Questions about JW’s

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garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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Unless you acknowledge and address the points I raise we will go around in circles my friend as you will find I have answered all your points, you're either outright informing my reasoning or fail to grasp the things I say. You claim I cannot explain the issues you raise but I have done exactly that and have even posed you questions on these issue and you simply evade answering the questions. in regards to points you raise but.

As I've already stated, Hebrews 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6 clearly express the Father created the world through Jesus, I even asked you what person of the trinity it was when it mentioned "God" in Hebrews 1:1, you failed to answer the question, if you did read the text and answer it you would have seen that it expresses the Father created the universe through Jesus, this is also what 1 Cor 8:6 states, as seen below.

(Heb 1:1,2) "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.."

(1 Cor 8:6) "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.."

John 1:3 and Col 1:16 both use Greek words that carry the connotations that things were created through Jesus, these Greek passive words along with others scripture, such as Heb 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6, show without a shadow of a doubt that things were created through Jesus as they verses clearly state.

What translation are you reading from that expresses Jesus is called creator by the Father in Rev 3:14, do you care to show me please?

THE ABOVE HAS ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION, the only thing that remains is you answering my questions.

In Hebrews 1:1-5, is the 'God' who is mentioned in v1 as having a Son ("his Son" v1), and being the 'Father' to this son in v5 ("
which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father") the first person of the trinity the Father?


[QUOTE]

Simple question why the change in the JW law who quote Genesis 9:4. The law of blood issues?

It would seem both the Catholics and the JW's refuse to mix faith the unseen will of god hid in parables .we are to compare the spirutl unseen understanding to the same. why compare the literal blood seen to the same and call that mixing faith

Catholiscim supposes something is changed into the literal the JW's refuse. When it comes to the parable of drinking the blood of men, both kind of disciples leave in unbelief not interpreting the parable, which does reveal the gospel .

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

John 6:64-66 But there are some of you that
believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

To drink or not to drink? or simply look for the unseen understanding hid in the parable .
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,621
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Unless you acknowledge and address the points I raise we will go around in circles my friend as you will find I have answered all your points, you're either outright informing my reasoning or fail to grasp the things I say. You claim I cannot explain the issues you raise but I have done exactly that and have even posed you questions on these issue and you simply evade answering the questions. in regards to points you raise but.



As I've already stated, Hebrews 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6 clearly express the Father created the world through Jesus, I even asked you what person of the trinity it was when it mentioned "God" in Hebrews 1:1, you failed to answer the question, if you did read the text and answer it you would have seen that it expresses the Father created the universe through Jesus, this is also what 1 Cor 8:6 states, as seen below.

(Heb 1:1,2) "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.."

(1 Cor 8:6) "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.."

John 1:3 and Col 1:16 both use Greek words that carry the connotations that things were created through Jesus, these Greek passive words along with others scripture, such as Heb 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6, show without a shadow of a doubt that things were created through Jesus as they verses clearly state.

What translation are you reading from that expresses Jesus is called creator by the Father in Rev 3:14, do you care to show me please?

THE ABOVE HAS ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION, the only thing that remains is you answering my questions.

In Hebrews 1:1-5, is the 'God' who is mentioned in v1 as having a Son ("his Son" v1), and being the 'Father' to this son in v5 ("
which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father") the first person of the trinity the Father?


Your know what's ironic NWL? Your making a issue out of two prepositions, "by" and "through" to convince us that these two words from your point of view means that the Father just used Jesus has a helper so Jesus Christ could not be God Himself.

Not to mention that in your theology Jesus was already inferior to His Father because you "deemed" Him a god at John 1:1. Now, you quoted Hebrews 1:1-5 and made an issue out of vs2, the part that says, "whom He appointed heir of all things, THROUGH whom also He made the world."

You then failed to exegete Hebrews 1:3. It starts out with the word "And." The word "and" is a conjuction which "adds one thing to another." So what did the writer of Hebrews add in vs3? He said, "And He/Jesus Christ is the radiance of His/God the Father's glory and the EXACT representation of His/God the Father's nature/person, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."

The Greek word "hypostasis" used here not only means "nature" or "person" it means the "substancial quality, nature, or a person or thing. So the writer of Hebrews is saying tha the Son of God Jesus Christ has the same nature of His Father who is of course God. This makes complete sense because a son always bears the same nature as his father.

Jesus Christ did not have a biological Father, His Father was deity. So Jesus was deity/God on His Father's side and human as the Son of Man on His mother's side. This is also why John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Christians are "adopted" sons of God and none of us Christians are the one and only Son of God. When one becomes a Christian He receives God's nature but we do not have the attributes that make us the one and only God. Because of Hebrews 1:3 it follows that Jesus (at vs4) would have a much bertter name than the angels. And this is why at vs5 Jesus are not called THEE" sons of God. And this is why at vs6 God the Father says the angels are suppose to worship Jesus, including the angel Michael. (At least Charles Rusself got this right, until some new revelation light changed his mind".

This is also why at Hebrews 1:10 the Father says, "Lord/that is Jesus Christ, in the beginning did lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the words of Thy hands." In perfect harmony with Isaiah 44:24 where God said He did it "All alone" and "By Himself." There is no way you can get yourself out of the dilema you and your organization put yourselves in.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
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Just a fair warning, if this thread turns into defending the heresies of the Jehova's Witness it will be closed and the offenders removed.
Since you did not respond to my previous question (Link), I will ask a secondary one, to see if I understand your position correctly.

What if I stated that Jesus (the Son of the Father) is an "angel", and proceeded to defend that position, which would seem to be in agreement with the WTS/JW position, even though I would disagree with how the WTS defines the word, and do not take their final position?
 

Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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Many of the Jehovah's Witness missionaries going door-to-door throughout
the world are honestly, and sincerely, wanting to enter the kingdom of God;
which is why I'm convinced that Christians really ought to know something
about New Testament hope before engaging JWs in a conversation about the
kingdom.

1Pet 3:15 . . Always be ready to make a defense before everyone that
demands of you a reason for the hope in you,

The New Testament Greek word for "hope" in Peter's instructions is elpis (el
pece') which means to anticipate (usually with pleasure) and to expect with
confidence. Note the elements of anticipation, and expectation, and
confidence.

In other words: elpis hope is a know-so hope rather than a cross your
fingers hope.

So, unless someone knows for proof-positive, beyond even the slightest
glimmer of sensible doubt, that they have a passport to the kingdom of God
locked in and irrevocable, then of course it is impossible for them to comply
with Peter's instructions seeing as they would not yet have the kind of hope
about which he wrote.

Rom 12:12 . . Rejoice in the hope.

When people are praying for the best, while in the back of their mind
dreading the worst, they have absolutely no cause for rejoicing; but they do
have plenty of cause to fear the unknown.

Elpis hope is one of the three principal elements of Christianity (1Cor
13:13). It's also a calling. (Eph 4:4)

When people are lacking the kind of hope described by the Greek word elpis,
then I believe it's safe to assume that they have not yet responded to God's
call; or worse, He has not called them; and quite possibly never will.
_
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
2,800
596
113
Unless you acknowledge and address the points I raise we will go around in circles my friend as you will find I have answered all your points, you're either outright informing my reasoning or fail to grasp the things I say. You claim I cannot explain the issues you raise but I have done exactly that and have even posed you questions on these issue and you simply evade answering the questions. in regards to points you raise but.



As I've already stated, Hebrews 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6 clearly express the Father created the world through Jesus, I even asked you what person of the trinity it was when it mentioned "God" in Hebrews 1:1, you failed to answer the question, if you did read the text and answer it you would have seen that it expresses the Father created the universe through Jesus, this is also what 1 Cor 8:6 states, as seen below.

(Heb 1:1,2) "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.."

(1 Cor 8:6) "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.."

John 1:3 and Col 1:16 both use Greek words that carry the connotations that things were created through Jesus, these Greek passive words along with others scripture, such as Heb 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6, show without a shadow of a doubt that things were created through Jesus as they verses clearly state.

Learn well of what the context is.
1.Yes, God the Father is being spoken of in Hebrews 1:1 as he spoke in the time past in diver manners unto the fathers by the prophets. The prophet being the mouthpiece of God.
2. Heb.1:2 is saying that the Son has spoken about his Father and not vice versa who is the subject. You have put the Father as the subject but the verse says it’s the Son who was in reference in that he revealed the Father just as the prophets of old did reveal God. Jesus being the crown of revelation has spoken during his earthly ministry about his Father
3. Who is this Son in Hebrews 1:2? Accordingly, “…by whom also he made the worlds;”.

So the moot of the matter here is the translation of the Greek dia whether “through” or “by” which will made the difference and I will contend in favor of “by” is the true translation in this passage and the other passages mentioned where Christ is being spoken of.
Difference:
  • By using the Greek dia in the English as “through” then obviously, the Son serves only as an instrument cause used by the Father in the creation or as Winer says of dia as “…it marks the instrument” or “a medium of accomplishment” Ref. A Greek Grammar of the New Testament p. 143
  • By using the Greek dia in the English as “by” simply means Jesus is Creator of the created worlds. Greek Grammarian Robertson stated that the Greek dia though “through” is a common one it’s not the absolute ‘original meaning’.
Justifications in favor of ‘By”

The Bible declared it that Jesus is the Creator and not a helpmate, instrumentality or agency something that passed through. According to Winer p.137, John 1:3 has the peculiarity with Hebrews 1:2 and referring to Christ as the Creator and not only the instrument or passing of God’s in his own creative act so that God the Father had used him. Greek Grammarian Robertson in his Greek Grammar contend that “through” is not the original meaning of the Greek dia. P.630. This is understandable since early English Versions translated the Greek dia in those passage mentioned (Heb. 1:2; John 1:3, Col. 1:16 and1 Corinthians 8:6). Wclyffe of 1382, Tyndale (1534), Coverdale(1535), Matthews Bible (1537), The Great bible of 1539, The Geneva, the KJV 1611 and others have translated dia as ‘by’ and not ‘through’ in a modern sense. Actually, the earlier meaning of the “dia” if it is translated as in the English word ‘through’ means by the action of (The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary Vol 2. and not by which is something that passed between, hence, Christ is not in immediate rank but rather and intermediate, equal to the God the Father as the Creator.

The Gothic Bible translated from copies of the Greek in the 4th Ce have referred to the Greek dia as “by means of” with names. Exactly, Christ is the means, by which the world was attained as John 1:3 put it strongly that “All things were by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made”. Hebrews 1:10 further asserts our Lord in the beginning hast laid it the foundation of the earth and the heavens being his creation.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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John 14:16-17 . . I will request the Father and he will give you another
helper to be with you forever, the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot
receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. You know it, because it
remains with you and is in you.

John 14:26 . .The helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my
name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the
things I told you.

John Q and Jane Doe rank and file JWs are taught to believe that they obtain
boldness in speaking the word of God, and zealousness in engaging in the
work of witnessing, from "having" the holy spirit. (pg 382, Reasoning From
The Scriptures)

However; when speaking of "having" the holy spirit, the JWs mean that it is
alongside them rather than inside them. Only a special guild of 144,000 JWs
actually have the spirit inside them. The special guild are known as the
anointed class; a label taken from 1John 2:27.

The non-anointed class-- a.k.a. the great crowd, a.k.a. the hewers of wood
and haulers of water --are in a very serious condition. Here's why:

Rom 8:9 . .You are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if
God's spirit truly dwells in you.

Seeing as how God's spirit does not truly dwell "in" John Q and Jane Doe
missionary, then they are, by default, in harmony with the flesh. That only
makes things worse.

Rom 8:5-8 . . For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on
the things of the flesh, but those in accord with the spirit on the things of
the spirit. For the minding of the flesh means death, but the minding of the
spirit means life and peace; because the minding of the flesh means enmity
with God, for it is not under subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it
be. So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God.

The non-anointed class' situation is just too ironic for words. They displease
God, and He displeases them; yet they go door-to-door sincerely believing
themselves Jehovah's friends and allies.
_
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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However; when speaking of "having" the holy spirit, the JWs mean that it is
alongside them rather than inside them. Only a special guild of 144,000 JWs
actually have the spirit inside them. The special guild are known as the
anointed class; a label taken from 1John 2:27.
They follow the same pattern of Mormon, or Catholicism . Venerable men that lord it over the faith of the pew sitters. Giving them a false authority as if we were to seek the approval of man corruptible seen ,

Changing the meaning of apostle (sent one) rather looking to the temporal things seen and not the faith that comes according to God's understanding..

Not walking or understanding which come when a person excludes the faith that works in us (not of us) So that they cannot understanding hidden meaning of the parable. Not applying the 20/20 prescription

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Therefore they literalize the parable and make it about what the eyes see. Like the 144,000 an number no man could count of all the redeemed , of all nations. we are not of the number as those who number people of time periods. We rather walk by faith the power of Christ within. We are of the golden measure, the rule of faith

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
 

Webers.Home

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1John 2:26-27 . .These things I write you about those who are trying to
mislead you. And as for you, the anointing that you received from him
remains in you, and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but, as the
anointing from him is teaching you about all things, and is true and is no lie,
and just as it has taught you, remain in union with him.

The anointing provides people with some valuable advantages to which
people lacking it of course have no access.

1) Protects people from deception

2) Enables people to grasp Jesus Christ's teachings the way he wants them
grasped

3) Makes it possible for people to remain in union with him.

According to Watchtower Society theology, only 144,000 special Jehovah's
Witnesses have the anointing. There aren't that many living Witnesses who
have the anointing though because when anointed Witnesses die, their
passing doesn't create vacancies; viz: 144,000 is the maximum unless an
anointed JW either apostatizes or is ousted via the process of disfellowship.

What that means is: the vast majority of today's living JWs don't have the
anointing. We're talking about some serious numbers here.

Currently, there are approximately 20+ million adherents following the
Watchtower's Society's version of Christianity. Even if all 144,000 anointed
Witnesses were alive today, that would leave approximately 19.86 million
JWs roaming the earth in our day who 1) have no protection from deception,
2) are unable to grasp Jesus Christ's teachings the way he wants them
grasped, and 3) not in union with him.

I'd imagine that quite a few ordinary Witnesses sincerely believe that their
association with the Watchtower Society keeps them in union with Jesus
Christ; but according to 1John 2:26-27, union with Jesus Christ isn't
accomplished on the coattails of an organization; it's accomplished by means
of the anointing.

Ironically, every non anointed JW coming to our doors preaching the
kingdom of God are themselves "those who are trying to mislead you."
_
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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So-called Replacement Theology is just another name for identity theft. Take
for example the Watchtower Society's interpretation of Rev 7:1-8 wherein is
listed a specific number of Hebrews taken from every tribe of the sons of
Israel.

The Society claims that those aren't biological sons of Israel; but rather
"spiritual" sons-- referring of course to the Society's elite cadre of 144,000
Witnesses who have supposedly undergone a spirit birth as per Christ's
instructions at John 3:3-12; and the anointing as per 1John 2:26-27.

The Society's claim is premised upon its observation that there never was a
tribe of Joseph; when in reality Joseph is listed as both a son and a tribe
(Gen 49:2-28 and Ezek 48:31-34). So that portion of the Society's reasoning
is clearly a false premise.

The Society's claim is also premised upon its observation that Ephraim and
Dan are missing from the list of tribes at Rev 7:4-8. However, what the
Society's theologians have somehow overlooked in the Old Testament is that
it doesn't matter whose names are chosen to represent the twelve tribes of
Israel just so long as there are twelve names. Are there twelve in Rev 7:4
8? Yes. Well then that's good enough. I realize that makes no sense but then
the Lord's apostles were still referred to as "the twelve" even with Judas out
of the picture. So that premise in the Society's reasoning is spurious too.

The Society's claim is also premised upon its reasoning that Levi isn't a valid
tribe based upon the fact that the Levites are exempt from warfare.
However, Levi is clearly listed as both a son and a tribe (Gen 49:2-28) plus
Ezek 48:31-34, which is a good many years after Num 1:1-54. So that
premise is bogus too.

The Watchtower Society not wanting the 144,000 to be biological Hebrews is
one thing; but I would just like to know from whence Charles T. Russell's
and Joseph F. Rutherford's followers got the idea that their people constitute
the 144,000. That's a pretty serious claim. How do they validate it? I don't
know; but I can just about guarantee that their explanation is an outlandish
stretch of the imagination consisting of humanistic reasoning, rationalizing,
spiritualizing, clever sophistry, and semantic double-speak.

NOTE: According to Rev 14:1-4, the 144,000 are supposed to all be males,
and none have ever slept with a woman. That, if true, would of course
disqualify married JWs.
_
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,772
1,382
113
.
So-called Replacement Theology is just another name for identity theft. Take
for example the Watchtower Society's interpretation of Rev 7:1-8 wherein is
listed a specific number of Hebrews taken from every tribe of the sons of
Israel.


The Society claims that those aren't biological sons of Israel; but rather
"spiritual" sons-- referring of course to the Society's elite cadre of 144,000
Witnesses who have supposedly undergone a spirit birth as per Christ's
instructions at John 3:3-12; and the anointing as per 1John 2:26-27.


The Society's claim is premised upon its observation that there never was a
tribe of Joseph; when in reality Joseph is listed as both a son and a tribe
(Gen 49:2-28 and Ezek 48:31-34). So that portion of the Society's reasoning
is clearly a false premise.


The Society's claim is also premised upon its observation that Ephraim and
Dan are missing from the list of tribes at Rev 7:4-8. However, what the
Society's theologians have somehow overlooked in the Old Testament is that
it doesn't matter whose names are chosen to represent the twelve tribes of
Israel just so long as there are twelve names. Are there twelve in Rev 7:4
8? Yes. Well then that's good enough. I realize that makes no sense but then
the Lord's apostles were still referred to as "the twelve" even with Judas out
of the picture. So that premise in the Society's reasoning is spurious too.


The Society's claim is also premised upon its reasoning that Levi isn't a valid
tribe based upon the fact that the Levites are exempt from warfare.
However, Levi is clearly listed as both a son and a tribe (Gen 49:2-28) plus
Ezek 48:31-34, which is a good many years after Num 1:1-54. So that
premise is bogus too.


The Watchtower Society not wanting the 144,000 to be biological Hebrews is
one thing; but I would just like to know from whence Charles T. Russell's
and Joseph F. Rutherford's followers got the idea that their people constitute
the 144,000. That's a pretty serious claim. How do they validate it? I don't
know; but I can just about guarantee that their explanation is an outlandish
stretch of the imagination consisting of humanistic reasoning, rationalizing,
spiritualizing, clever sophistry, and semantic double-speak.


NOTE: According to Rev 14:1-4, the 144,000 are supposed to all be males,
and none have ever slept with a woman. That, if true, would of course
disqualify married JWs.
_

They are not the only ones of the number or called sign seekers as those who comparing themselves seen to the same things seen. And not faith to faith.

God who desires we walk by faith the golden measure used tribes and apostles in parables .He does not give us numbers in that way as a literal interpretation (no faith) Men make the parables without effect not mixing faith with that seen

Levi's are used to represent the Son of man the first born as a kingdom of priest after the new order of Melchezedek

A picture or parable of .Jesus coming in the Spirit and power of Melchezedek, the Holy Spirit of God that worked in his body of death.

The tribe of Dan is set aside to represent the Spirit of Judgment (those who trust another gospel) walking by sight after the temporal seen They fall backward slain .Dan as Judge represent the letter of the law death .It will not be part of the new order

Judas is used as a example of those who do fall backward after hearing the the word of God .This shows the unseen power of the Spirit of Christ. Both are missing from the description of the bride of Christ in that Revelation parable. Christian is the new name the father named the bride .Previously called her Israel .Christian . . a more befitting name as the bride of al nations . Named after her founder and husband Christ.

Tribes represent gates for entering into fellowship .Tribes represent all of the old testament saints that died in Christ their savor as those who will raise to new life. The apostles as supporting wall as those "sent out" of the gates . Together they make up the city prepared as the one bride.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,772
1,382
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According to Rev 14:1-4, the 144,000 are supposed to all be males,
and none have ever slept with a woman. That, if true, would of course
disqualify married JWs.
The virgin in that parable represent all of mankind signified as the wife of Christ. Timothy was set aside for that purpose. Paul is used in another parable to represent the mother of us all the freed woman the church . . . holding the gospel of Christ to Timothy signified as a mother sufferings in labor pain until Christ was formed in Timothy, the chaste virgin

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

The figurative or signified number 144,000 is a unknown .Again the Holy Spirit does not number days or people rather than having us walk (understand) by mixing faith with the things seen the temporal .

We need to put on the 20/20 prescription if we are to understand the gospel meaning. It is the light on the path

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
 

NWL

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2012
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NWL said:
What translation are you reading from that expresses Jesus is called creator by the Father in Rev 3:14, do you care to show me please?

THE ABOVE HAS ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION, the only thing that remains is you answering my questions.

In Hebrews 1:1-5, is the 'God' who is mentioned in v1 as having a Son ("his Son" v1), and being the 'Father' to this son in v5 ("
which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father") the first person of the trinity the Father?

You then failed to exegete Hebrews 1:3. It starts out with the word "And." The word "and" is a conjuction which "adds one thing to another." So what did the writer of Hebrews add in vs3? He said, "And He/Jesus Christ is the radiance of His/God the Father's glory and the EXACT representation of His/God the Father's nature/person, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."
NWL said:
The Greek word "hypostasis" used here not only means "nature" or "person" it means the "substancial quality, nature, or a person or thing. So the writer of Hebrews is saying tha the Son of God Jesus Christ has the same nature of His Father who is of course God. This makes complete sense because a son always bears the same nature as his father.

Jesus Christ did not have a biological Father, His Father was deity. So Jesus was deity/God on His Father's side and human as the Son of Man on His mother's side. This is also why John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Christians are "adopted" sons of God and none of us Christians are the one and only Son of God. When one becomes a Christian He receives God's nature but we do not have the attributes that make us the one and only God. Because of Hebrews 1:3 it follows that Jesus (at vs4) would have a much bertter name than the angels. And this is why at vs5 Jesus are not called THEE" sons of God. And this is why at vs6 God the Father says the angels are suppose to worship Jesus, including the angel Michael. (At least Charles Rusself got this right, until some new revelation light changed his mind".

This is also why at Hebrews 1:10 the Father says, "Lord/that is Jesus Christ, in the beginning did lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the words of Thy hands." In perfect harmony with Isaiah 44:24 where God said He did it "All alone" and "By Himself." There is no way you can get yourself out of the dilema you and your organization put yourselves in.
Nothing you stated answered any of my questions, please read the questions and answer them carefully. By answering my question I will then be able to fully develop and close my answer to the questions you originally asked me. Here are the questions again:

1) I showed you Hebrews 2:8 that states 'God subjected all things under man, and left NOTHING NOT subject to him', and stated that using your reasoning that 'nothing' means absolutely 'nothing', does it mean that God and the angels were subjected to man? <----- Please answer. If not, then does 'nothing' here mean absolutely 'nothing'? <----- Please answer

2) When it states Jesus is "first in all things" in Col 1:18, does the "all things" literally mean 'all things', as in, 'every single thing'?
<--- Please answer. If so, then is Jesus the first murder? <---- Please answer

3) In Hebrews 1:1-5, is the 'God' who is mentioned in v1 as having a Son ("his Son" v1), and being the 'Father' to this son in v5 ("
which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father") the first person of the trinity the Father?

4) What translation are you reading from that expresses Jesus is called creator by the Father in Rev 3:14, do you care to show me please?


Again, once you have answered my questions I will fully explain my reasoning against the points you raise, nothing you have said in your last response negates my questions, so stop stalling and answer them.
 

Absolutely

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Nothing you stated answered any of my questions, please read the questions and answer them carefully. By answering my question I will then be able to fully develop and close my answer to the questions you originally asked me. Here are the questions again:

1) I showed you Hebrews 2:8 that states 'God subjected all things under man, and left NOTHING NOT subject to him', and stated that using your reasoning that 'nothing' means absolutely 'nothing', does it mean that God and the angels were subjected to man? <----- Please answer. If not, then does 'nothing' here mean absolutely 'nothing'? <----- Please answer

2) When it states Jesus is "first in all things" in Col 1:18, does the "all things" literally mean 'all things', as in, 'every single thing'?
<--- Please answer. If so, then is Jesus the first murder? <---- Please answer

3) In Hebrews 1:1-5, is the 'God' who is mentioned in v1 as having a Son ("his Son" v1), and being the 'Father' to this son in v5 ("
which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father") the first person of the trinity the Father?

4) What translation are you reading from that expresses Jesus is called creator by the Father in Rev 3:14, do you care to show me please?


Again, once you have answered my questions I will fully explain my reasoning against the points you raise, nothing you have said in your last response negates my questions, so stop stalling and answer them.
Rev 1
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Lol
 

Absolutely

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Philippians 2:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;



Do watchtowers worship Jesus.

The highest name

Highest name
 

Absolutely

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Heb 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jesus is God
 

Absolutely

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John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.


Ooops
 

Stewie

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You have them confused with Mormons. JWs do not send teenagers on "missions" and do not call youth "elders".
 

Stewie

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I live right in the neighborhood of the Hill kimora. Jehovah witnesses are all around me. They are a cult.
They are not allowed nor practice reading the Bible they have a second Bible which was written by Joseph Smith that they follow.
Joseph Smith said that the Bible was incorrect. That Satan had corrupted the written word.
They believe that Jesus came to the Americas after his Ascension and gave Joseph Smith the true vision.
Need I go any further?
That's Mormons. ..not JWs
 

Absolutely

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Jn 1
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Lol
 

Webers.Home

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.
Matt 24:45-47 . .Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his
master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper
time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I
say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.

The core of the Watchtower Society-- the Governing Body --sincerely
believes itself the faithful and discreet slave spoken of in that passage, i.e.
believes that God chose the leaders of the Watchtower Society as His sole
distributor of truth to mankind; thus explaining why John Q and Jane Doe
Jehovah's Witnesses are taught that they need to submit unquestioningly to
the Governing Body in order to associate with God, and for protection from
doomsday, viz: the calamities depicted in the book of Revelation.

"That faithful slave is the channel through which Jesus is feeding his true
followers in this time of the end. It is vital that we recognize the faithful
slave. Our spiritual health and our relationship with God depend on this
channel.
" (Watchtower, 2013 Jul 15, p.20)

"We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave to have Jehovah’s
approval.
" (Watchtower, 2011 Jul 15, p.24, Simplified English Edition)

"[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or
harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has
complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through
his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave.
" (Watchtower,
2001 Aug 01, p.14)

According to the above: rank and file JWs are being taught that it's essential
to comply with the Governing Body's teachings. However; at the same time
they are warned that the Body's teachings cannot be assured that they are
either inspired or infallible.

"The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in
doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower
Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists
adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. Of course, Jesus did
not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food.
"
(paragraph 12, under the heading; "Who is leading God's People today?" of
the Feb 2017 Watchtower--Study Edition)

Just imagine the degree of confusion and insecurity that would pervade the
minds of regular Christians had the authors of the New Testament scriptures
attached a caveat to their writings similar to the above.
_