Question about Jesus being the Son of God

[7seasrekeyed]

While true, I don't always refuse the identity. In fact, when I first came into this forum I did select the term Christian, because of not having the ability to identify as Messianic Jewish. But as stepped more into this thread yesterday the differences finally started reaching my nostrils again. As much as I want to come along side our commonality of faith in Jesus it's continually sidelined by all the replacement theology embedded into your beliefs. It's like being a gay man while standing in a group of straight men. They try to identify as a person like all the rest but the culture and learned dogma's expose the division between the two.

I'm a believer, we can identify together on the very basics, and that's cool! But, when the details come out, then the devil gets going it seems. So, in general I can handle being called a Christian by those who are not dogmatically bent. But when Christians like Ed start trying to correlate my identity with their church beliefs I have to distance myself from the identity. I do not hold to the teachings of the church fathers at all. I find them grossly anti-Semitic and devoid of the teachings of the Spirit of God. Yet, even still God can and is working through those within the church to reach them. Grace and mercy is foremost. And even more, some of them did have very good things to say about our faith. But in general it seems the veil was not completely torn, only transferred to others. <<sarcasm

I don't shutter at the label, I shutter at the redefinition's and actions of those who hold the banner. And since I am Jewish with my roots in the good soil of Israel whom the Lord God has formed and intends to prosper dispite our enemies, I whole-heartedly embrace the identity of my fathers. Without pause or reservation. I am fully content in my faith walk with the God of Israel and our Messiah Yeshua.

there are people in this forum that are a part of the community that believes that God is done with anything Jewish and especially the people so named. I certainly do not believe it nor see such in scripture. and others here are also adamantly against such a conclusion

well, if it's any comfort, Christians have a difficult time coming to agreement period. that would be an interesting discussion...but the reasons behind that would find many ultimately too disturbed to deal with it

sometimes those who are the loudest in their objections illustrate that if they viewed their own posts as a stranger, they would also object vividly to those as well. it's scary no worries. the church is not our Savior and our Savior has a body He calls the church.
each part of a body has a function. is it possible some of the body needs a doctor?

amen with regards to God's creation AND restoration of Israel

all can and should certainly agree with that

I could say so much here with regards to the ways Jews have been treated...such as 'if God loved them all so much, why did he allow the extermination of so many?' this is people looking at events through the filter of their own definition of love and not God's allowance of even those He loves to be killed in such a horrible fashion

much like the suffering of Christians in China and so on. while well fed people here act as if this is the only part of the world that has God's blessing because of material wealth and full stomachs

yet this is what the Lord God states:

10 When you have eaten and are satisfied, praise the Lord your God for the good land he has given you. 11 Be careful that you do not forget the Lord your God, failing to observe his commands, his laws and his decrees that I am giving you this day. 12 Otherwise, when you eat and are satisfied, when you build fine houses and settle down, 13 and when your herds and flocks grow large and your silver and gold increase and all you have is multiplied, 14 then your heart will become proud and you will forget the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Deuteronomy 8

all of Deuteronomy is good reading with regards to human nature

I am not American, Christian Americans like to point out this nation was founded on Christian principals

Israel was founded and instructed by God

any similarities?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

So your here saying you changed your "Christian" status yesterday after encountering and discussing with me because I remind you of all the things you hate?

Seriously?

That's is offensive. Seriously offensive!

Christ saved me... I'm sorry your so bothered by that..

seriously?

why are you taking this personal?

I am not defending walkingtree so much as I can see he is being accused of things he did not say nor did he intend

honestly at this point I would like to say 'get over yourself' and I don't mean it in a rude way

people are not seeing what he is saying because they are too busy defending their own prejudices...not beliefs...

believe me, God can take whatever you (generic) can throw at Him

no one has it all correct and frankly, I prefer to refer to myself as 'A BELIEVER IN JESUS' because I, personally, do not like all the
associations with the name Christian either

man if you guys could just go back in time with the first Christians...as you believe now...there would not be a one of them you would not call a heretic

I have nothing against you but I guess I could say you can also call me offensive since I don't use Christian either and for much the same reasons. however I will also identify with Christian if the understanding of Christian is correct...otherwise I will state emphatically that I do not believe what some who identify with a word they do not even understand will say a Christian is

I will explain what I hope and pray is a reasonable and biblically based understanding of Christian

 

[Hazelelponi]

seriously?

why are you taking this personal?

I am not defending walkingtree so much as I can see he is being accused of things he did not say nor did he intend

honestly at this point I would like to say 'get over yourself' and I don't mean it in a rude way

people are not seeing what he is saying because they are too busy defending their own prejudices...not beliefs...

believe me, God can take whatever you (generic) can throw at Him

no one has it all correct and frankly, I prefer to refer to myself as 'A BELIEVER IN JESUS' because I, personally, do not like all the
associations with the name Christian either

man if you guys could just go back in time with the first Christians...as you believe now...there would not be a one of them you would not call a heretic

I have nothing against you but I guess I could say you can also call me offensive since I don't use Christian either and for much the same reasons. however I will also identify with Christian if the understanding of Christian is correct...otherwise I will state emphatically that I do not believe what some who identify with a word they do not even understand will say a Christian is

I will explain what I hope and pray is a reasonable and biblically based understanding of Christian

I never accused the person of anything, all I ever did was to try and figure out what he was saying..

THEN I was insulted.

I've been Christian less than 5 years.. so all this is stupid.

I remind him of all the things he hates. Great.

I absolutely have a really good idea why..

 

[Smooth]

Jesus, as the Son of man was created from the coruptibed seed in herited from his mother. typified as sinful . The wrath of God being reveled a aging, suffering dying creation. .

God is not a man as us and niether is there a fleshly mediator to stand between God not seen and man seen as a infallible interpreter..

Salvation is not reckoned after by the flesh of Jesus. he dsaid it profits for nothing. We walk by faith the unseen eternal.

If that was true as after the flesh a person would be declaring to be the Son of man, Jesus with power, according to the flesh of holiness, by the his birth. Then we could exalt Mary as queen of heaven : turning things upside down. Son of man according to the flesh or Son of God according to the unseen Spirit.?.

Romans 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Salvation is not reckoned after by the flesh of Jesus. Again...If that was true a person would be declaring to be the Son of man with power, according to the flesh of holiness, by the his birth. Then we could exalt Mary as queen of heaven : turning things upside down

Romans 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

No such thing as holiness of the flesh. Now you see it then never again...

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.2 Corinthians 5:16

Sorry; the first four paragraphs are confusing.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I never accused the person of anything, all I ever did was to try and figure out what he was saying..

THEN I was insulted.

I've been Christian less than 5 years.. so all this is stupid.

I remind him of all the things he hates. Great.

I absolutely have a really good idea why..

I would like think you may have got caught up in the general stone flinging without meaning to do so
'
I would also like to think you may have a more reasonsable POV after some reflection

if you have been a Christian for 5 years why do you think that somehow commits to 'all this is stupid'

I have no idea what you mean by that

no one has insulted you here. possibly the other way around but I will put that towards the general tone taken in this thread

the popular opinion does not necessairly mean it is true or justified

one big problem in this forum is taking things personally. I understand that as I used to do that myself

it is unproductive and offers nothing of instruction but plenty about bias and often misunderstanding what the other person is saying

 

[kaylagrl]

Wondering if you see the irony of this statement? Every man is formed in the womb of a woman. This is where the creation of mankind exists. When has any person existed that has NOT been created? And how do you believe Jesus' human body came into being? If not created in the womb of a woman? A human born of a woman is not a creation of God?

Because He existed before His birth. He was with God in the beginning. "Let US make man"... He didn't just pop on the scene.

 

[Smooth]

Other people can discuss with walkingtree or whatever his name is.

I'm out.. absolutely out. I was nothing but kind and did nothing besides try and have a discussion that this person instigated with me..

Happy people share happiness. The only time happy people do not share happiness is when righteous indignation comes into play. That however is not the case with the individual of whom you speak.

 

[Smooth]

Because He existed before His birth. He was with God in the beginning. "Let US make man"... He didn't just pop on the scene.

So good it needs to be posted again. ❤️

 

[Hazelelponi]

I would like think you may have got caught up in the general stone flinging without meaning to do so
'
I would also like to think you may have a more reasonsable POV after some reflection

if you have been a Christian for 5 years why do you think that somehow commits to 'all this is stupid'

I have no idea what you mean by that

no one has insulted you here. possibly the other way around but I will put that towards the general tone taken in this thread

the popular opinion does not necessairly mean it is true or justified

one big problem in this forum is taking things personally. I understand that as I used to do that myself

it is unproductive and offers nothing of instruction but plenty about bias and often misunderstanding what the other person is saying

Look, as I replied to a different poster this person walkingtree or whatever name quoted my post, and began a discussion.

I tried having that discussion until it seemed to me I was misunderstanding his position, at which time I attempted to clarify what his position was, exactly.

This only seemed to be the incorrect thing tto do, because it led to this.

If someone engages with me, I expect them to clarify their position, and speak to me as respectfully and with love as I do them.

I don't expect the run around, and then insults..

Its clear he and I cannot have a discussion. Clear as day. I tried my best, it doesn't work.

please stop quoting me.

 

[kaylagrl]

So good it needs to be posted again. ❤️

Lol thanks that doesn't happen to me often

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Look, as I replied to a different poster this person walkingtree or whatever name quoted my post, and began a discussion.

I tried having that discussion until it seemed to me I was misunderstanding his position, at which time I attempted to clarify what his position was, exactly.

This only seemed to be the incorrect thing tto do, because it led to this.

If someone engages with me, I expect them to clarify their position, and speak to me as respectfully and with love as I do them.

I don't expect the run around, and then insults..

Its clear he and I cannot have a discussion. Clear as day. I tried my best, it doesn't work.

please stop quoting me.

I maintain what I said previously

you badly misrepresented him

as did several others here

I do not feel constrained to stop quoting anyone as that is not against forum rules

however feel free to disengage from me as you did with walking tree. I will not be insulted by that decision

but you didn't respond to the remark you made concerning why you think something is stupid here while stating you have only been saved 5 years

 

[kaylagrl]

Your projection is duly noted. I was already done addressing your futile attempts at discussion.

Do you identify as catholic?

"Jesus was born of Mary but He was not created. "

Where does this crazy teaching come from?

All I've ever tried to question here is how a person, a human, is not created in the womb of a woman. Is this another catholic belief like the bread and wine actually being the body and blood of Christ?

Answer... the Bible.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Answer... the Bible.

which part?

sure the Bible, but even some Christians have difficulty with aspects of what they believe

we are speaking to a Messianic believer in Christ who does not believe or possibly understand some things

I have really been trying to get people to understand his POV and off the cuff answers are not going to suffice with someone
who exhibits the capacity for rational thought



nothing personal

 

[Hazelelponi]

I maintain what I said previously

you badly misrepresented him

as did several others here

I do not feel constrained to stop quoting anyone as that is not against forum rules

however feel free to disengage from me as you did with walking tree. I will not be insulted by that decision

but you didn't respond to the remark you made concerning why you think something is stupid here while stating you have only been saved 5 years

It's stupid... the whole thing is stupid.

We are supposed to see Christ in one another.. not race. We are supposed to speak to one another as brothers and sisters in Christ.

I did.

I did.

I did.

Yet, race is all that supposedly matters?

I'm the one that's wrong somehow?

really?

I'll just stay away, since my presence is offensive...

 

[kaylagrl]

which part?

sure the Bible, but even some Christians have difficulty with aspects of what they believe

we are speaking to a Messianic believer in Christ who does not believe or possibly understand some things

I have really been trying to get people to understand his POV and off the cuff answers are not going to suffice with someone
who exhibits the capacity for rational thought



nothing personal

Yes,I'm just reading your responses and catching up now...

 

[Smooth]

Answer... the Bible.

Exactly.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

It's stupid... the whole thing is stupid.

We are supposed to see Christ in one another.. not race. We are supposed to speak to one another as brothers and sisters in Christ.

I did.

I did.

I did.

Yet, race is all that supposedly matters?

I'm the one that's wrong somehow?

really?

ok...thanks for answering...it's the BDF after all

you know, I have been saved so long somtimes I wish I could start over because I have far from always exemplified my Savior

I wish you would hear me. he is not doing what you have somehow come to understand about him

I have a different point of view here because I grew up with many Jewish people around me and also attended a Messianic congregation and this is how Jewish people often perceive Christians

Jews have been accused of killing Christ and Gentiles have in some way tried to exonerate themselves when the Bible clearly states that EVERYONE is as universally guilty of sin as the worst sinner...see the 10 commandments

you might get angry at me with this next statement, but is this really a matter of you somehow being accused of being wrong?

I don't think it is. you are simply being defensive but really it is not accomplishing anything when someone simply is trying to be understood

again, I do wish you would see this as not a personal insult or attack but rather as an attempt at clarification

when I was younger, I could certainly get worked up and emotional about thinking people were attacking Christ or Christianity

but alot of experience has shown me otherwise. there are people who come here just to mock or argue and they often go as quick as they come in

please try. thanks

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Yes,I'm just reading your responses and catching up now...

thx Kayla

I know you are an avid supporter of Israel and have good common sense

thx for understanding what I was saying...taking the time to do so

 

[WalkingTree]

Because He existed before His birth. He was with God in the beginning. "Let US make man"... He didn't just pop on the scene.

When you say He you mean the person, fleshly man of Jesus Christ? The one born of a virgin, who lived as a Jew, and was seen as the King of the Jews?

His body existed before his birth? We are talking about a person, right? Not a spirit god? This person existed before his birth? I wonder if you can see from the outside how the trinity doctrine has effected your rationality.

His body existed before his birth? His body was with God in the beginning? When God said let us make man, and created Adam, he also created a body for Jesus? Because hey, he didn't just pop on the scene, and this is what the trinity teaches about personage of the son.

Yes, he is more than his body, for sure. But it's a package you know. In order to accomplish what he was to do he had to 'become like us' in every way. Except he was without sin. He did not die because of sin. He laid his life down. For a specific purpose.

He was the Son of Man as much as he was the Son of God.

<here is where I start talking in general, not to anyone specific...

See, this last statement to me shows that I agree with those who are misunderstanding me here. He is the Son of God, The Spirit of God in the flesh. All authority is given to him. I AGREE, without using the trinity if that's o.k., it's not in the bible anyway. It's a formulated doctrine of the early church. But that's o.k too... just don't use it against others.

Why do so many Christians here desire to argue this with me? The only reason I can perceive is the church doctrines you have been taught and believe. Like the trinity. It's just fine for you to formulate your own understanding of how God looks and operates. We are all on our own walk with the creator. But what is happening here is many are not allowing me to express my perspective without correcting me because I do not hold their view. You want us on the same page, as long as it's your page. You want us on the same tree but you refuse to acknowledge the uniqueness of the branches. I think wild olives are awesome, especially when they are tapped into the native tree. The fruit a grafted in branch produces is complementary to the natural fruits, not opposed. It doesn't overpower or seek to remove the other branches. Sadly, this was the mindset of the early church in regards to Jews. But what happens when the times of the gentiles come to an end? A Jewish revival that's what. So if there was a message I want to convey it's that Christians need to embrace Israel instead of reject and replace her. When you do this you not only will see the redemption of Israel, you will see your own redemption as well. The Jews will only come to Messiah when you woo them to Him. And when you do, all the world will see the salvation of God.

See, I don't seek to find divisions between us, because these are what the enemy has woven into our relationships for 2000 yrs. I know through the Spirit and the word of God that our reconciliations are mutual. We are tied together in this. Christians will not see Messiah again until Israel falls in love with Yeshua. Think about it. According to scripture. The restoration of Israel is directly tied to the second coming of our Messiah. And the enemy has convinced many souls to fight against this, in the name of Jesus even.

There, my heart is bare. If there is a motive for my speaking it is this. My hearts desire. I want to see the world, Jew and Gentile reconciled to God. And I believe the enemy has woven lies within the church the same way he used the law against us Jews.

Wow, when I first asked a question about the understanding of the Son of God I never thought it would turn here. Yet, God is good. This wasn't supposed to be about 'me'. But I guess i'm the odd one out here, as usual. a Jew in a Christian forum... Just thought we could share our commonalities as much as our differences. Hey! there's a novel idea!

(if anyone would like to answer or respond to any of my questions above, please do so with the intent of coming along side me instead of correction. It will serve a much better purpose than righteous indignation, as I've been told)

 

[WalkingTree]

thx Kayla

I know you are an avid supporter of Israel and have good common sense

thx for understanding what I was saying...taking the time to do so

She might also take the time to see that she has liked more than a few of my previous posts in this forum.