Questions about JW’s

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Webers.Home

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The Watchtower Society will never accept classical Christianity's teaching
that Jesus Christ is Jehovah incognito simply because the Society's undying
premise is that it is impossible for someone to exist as a spirit being and a
human being simultaneously.

According to the premise: Jehovah's spirit existence would have to be
terminated before He could become a human existence; and I can easily
guarantee that nobody is ever going to convince the Society otherwise
unless they first prove that the Word of John 1:1-4 is impervious to death.

In other words; in order to prove to the Society that it's possible for a spirit
being to exist as a human being simultaneously, it is necessary to prove to
the Society that the Word is an everlasting life; which is a kind of life that
cannot die. Fortunately it's very easy to do because the apostle John did that
part for us in his first epistle.

1John 1:1-2 . .That which was from the beginning, which we have heard,
which we have seen with our eyes, which we have viewed attentively and
our hands felt, concerning the word of life, (yes, the life was made manifest,
and we have seen and are bearing witness and reporting to you the
everlasting life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us,)

The Greek word for "everlasting" in that passage is aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os)
which essentially means perpetual; viz: without interruption.

The Word's human existence as per John 1:14 was as a mortal life and thus
easily interrupted; but seeing as how the Word's spirit existence as per
1John 1:1-2 is an everlasting life, then it's impossible for the Word's spirit
existence to be interrupted.

Jehovah cannot interrupt His existence as God because Jehovah is an
everlasting life (Gen 21:33, Rom 16:26). In the same manner, the Word
cannot interrupt his existence as the Word because the Word is an
everlasting life too. (John 5:26, 1John 1:1-2)

The Word may have temporarily divested himself of his glory when he came
to the earth to live and die as a human being, but he did not, and could not,
divest himself of his spirit existence because in order to do that, he would
have to die; which is an impossibility for everlasting life. If that were not so,
then it would be possible to assassinate Jehovah. In point of fact, it would
even be possible for Jehovah to commit suicide.

NOTE: According to chapter 1, verse 1, of John's gospel, the Word is a god.
Well; seeing as how the Word is an everlasting life, then he's obviously an
everlasting god too; viz: the Watchtower Society's religion has two
everlasting gods in it, and both of those everlasting gods are credited with
the creation of the cosmos with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy.

Precisely how an immortal life can exist simultaneously as a mortal life is
one of the mysteries of classical Christianity that has to be taken on faith
rather than reason because the 3-pound lump of fatty, flabby organic tissue
housed in a man's bony little skull, and sufficing for a mind, is just too
limited to get it; and not even all three of those pounds are devoted to
cognitive processes.
_
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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My how times have changed. 30-40 years ago a JW or Mormon etc.....would not get their foot in the door of a Christian forum, unless they were seeking truth.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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My how times have changed. 30-40 years ago a JW or Mormon etc.....would not get their foot in the door of a Christian forum, unless they were seeking truth.

Sometimes when you corner, box in, and try to overpower by removing beliefs that do not align with the True Word of God, you empower those groups, because being attacked makes them feel like they are onto something true. Someone who is in a mental state of accepting half truths will many time grow stronger if they are being attacked for it. It's enough truth to hold onto and convince oneself. It's just not the TRUTH that God sent to us 2,000 years ago by His Gospel!
 
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My how times have changed. 30-40 years ago a JW or Mormon etc.....would not get their foot in the door of a Christian forum, unless they were seeking truth.


Also, if the Church has become worldly, what else do you expect?
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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Also, if the Church has become worldly, what else do you expect?
My statement was more directed at the church, than the cults. In the end it is the lack of mature believers that brings judgement.
 

Absolutely

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Anytime we read about GOD in the Bible, IT BEGINS with a CAPITAL Letter!

Let "us" and "our image" are both LOWER CASE!

This is NOT GOD and the Trinity!

even the BIBLE makes it clear how they use LOWER CASE!
Let me get this straight.

You are saying God did not create the earth and its living things in genesis???
 

Absolutely

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Webers.Home

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John 20:28 . . Thomas said to him: "My Lord and my God!"

"God" is from the Greek word theós (theh'-os).

Many moons ago; I asked some Watchtower Society missionaries to explain
to me why the Watchtower Society translated theós in upper case seeing as
how in their theology; only Jehovah should be referred to as a god spelled
with an upper case G. Well; they were too inexperienced to explain and my
question left them stumped.

The fact of the matter is: in John 20:28, theós is modified by the Greek
definite article "ho". So by the Society's own rules; its translators had to use
upper case because it's normally their practice that whenever theós is
modified by the Greek definite article, then the upper case is required.

But I don't recommend making an issue of the capitalization because skilled
Witnesses can easily dodge that bullet. Instead, focus the attention upon
Thomas' possessive pronoun because he didn't just declare that Jesus was a
god. No, he clearly declared that Jesus was "my" god. Here's what it looks
like in the Kingdom Interlinear:

"the god of me"

Thomas was a Jew; so his association with Jehovah began with Abraham
way back in the seventeenth chapter of Genesis. In a nutshell, God
voluntarily covenanted with Abraham's posterity to be their god. At that
time, Jehovah didn't say He'd be their only god; just their god, i.e. a god.

Centuries later, Abraham's posterity entered into a covenant with Jehovah in
the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. They accepted
that covenant voluntarily and under oath, i.e. of their own free will; which is
really important because it forbids them to possess more than one god. No
longer would Jehovah be a god to them; He would be their only god.

Ex 20:1-3 . . And God proceeded to speak all these words, saying: I am
Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of
the house of slaves. You must not have any other gods against my face.

"against my face" is a combination of two Hebrew words that essentially
refer to God's competitors. In other words: it is not Jehovah's wishes to
have a market share of His people's affections; no, He'll settle for nothing
less than 100%. (cf. Mark 12:28-30)

If the apostle Thomas was a Torah-trained Jew, then he was fully aware that
possessing a god along with Jehovah-- in effect possessing multiple gods
--would incur the covenant's curse upon himself.

Deut 27:26 . . Cursed is the one who will not put the words of this law in
force by doing them.

The way I see it: the Society has two options. Either the apostle Thomas
knew what he was doing when he addressed Jesus as his god, or he meant
to say something else.

Now, if the apostle Thomas knew what he was doing when he addressed
Jesus as his god, then the rank and file need to ask around and find out why
it is that Jesus Christ was the apostle Thomas' god but he isn't the
Watchtower Society's god.

Plus: I would really like to know how it is that the apostle Thomas and the
Watchtower Society are poles apart in their opinions of Christ's divine status
when Thomas actually associated with Jesus and was one of his close
personal friends.

BTW: In Matt 19;17, Mark 10:18, and Luke 18:19, Jesus objected when
somebody called him good. Well; if he would object to something as
elementary as that, then I think it's safe to assume that he would've
certainly objected to Thomas calling him "my god" if in fact Jesus were not
Thomas' god.

NOTE: According to John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, and 1Pet 2:22; Jesus
Christ committed no sins of his own; not even one, i.e. Jesus was
demonstrably good (and no doubt still is). That being the case, then Christ
has to be Jehovah in order to be in harmony with his response.

"Nobody is good, except one; God." (Mark 10:18)
_
 
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Let me get this straight.

You are saying God did not create the earth and its living things in genesis???



God, the WORD, did Create all things. But we know whenever it talks about God alone it ALWAYS begins in a Capital letter.

I am pointing out that God had already created Heaven and the Angels and His Holy Councils.

From there, it was Creating the Universe and Earth and life on Earth.

But the "let us," "our image," and "our likeness" is not the incorrect Trinity. It's LOWER CASE for a purpose for us READERS directly from the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Christ!

That indicates that God is not talking to those imaginary other beings in Heaven some think exist. It indicates God is speaking to His Holy Council like we see in Psalms 82. God is being a Gentleman (in our wording) here. He is going to Create us anyways, but politely is informing His Council!
 
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I love you biker

...but that church father deal has you invoking something past the bible.



Show me in the Bible when we know it is speaking of God it's not Capitalized?

It's always Capitalized in the Bible when referring to God, ALWAYS CAPPED!
 
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I love you biker

...but that church father deal has you invoking something past the bible.


I am Assemblies of God thru and thru, Baptized Matthew 28:19, have believed the Trinity my entire life.

And then this year, my 2nd year after rededicating my life to God after my father passed, my eyes just opened up. Scripture was alive for me once again. I began reading the Bible in a yearly format and taking notes. The first revelation was Mark 12, and from John 14:10 we know the Father was living inside Christ doing the Speaking/Miracles like Yeshua tells Phillip. Which means it was the Father who confirms to the Scribe in Mark 12 that God is One Person. The Father in Christ does not correct the Scribe but it states knew the Scribe answered WISELY!

So, I went back through my notes and I came to Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

I asked myself, where does this reflect in GOD said equaling one person at?

And I immediately saw it!
"us-our image-our likeness" is not Capitalized!

So I went to my Concordances and found every reference to GOD.
Read every Scripture related to God.
And discovered, when it directly refers to Almighty God in Heaven, it is 100% ALWAYS CAPITALIZED!

Which showed me why "us-our image-our likeness" is not Capitalized!
Because GOD is not speaking to GOD, God is speaking to His Council!
This, because any time the Bible is referring to God is ALWAYS CAPITALIZED, is solid proof this is not a reference to the Trinity, but confirms why the Father confirmed the Scribe claiming God is One Person!


I was completely floored!

What a revelation I received from God.
 

Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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John 20:17 . . Be on your way to my brothers and say to them; "I am
ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God."

FAQ: If Jesus is God, as classical Christianity claims, then how can he have a
God? Does God worship Himself?

A: I have yet to encounter the language of John 20:17 in reverse, viz: I
have yet to see a passage in the Bible where the Father refers to His son as
"my God". The reason for that is very simple: Jesus is a son.

Ex 20:12 . . Honor your father

John 8:49 . . Jesus answered: I honor my Father

There's a hierarchy in the divine relationship just as there is a hierarchy in
human relationships. Though all members of a human family are equally
human, they are not all equal in rank and privilege; some are superior and
some are subordinate. (cf. John 14:28, 1Cor 15:28)

The Watchtower Bible And Tract Society calls Jesus "the only-begotten son
from a Father" (John 1:14). Don't let that mislead you. The Society dare not
accept Christ's status as God's literal progeny because the ramifications
would force them to revise their theology.

The Society also calls Jesus "the only-begotten god" (John 1:18). Well; If
the true God were to beget a god, wouldn't that god be the true God like its
father?

For simplicity's sake; it helps to think of the true God as a species; viz: if
indeed the true God were to beget a child, He would beget a child of like
species; i.e. the true God would beget the true God, i.e. more of Himself,
because that's the only kind of offspring that the true God could possibly
engender; just as when a true human being begets a child, they beget a
child of like species i.e. they beget a true human being like themselves
because that's the only kind of offspring that a true human being can
engender.

Now, we can volley back and forth with JWs, countering each other's verses
with more verses: verse upon verse; but I can just about guarantee that us
and they will both be chasing our tails and getting nowhere until they agree
to approach the Son's relationship to his Father from a biological
perspective; which is a perspective that just about anybody with even a
cursory knowledge of the birds and the bees can understand with ease.

FAQ: How can the true God be two of Himself out there when even Jesus
plainly declared there is only one true God? (John 17:3)

A: The Bible also declares that there is only one Man. (Acts 17:26)

In the beginning, when God created the Man creature, He created it male
and female; i.e. two persons. But the two persons do not represent two
Mans. There is only one Man though the Man is a binary creature and can be
spoken of with a plural pronoun.

Gen 1:27. . And God proceeded to create the man in His image, in God’s
image He created him; male and female He created them.

Gen 5:2 . . Male and female He created them. After that He blessed them
and called their name Man in the day of their being created.

After God created Adam, he then proceeded to construct Eve from Adam's
body rather than create her from the soil as before. That way, Eve retained
Adam's humanness rather than be given a unique humanness of her own,
viz: Eve was in Adam, and he in her.

In a similar manner-- though no doubt quite a bit more complicated --God's
son is in God, and God is in His son. i.e. the Son extends the Father just as
Seth extended Adam: the difference being that Adam begot multiple sons,
whereas God has begotten only the one.
_
 

bluto

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Another way at looking at it. The Father has a more excellent name then the Son . But greater as position or power . Jesus is an apostle as a messenger sent of the father. Messenger and angel are one in the same . In that way we should be careful when sitting with a stranger even on this message board . Messenger, angel sent with the work of God. . apostles.

Many angels here
Umn, no garee, that is not another way to look at it. And no, we should not be careful when sitting with a stranger even on this message board, why would we have to be careful. This has "NOTHING" to do with subject at hand.

First of all the Hebrews word for angel is "malak." That word can mean an actual angel/messenger, it can also mean a human messenger like at Malachi 3:1. John the Baptist is described as the angel/messenger who will clear the way of the Lord. And John ain't no angel except maybe to his mother.

So an angel is a messenger but an angel is not a human by nature. A human is not an angel, but a human can be a messenger and not an angel. Even the human prophet "Malachi" is an angel/messenger. His name is derived from the word "malak." Jesus Christ who is identifed as the "angel of the Lord " is not an actual angel like the JW's here say that He is Michael, not true.

And another thing. God the Father did not send Jesus as the angel of the Lord. Jesus was sent by the Father in the New Testament as the Savior of the world. His purpose in the OT was that of a "mediator" and in the OT He was not inferior to the Father since He was God. It was the angel of the Lord who spoke to Moses from the burning bush and clearly identified Himself as God. Read all of Exodus 3.

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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I am Assemblies of God thru and thru, Baptized Matthew 28:19, have believed the Trinity my entire life.

And then this year, my 2nd year after rededicating my life to God after my father passed, my eyes just opened up. Scripture was alive for me once again. I began reading the Bible in a yearly format and taking notes. The first revelation was Mark 12, and from John 14:10 we know the Father was living inside Christ doing the Speaking/Miracles like Yeshua tells Phillip. Which means it was the Father who confirms to the Scribe in Mark 12 that God is One Person. The Father in Christ does not correct the Scribe but it states knew the Scribe answered WISELY!

So, I went back through my notes and I came to Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

I asked myself, where does this reflect in GOD said equaling one person at?

And I immediately saw it!
"us-our image-our likeness" is not Capitalized!

So I went to my Concordances and found every reference to GOD.
Read every Scripture related to God.
And discovered, when it directly refers to Almighty God in Heaven, it is 100% ALWAYS CAPITALIZED!

Which showed me why "us-our image-our likeness" is not Capitalized!
Because GOD is not speaking to GOD, God is speaking to His Council!
This, because any time the Bible is referring to God is ALWAYS CAPITALIZED, is solid proof this is not a reference to the Trinity, but confirms why the Father confirmed the Scribe claiming God is One Person!


I was completely floored!

What a revelation I received from God.
That seems to be the difficulty to those who walk by sight after what the eyes see and call seeking after signs and lying wonders And call it a gift. (Assemblies of God) Rather than walking by faith the unseen eternal . They do not mix faith by which we can rest from our works . and it becomes a work of self-righteousness. False gospel


That can be plainly seen in Acts 14 .when the faithless unbeliever saw what Paul did .Not seeing the hand of the gospel the father working in the person .It is that faith that came from hearing Christ spoken to by the apostles that causes him to raise and leap for Joy. The unbelievers accredited the power to the apostles and made them into gods in the likeness of corruptible men. Blasphemy. therefore making the power of the gospel to no effect.

Big difference between the likeness of God and the likeness of men, as a legion of gods.

(My addition)

Acts 14: 7-12 And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, . . . (Christ's faith working in him as it works in us so we who were lame from birth can walk by faith )

Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet.(God's word the gospel) And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,772
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Umn, no garee, that is not another way to look at it. And no, we should not be careful when sitting with a stranger even on this message board, why would we have to be careful. This has "NOTHING" to do with subject at hand.

First of all the Hebrews word for angel is "malak." That word can mean an actual angel/messenger, it can also mean a human messenger like at Malachi 3:1. John the Baptist is described as the angel/messenger who will clear the way of the Lord. And John ain't no angel except maybe to his mother.

So an angel is a messenger but an angel is not a human by nature. A human is not an angel, but a human can be a messenger and not an angel. Even the human prophet "Malachi" is an angel/messenger. His name is derived from the word "malak." Jesus Christ who is identifed as the "angel of the Lord " is not an actual angel like the JW's here say that He is Michael, not true.

And another thing. God the Father did not send Jesus as the angel of the Lord. Jesus was sent by the Father in the New Testament as the Savior of the world. His purpose in the OT was that of a "mediator" and in the OT He was not inferior to the Father since He was God. It was the angel of the Lord who spoke to Moses from the burning bush and clearly identified Himself as God. Read all of Exodus 3.

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
I would think there are apostles on this board sent of God.

Yes savior, messenger and High priest .

The message is not human by nature. Jesus the apostle prophet spoke the words of the father. God is not served by human hands as a will in that way .

And yes I agree Jesus was not inferior. The father is in a greater position but worked together as one, in perfect a harmony and submissiveness. In order to bring us the peace that does surpass human understanding. Like all apostles sent with words not of "one self".

Interestingly as it seem like many doctrines .He knew beforehand that men would try and give power to the apostles corrupted flesh and blood. One of the most misunderstood words I have experienced .

He has set aside a ceremonial law as a shadow using clean animals to represent the redeemed by the lamb, and unredeemed a Donkey to represent faithless mankind. In that sense using a unbeliever as a apostle to bring the power of the gospel . As a work of faith it worked to stop the madness of Balaam, a false prophet false apostle .Again to emphases he is not served by corrupted flesh and blood in any way shape or form .

Exodus 34:20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

Numbers 22:28 And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

The same way he opened the mouth of Jesus the apostle . The Father working in the Son giving the words . The lord rebuke you. . directed at the spirit of unbelief. as it is written .The Son of man had no power of his own .He did the will of the father .Powerful words spoken three times (as it is written) struck him out made him flee to the bottomless dugout . End of that series . you could say a supernatural fast ball, never saw it coming.. . you're out....

Mathew 4: 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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That seems to be the difficulty to those who walk by sight after what the eyes see and call seeking after signs and lying wonders And call it a gift. (Assemblies of God) Rather than walking by faith the unseen eternal . They do not mix faith by which we can rest from our works . and it becomes a work of self-righteousness. False gospel


That can be plainly seen in Acts 14 .when the faithless unbeliever saw what Paul did .Not seeing the hand of the gospel the father working in the person .It is that faith that came from hearing Christ spoken to by the apostles that causes him to raise and leap for Joy. The unbelievers accredited the power to the apostles and made them into gods in the likeness of corruptible men. Blasphemy. therefore making the power of the gospel to no effect.

Big difference between the likeness of God and the likeness of men, as a legion of gods.

(My addition)

Acts 14: 7-12 And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, . . . (Christ's faith working in him as it works in us so we who were lame from birth can walk by faith )

Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet.(God's word the gospel) And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.



I would put forth that God and His Angels are nothing like you and myself, but you and myself are to some degree like God and His Angels.

And as for myself being still connected to the Pentecostal Denomination of the AoG, I have definitely left that system and have found I much prefer Independent non Associated Churches. And even though I remain loyal to the "Core of Pentecostal" values, I have found great Knowledge being involved with Baptists, Methodists, Wesleyans, and several others. I will never propose that anyone has the "absolute full 100% Truths," but I will claim, they all definitely have "Godly Truths" within them.
 

NWL

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2012
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First of all I do have a life outside of Christian Chat and things to take care of. I will respond when I decide to do so, not when you want me to "jump" to your call. Now, I am not going to address Hebrews 2"8 because it's a distraction away from my question which you have yet to answer.

Since you teach that Jesus Christ is "a god" at John 1:1 according to the abomanation of the NWT why is He clearly identified as the creator of all things without exception at John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 by His own Father and at Revelation 3:14?

You added words to the Bible at John 1:1, "a god" and at Colossians 1:16 "all other things" which you cannot explain to me what these so-called other things are. You stated you have been a JW for 25 years. I've been dealing with you people for almost 58 years, along with the Mormons. I also have a pretty extensive library of extremely old JW materials including 78 rpm records you guys used for witnessing in the 1940's or so. I know all your tricks and I know you consider me "a goat like one."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Unless you acknowledge and address the points I raise we will go around in circles my friend as you will find I have answered all your points, you're either outright informing my reasoning or fail to grasp the things I say. You claim I cannot explain the issues you raise but I have done exactly that and have even posed you questions on these issue and you simply evade answering the questions. in regards to points you raise but.

Since you teach that Jesus Christ is "a god" at John 1:1 according to the abomination of the NWT why is He clearly identified as the creator of all things without exception at John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 by His own Father and at Revelation 3:14?
As I've already stated, Hebrews 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6 clearly express the Father created the world through Jesus, I even asked you what person of the trinity it was when it mentioned "God" in Hebrews 1:1, you failed to answer the question, if you did read the text and answer it you would have seen that it expresses the Father created the universe through Jesus, this is also what 1 Cor 8:6 states, as seen below.

(Heb 1:1,2) "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.."

(1 Cor 8:6) "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.."

John 1:3 and Col 1:16 both use Greek words that carry the connotations that things were created through Jesus, these Greek passive words along with others scripture, such as Heb 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6, show without a shadow of a doubt that things were created through Jesus as they verses clearly state.

What translation are you reading from that expresses Jesus is called creator by the Father in Rev 3:14, do you care to show me please?

THE ABOVE HAS ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION, the only thing that remains is you answering my questions.

In Hebrews 1:1-5, is the 'God' who is mentioned in v1 as having a Son ("his Son" v1), and being the 'Father' to this son in v5 ("
which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father") the first person of the trinity the Father?


[QUOTE]Now, I am not going to address Hebrews 2"8 because it's a distraction away from my question which you have yet to answer.
[/QUOTE]


Its not a distraction, for you to fully understand my point you need to answer the question. Again, you believe Jesus is the creator by John 1:3 and other passages because the definite phrases used, I order to show you why this is not the case I've asked you a question regarding Hebrews 2:8 and Col 1:18 as its a verse that uses a strong definite phrase in a similar fashion but does not include literally everything in the phrase in the verse. So if you could be so kind to answer the question you'll be aiding me in answering your question. Heres the question again:

I showed you Hebrews 2:8 that states 'God subjected all things under man, and left NOTHING NOT subject to him', and stated that using your reasoning that 'nothing' means absolutely 'nothing', does it mean that God and the angels were subjected to man? <----- Please answer. If not, then does 'nothing' here mean absolutely 'nothing'? <----- Please answer

When it states Jesus is "first in all things" in Col 1:18, does the "all things" literally mean 'all things', as in, 'every single thing'? <--- Please answer. If so, then is Jesus the first murder? <---- Please answer

I've been dealing with you people for almost 58 years, along with the Mormons. I also have a pretty extensive library of extremely old JW materials including 78 rpm records you guys used for witnessing in the 1940's or so. I know all your tricks and I know you consider me "a goat like one.
And yet you run away from the simplest of questions. It would take you no longer than a minute or two minutes maximum to answer all the questions I've asked, so whilst I appreciate you have a life outside this forum I'm not asking for much by asking you the questions. To me, it simply seems like you realize you'll be contradicting yourself by answering my basic questions and therefore make excuses not to answer them, I hope you prove me wrong.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
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Just a fair warning, if this thread turns into defending the heresies of the Jehova's Witness it will be closed and the offenders removed.
In order to not cross such a line, would you please enumerate and define everything which would fall under your personal definition of "heresies of the Jehova's Witness" (sic). There is a specific reason I am asking for such definition. Thank you.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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I would put forth that God and His Angels are nothing like you and myself, but you and myself are to some degree like God and His Angels.

And as for myself being still connected to the Pentecostal Denomination of the AoG, I have definitely left that system and have found I much prefer Independent non Associated Churches. And even though I remain loyal to the "Core of Pentecostal" values, I have found great Knowledge being involved with Baptists, Methodists, Wesleyans, and several others. I will never propose that anyone has the "absolute full 100% Truths," but I will claim, they all definitely have "Godly Truths" within them.
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Hi thanks for the reply. I can offer my opinion.

Sorry in advance for length. . the rambling.

The focus I believe is always on the "message understood" by the Spirit of Christ who dwells in these earthen bodies of death. Never the messenger. In that way we are the temple of God not built with human hands. But built with words or messages of the Spirit.

Angels as messengers . They have no will of their own. In that way they spirits of truth not subject to salvation. But truth that long to look into salvation the peace of God that surpasses our limited understanding. .

Jesus had the same kind of earthen body, same power within. Yet he was without sin. He as a apostle did not perform the deeds of the flesh but gave glory to God as a two fold work, working as one.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The messages can come after different manners. Messages as words do not have DNA or a personality other than that from the one who sends. . . who does live in the believer. .

Like for instance the message from a book shows the Spirit of Christ working in a person opening their eyes and ears to receive the understanding from within. .

Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Again the angel is the message received under the power of the Holy Spirit from within .Not a separate entity with a will of its own . We have the armor of God . With it we defend the faith that comes from hearing God .some might call that hearing of faith personal angels.

His word is Spirit and life giving.

During the parable below. I think it gives a different kind of demonstration than the cross . Both demonstrations give us the understanding. the one below is shown at the beginning of the three days and nights in the heart of the earth .

The propmised demonstration .The father pouring out the wrath striking the Son and Jesus in perfect submission cries out for strength to finish three times. . When the angel or message was sent it was the work of the father working in Jesus to both will and do the good pleasure of God .

Not a separate entity .No third party .

Rather than there appeared an DNA angel. Jesus heard the voice of the father not another entity strengthened Jesus who was powerless by his own self.

Luke 22:42-44 King James Version (KJV)4 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

In the above parable we can view the gospel unseen understanding. Using sweat a metaphor to indicate the unseen work of the two "as if it was blood" . Although the life of the flesh is in the blood that life is spirit life. the power of life that strengthened the Son so they as one could supply the peace of God that does surpass our limited understanding.

Ultimately the Holy Spirit is the messenger. he can use different manner . a book or us as sons of God as that which we are not revealed what we will be, he can use flesh and blood but it is never the source for hearing our father who dwells with.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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1Cor 15:45a . . The first man Adam became a living soul.

That verse refers to Gen 2:7, which reads like this:

"Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and
to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living
soul."

The Watchtower Society alleges that Jehovah God wasn't directly involved in
creating the first man, rather, His involvement was indirect. According to
them, the actual work was done by the hand of a divine being called the
Word.

"In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was a god. This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into
existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into
existence. What has come into existence by means of him was life" (John
1:1-4)

Seeing as how that's the case; then the breath of life spoken of in Gen 2:7
was blown into the first man's nostrils by the Word. In all respects then, we
owe the beginning of the first human race to the Word just as much as we
owe it to Jehovah God because the Bible gives both credit for its existence.

1Cor 15:45b . .The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Christ is not only the last of the human race as we know it, but also the
founder of a new human race about which we know comparatively very little.

1Cor 15:47 . . .The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the
second man is out of heaven.

But before proceeding, I think it very important that we nail down the
meaning of "became a life-giving spirit".

The phrase is not much different in reverse than forward, viz: a life-giving
spirit became the last Adam. (John 1:1-4 and John 1:14)

In other words: Adam's existence began by the hand of the Word, whereas
Christ's came into existence as the Word.

The thing is: when the Word came into the world as a human being, he
didn't relinquish his existence as a spirit being, viz: the creator-god spoken
of in Gen 1:1 and John 1:1 remained the creator-god and that's simply
because it is impossible for a real god to cease existing as a god-- a real god
is immortal, i.e. it's eternal, viz: a real god always was, always is, and
always shall be.

The Watchtower Society does not believe it's possible for a spirit being to
exist simultaneously as an organic being, but the Bible totally disagrees.

According to John 5:26 and 1John 1:1-4, the Word is an everlasting life
which, according to Gen 21:33 and Rom 16:26, is an indestructible category
of life that's impervious to death. So the Word didn't go out of existence
when he came into the world as an organic being; which means of course
that Jesus Christ was an organic being and a life-giving spirit simultaneously
right from the moment of his conception.

John 6:38 . . I have come down from heaven

John 6:42 . . They began saying: Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph,
whose father and mother we know? How is it that now he says: I have come
down from heaven?

The dual nature of Christ's existence is a fatal hang-up for the Watchtower
Society due to its spurious belief that it's impossible for the Word to exist as
a human being and a spirit being simultaneously. But the evidence is very
difficult to refute.
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