We can disprove it over and over until the end of time most, but pretribbers are still going to believe it until they are knee deep into the Tribulation. My prayer is that a few, especially young, knowledgeable, and wise brothers and sister in Christ come to the knowledge of the truth, even if most will blind there own eyes to it.
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Okay and if it was directed towards him that is no problem. But he is not the voice for all "pretribbers". Just because you believe in the pretrib rapture as Jesus portrays in Matthew 24:40-41
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
I don't see any mention of the Holy Spirit being removed and just as Thaddaeus said there are people being saved in Rev 7.. I have a question for you Watchmen..
What is the purpose of the 144,000 men and the two witnesses?
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
I don't see any mention of the Holy Spirit being removed and just as Thaddaeus said there are people being saved in Rev 7.. I have a question for you Watchmen..
What is the purpose of the 144,000 men and the two witnesses?
M
We can disprove it over and over until the end of time most, but pretribbers are still going to believe it until they are knee deep into the Tribulation. My prayer is that a few, especially young, knowledgeable, and wise brothers and sister in Christ come to the knowledge of the truth, even if most will blind there own eyes to it.
Given that Christ never mentioned rapture, Paul never mentioned it either, it's not mentioned explicitly in REvelation either, only supposed to be there - a plain and simple reading of the scripture,
Most people who are promoting the pretrib in this thread could care less what scripture says, but I believe you D_C want to know the truth whatever that truth may be, and asure you you cannot get a pretrib view from a plain common sense reading of what the scriptures says.
D
I do not believe all pretribbers believe that holy spirit will be removed, but through out my studies and debates, I can tell you most do, especially among those who are teaching the young one as yourself coming up.
Are they going to witness to the already saved Church or What is their purpose in your belief system?
Okay. So what is the purpose of the two witnesses (maybe to witness) and the 144,000 bond servants of the Lord?
Are they going to witness to the already saved Church or What is their purpose in your belief system?
Are they going to witness to the already saved Church or What is their purpose in your belief system?
D
This is not a good argument. Are you suggest that we need not to witness now because the church has not been rapture. There does not need to be a rapture of the Church for people to witness.
A question is not an argument. That wasn't my point.. What is the purpose of the 144,000 bonds servants and two witnesses? Are they going to witness to the already saved Church? You didn't answer the question on what their purpose is.
#2 Of course they will not need to witness to those who are already serving the Lord.
A question is not an argument. That wasn't my point.. What is the purpose of the 144,000 bonds servants and two witnesses? Are they going to witness to the already saved Church? You didn't answer the question on what their purpose is.
#1 Nowhere in scripture does it say the 144,000 are going to witness to anyone.
#2 Of course they will not need to witness to those who are already serving the Lord.
#2 Of course they will not need to witness to those who are already serving the Lord.
M
I was talking about you the Bible itself disprove the pretrib rapture yet you still believe it. Why do you not trust God''s word?
D
#1 Nowhere in scripture does it say the 1144,000 are going to witness to anyone.
#2 Of course they will not need to witness to those who are already serving the Lord.
#2 Of course they will not need to witness to those who are already serving the Lord.
Revelation 3
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”
8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11 Behold,I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
I do trust God's Word - that's why I believe it! What I cannot believe is the melodramatic, dogmatic nonesense I have read in this thread!
D
Given that Christ never mentioned rapture, Paul never mentioned it either, it's not mentioned explicitly in REvelation either, only supposed to be there - a plain and simple reading of the scripture, each chapter, from beginning to end, coupled with the historical records we have of what early christians believed - there is no pre-trib rapture. The whole pre-trib rapture doctrine came by revelation and so it is really an issue of whether a person believes God did reveal new things to us in the last 200 years, or whether you think there is no new revelation and everything was sealed with the closing of the canon.
Also, MAtth 24 is not talking about any rapture. They are taken away because it is the second coming of Christ, not pre-trib rapture:
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Took them all away means killed. As they were taken away by the flood, i.e. drowned by the flood.
Also, MAtth 24 is not talking about any rapture. They are taken away because it is the second coming of Christ, not pre-trib rapture:
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Took them all away means killed. As they were taken away by the flood, i.e. drowned by the flood.
Okay if the 144,000 are bond servants of the Lord and the Lord is not willing ANY should perish, don't you think it's reasonable to believe that they will be um... DOING THE LORD'S WILL? I don't think they are going to be baking brownies if that is what you are suggesting.. What else could they possibly be doing? There will not be a need for God to bring in witnesses if the Church is still here.. But the church will NOT be here...[
Revelation 3
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”
8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11 Behold,I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”
8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11 Behold,I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
As you see God does not need to remove us from the earth to keep us from evil, temption or anything else.
M
There are certain things we must be dogmatic about, and the pretrib rapture is a lie of satan created to deceive the church lulling it to sleep, keeping us unaware and unprepared for the time of trouble we will one day have to face. Thankfully God is raising up an endtime army to #1 expose this lie for what it is, and #2 prepare the church to make their stand.
I think one of the major things we can expect in the endtimes is what is primarily outlined in Jude: Apostasy!
Although having just read my own post you'd probably consider pretib to be part of that.
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D
This makes me sad to see a child of God fall into this deception, I am being completely honest it hurts my heart to see a young one with the intellect you have fall into such grievous error.
!8 pages in and you have finally foubnd a scripture that might support the pretrib position the sad thing is although this is the closest thing pretribbers have to a valid scripture this verse in no way hints that the church will be removed from the earth but simply keep from the hour of temptation.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
As you see God does not need to remove us from the earth to keep us from evil, temption or anything else.
!8 pages in and you have finally foubnd a scripture that might support the pretrib position the sad thing is although this is the closest thing pretribbers have to a valid scripture this verse in no way hints that the church will be removed from the earth but simply keep from the hour of temptation.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
As you see God does not need to remove us from the earth to keep us from evil, temption or anything else.
Luke 21
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.
35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
37 And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet.
38 Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.
Explanation of that?
An endtime army to expose pretribulationism? You have to got be JOKING.
I think one of the major things we can expect in the endtimes is what is primarily outlined in Jude: Apostatsy!
I think one of the major things we can expect in the endtimes is what is primarily outlined in Jude: Apostatsy!
Matthew 24
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The reason the evil servant will say in his heart the Lord has delayed His coming is because he was taught the Lord would come to rescue him before the Tribulation, but the trib will start there will have been no rapture, therefore he will say in his heart my Lord has delayed His coming and turn on Christ and other christians.
John 17:5??? That is so out of context that is in NO way talking about the great tribulation rather the EVIL in the world....
Luke 21
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.
35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
37 And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet.
38 Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.
Explanation of that?
Luke 21
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.
35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
37 And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet.
38 Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.
Explanation of that?
#1 You cannot escape the tribulation if you never were in it. How can you escape anything you are not in? you cannot escape a bad relationship if you are not first in a bad relationship, you cannot escape prison without first being in prison ect.. This verse if anything disproves the pretrib rapture , it doesn;t prove it.
#2
Luke 21
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Right here in this same chapter ''Luke 21'' Jesus makes it crystal clear that when the tribulation is at its height when men are being killed when the earth is acting up, when men are falling over dead because of fear then our redemption (the rapture) draws near. Luke 21 proves the post trib rapture not the pretrib. What you need to do is study your Bible not pretrib teachers.
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