong it means perhaps some just don’t understand.
Only because one grows in Christ doesn’t mean the one who moves on is in the wrong, it means he has taken a step that the other is not willing to take. Usually laws for tradition will hold and accuse the other of blaspheme, and being out of the will of God or various accusations.
Jesus was accused of this very thing by those who were not willing to move into the realm he was at. To these even Jesus was a blasphemer, called the son of his father the devil. Perhaps these who has moved on has a revelation that the others do not see? Doesn’t mean they are wrong it means perhaps some just don’t understand.
I believe both (not in this case necessarily), I believe one can be truly saved, and fall away. I also believe that some that you think were or are saved are really false converts.
As far as this case goes it could be either or. Either way the ''Hebrew Movement'' they have falling into is a very dangerous cult, called the sacred name cult. They believe unless you call the Father Yahuwah, and Jesus Yeshuah you are not saved. That teach that when Peter said there is only one name by which a man can be saved it was Yeshuah, and that no one can be saved by calling on ''Jesus''.
They go as far as to says Jesus means hail- Zuez
As far as this case goes it could be either or. Either way the ''Hebrew Movement'' they have falling into is a very dangerous cult, called the sacred name cult. They believe unless you call the Father Yahuwah, and Jesus Yeshuah you are not saved. That teach that when Peter said there is only one name by which a man can be saved it was Yeshuah, and that no one can be saved by calling on ''Jesus''.
They go as far as to says Jesus means hail- Zuez