Rapture= false teaching

[BLC]

the new testament saints according to scripture won't be going up in the first tribulation, rev 20, speaks of those that did not take the mark of the beast, clearly a temptation only during the Great tribulation and the rest of the dead will be raised after the 1000 yr. reign. so my answer that to contradict scriptures would have to be no I am not going up in the first resurrection, but neithe r are the NT saints either , i don't understand why you guys won't to say that the Bible doesn't mean what it says

Re 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Re 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


but before this the Bride? Church is ready with her white linen already>


Re 19:7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.Re 19:8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. so how did the bride get her white linen if the nt saints had not been judged yet

Let's work this out so that it can be understood and make sense out of all the scriptures.

You have not dealt with those that are caught up together to be with the Lord in the air, both those that dead in Christ and those that remain alive (1Thes 4:17). There is a resurrection that takes place here and you have not classified it. These are NT believers that will go up in the rapture and the dead are resurrected from the grave. This is a resurrection of no small magnitude which includes all those that have died in Christ since the resurrection of Christ until the time of the rapture being more than 2000 years. The first resurrection mentioned in (Rev 20:4) deals with those tribulation saints that are included in the first resurrection along with those that were taken up in the rapture. There is only a small segment of (7 Years) between these resurrections that invloves all NT saints of the church and all the tribulation saints. The second resurrection takes place after the Millenium (1000 years later) and involves only the wicked dead that appear before the Great White Throne judgment. This will be a massive amount of people going back to the beginning of man until the end of the Millenium of Christ's reign on the earth from the New Jerusalem.

 

[watchmen]

Let's work this out so that it can be understood and make sense out of all the scriptures.

You have not dealt with those that are caught up together to be with the Lord in the air, both those that dead in Christ and those that remain alive (1Thes 4:17).

This event occurs at the coming of Christ.
1st Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Which is after the tribulation is ended.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Explain this away BLC?

 

[Groundhog]

First, I want everyone that reads this to know that I am being sarcastic on purpose but have a grain of truth in what I say.

Groundhog, 'You are truly LEFT of the center and BEHIND in much of your understanding about grace and truth, and that is SERIOUS! What do you think of that?

Well, I think that you're wrong. You're being mean-spirited, insulting, and it is incredibly arrogant for you to believe that you are "ahead" of me in understanding about grace and truth. I'm not sure how your statement was supposed to be taken, but you may want to take this opportunity to explain yourself.

 

[Thaddaeus]

First, I want everyone that reads this to know that I am being sarcastic on purpose but have a grain of truth in what I say.

Groundhog, 'You are truly LEFT of the center and BEHIND in much of your understanding about grace and truth, and that is SERIOUS! What do you think of that?

I don't know what he thinks but I think it is a very proudful statement on your part and I don't think any Christian should ever think of themself any higher than anyone other Christians when it comes to grace.

Ro 12:3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the MEASURE of faith.
I think an apology is in order!!

 

[Thaddaeus]

Let's work this out so that it can be understood and make sense out of all the scriptures.

You have not dealt with those that are caught up together to be with the Lord in the air, both those that dead in Christ and those that remain alive (1Thes 4:17). There is a resurrection that takes place here and you have not classified it. These are NT believers that will go up in the rapture and the dead are resurrected from the grave. This is a resurrection of no small magnitude which includes all those that have died in Christ since the resurrection of Christ until the time of the rapture being more than 2000 years. The first resurrection mentioned in (Rev 20:4) deals with those tribulation saints that are included in the first resurrection along with those that were taken up in the rapture. There is only a small segment of (7 Years) between these resurrections that invloves all NT saints of the church and all the tribulation saints. The second resurrection takes place after the Millenium (1000 years later) and involves only the wicked dead that appear before the Great White Throne judgment. This will be a massive amount of people going back to the beginning of man until the end of the Millenium of Christ's reign on the earth from the New Jerusalem.

you argue against scriptures with your man made doctrine

Re 20:11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.Re 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.Re 20:13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.Re 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Re 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
at the great white throne the ones who names are written are judged according to their works if your name is not in the book you are cast into the lake of fire. so you doctrine has to be false for it is the saved people that are judged here.not the wicked ones whose names are not in the book are cast into hell. so it can not be just the wicked as you say, sorry.

 

[MahogonySnail]

If you read the scriptures with no preconceived ideas of rapture, and read them from front to end as they are written without reading anything into the text. I am pretty sure you will not reach a pre-tribulation rapture conclusion.

All I see is pre-trib believers trying to fit or squeeze a pre-trib view into the bible with your own mind and understanding (eg who gets raptured first and when etc). Read Matt 24 from beginning to end as Watchmen quoted. It clearly says the elect are gathered after the tribultion, and there's nothing more we can add to that scripture about secret or pre-trib raptures, because that is adding to scripture and basically saying that Matt 24 has it wrong. Given that Matt 24 is quotes out of Jesus's mouth himself, and the other verses used to prove the pre-trib rapture are from Paul, my money is on Matt 24 alone. Matt 24 disproves any sort of pre-trib rapture. Remember Jesus was speaking to his disciples here so if he thought they would be raptured, he would have told them in Matt 24, and not waited for Paul to reveal it in later scriptures! eg Thessalonians or John in Revelation.

 

[doubleedge]

NO DOUBT!!!

EVEN FURTHER SUPPORT:
http://www.john1429.org/video/sod/sod.html

 

[doubleedge]

my previous post was in support of MahogonySnail

 

[BLC]

I don't know about you guys, but I get my theology from the Left Behind series.

Would you like to explain what you meant by this post so that readers can understand what you are truly saying here? When you do explain what you meant, that will make my response to you very clear and I will have no need to apologize for anything.

 

[Thaddaeus]

If you read the scriptures with no preconceived ideas of rapture, and read them from front to end as they are written without reading anything into the text. I am pretty sure you will not reach a pre-tribulation rapture conclusion.

All I see is pre-trib believers trying to fit or squeeze a pre-trib view into the bible with your own mind and understanding (eg who gets raptured first and when etc). Read Matt 24 from beginning to end as Watchmen quoted. It clearly says the elect are gathered after the tribultion, and there's nothing more we can add to that scripture about secret or pre-trib raptures, because that is adding to scripture and basically saying that Matt 24 has it wrong. Given that Matt 24 is quotes out of Jesus's mouth himself, and the other verses used to prove the pre-trib rapture are from Paul, my money is on Matt 24 alone. Matt 24 disproves any sort of pre-trib rapture. Remember Jesus was speaking to his disciples here so if he thought they would be raptured, he would have told them in Matt 24, and not waited for Paul to reveal it in later scriptures! eg Thessalonians or John in Revelation.

so how do we preceive that the bride has already recieve her white clean linen before the first resurrection <<<<<<<<<

 

[aprodigal1]

We need to be careful trying to create a time line that will reveal the day and the hour of Christs' return Matthew 25:13. Even in the pre trib/post trib arguments we tend to argue that we know more then our Lord does, Mark 13:32-33

&#8220;But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.


Christs command for me, is not to figure out when He is coming, but to be ready for when He does.

 

[Thaddaeus]

We need to be careful trying to create a time line that will reveal the day and the hour of Christs' return Matthew 25:13. Even in the pre trib/post trib arguments we tend to argue that we know more then our Lord does, Mark 13:32-33

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.


Christs command for me, is not to figure out when He is coming, but to be ready for when He does.

a pre-trib does not say that we know the hour or the day for there is no where that says that the day that 1 thes 4:13-18 happens then the tribulation begins, then we can count 7 years and the Lord will come there is no time that I know of that is preached between the rapture and the tribulation starts . either on a post trib I know of no time given between the moon turning to blood and the day the Lord Comes, could be the same day or days after so I really don't think your accusation merits any credit.

but will say that if we are still here when the temple is built and someone offering world peace takes the seat in the temple we could start a seven year count down and just start getting ready the last part of the sixth year so why would the bible tell uswhen we see these things to look up our redemption draweth nigh for we should know that we have another seven years to get ready. oops better not say this I might get tagged as a pre-tribbber oh well probably already have.

 

[aprodigal1]

I was just making a blanketed statement to all those that believe they have this argument nailed down. I know that you being a pre-tribber believe that the rapture can occur at any moment, so do I. I just pray I'm busy doing the work of the gospel and not caught up in non-foundational arguments of the faith when He does return.

 

[MahogonySnail]

so how do we preceive that the bride has already recieve her white clean linen before the first resurrection

These in white clean linen is still during the great tribultion, not after:

Rev 7:14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.


Rev 7:14 clearly shows that there are saints coming out of the great tribulation. They are not raptured before the great tribulation takes place.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Also note that Jesus said the days are shortened for the elects sake:

Mat 24:22 And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.

If there were to be no elect on the earth during the great tribulation, Jesus would have had no need to shorten the days. Pre-trib rapture disproved right there.


Forget about trying to figure out the timing of events in Revelation, read Matt. 24 from begining to end it is clear that Jesus told the elect to wait for His return, which is immediately after the tribulation of those days (Matt 24:29). The elect are gathered AFTER the tribulation in Matt 24:31.

And as Rev. says, when Christ returns with his armies of angels to gather these elect, tribulation saints, he will be accompanied by those clothed in white linen. I think these are the ones who died prior to or during the great tribulation. They do not come from any sort of pre-tribulation rapture.

 

[Thaddaeus]

These in white clean linen is still during the great tribultion, not after:

Rev 7:14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.


Rev 7:14 clearly shows that there are saints coming out of the great tribulation. They are not raptured before the great tribulation takes place.

No No we( the saved) all receive white garments. but rev says that it is the Bride and this occurs before the first resurrection you can't explain it away, it occurs before according to scriptures let me give you the verse AGAIN:
Re 19:7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.Re 19:8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Then we have :
Re 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Re 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[carpetmanswife]

I was just making a blanketed statement to all those that believe they have this argument nailed down. I know that you being a pre-tribber believe that the rapture can occur at any moment, so do I. I just pray I'm busy doing the work of the gospel and not caught up in non-foundational arguments of the faith when He does return.

I think im gonna like you

 

[Groundhog]

Would you like to explain what you meant by this post so that readers can understand what you are truly saying here? When you do explain what you meant, that will make my response to you very clear and I will have no need to apologize for anything.

I don't know about you guys, but I get my theology from the Left Behind series.

It was a joke.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Thaddeus in Matt. 24 how many times did Jesus say he was coming back?
Please point to where the pre-tribulation rapture is mentioned in Matt. 24.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Thaddeus in Matt. 24 how many times did Jesus say he was coming back?
Please point to where the pre-tribulation rapture is mentioned in Matt. 24.

in 1thes, 4:13-18 He does not come back but rather we go up to Him in the clouds Bible prophecy concerning when He comes back tell where He puts His feet. so He is only touching down or coming back to earth ONE TIME!!!! but you show me in 1 thes 4 where it says that He touches down. He descends from heaven to the clouds but that as low as he comes then we go up to Him this has to tell you that this is seperate event from the end times.


1th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.1th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.1th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.