Rapture= false teaching

[watchmen]

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. John 17:15

What i'm worried about is that the people who believe so strong on the pre-trib and are absolutely sure it will happen. Because if it dosent happen, which I can't see enough Biblical prove to support it, then I'm afraid a lot of these people will not know what to believe and that they might fall down and worship the antichrist. Since the antichrist is going to claim to be God.

This is true, and thre bible says this will happen.

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Many will turn on Christ during the Trib before His return, this is referred to by Paul as the falling away, and one main reason for this falling away is the pretrib docrtine via Jesus in Matthew 24


Matthew 24
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Well Definition_Christ, it may suprise you but you actually have to use your brain. For example, does a literal sword literally come out of Jesus's mouth?
You may say, "well yes, it does, because scripture says it". But knowing that Jesus is a human like you or I, but with a glorified body, I know he has no special mechanisms or machinery or witchcraft that would cause a sword to come out of his mouth. And if Jesus wanted to literally kill someone with a literal sword why wouldn't he hold it in his hand? Knowing that a sword is often symbolic for the Word of God, and given that it is depicted as coming out of his mouth, I know that it is not literal. Same goes for the two witnesses - fire is also symbolic, it has support in the old testament with the verse I quoted. The witnesses are prophets, the old testament prophets used "fire out of the mouth" as symbolism also.

I also am pretty sure that any warfare waged by the saints is symbolic, because it would contradict the pacifism of Christianity and loving thy neighbour if Christ and the saints rolled in to literlaly kill people with tanks and nuclear missiles or swords and chariots. The way Christians "wage war" is by the words and testimony which Christians hold. They win victory over the beast not by shooting at him (those stupid left behind movies or games even teach that if a person does not convert it is OK for a christian to kill/shoot them????) , but by remaining firm to the end even becoming martyrs.

Revelations must be understood in light of it's intended purpose - to comfort saints on the earth enduring persecution or tribulation. Whatever happens on the earth in the physical is spoken of symbolically in Revelation. Which begs the question - why would John even need to write the book of Revelation if there was not going to be any saints on the earth during the tribulation for which it could benefit?

 

[Definition_Christ]

Well Definition_Christ, it may suprise you but you actually have to use your brain. For example, does a literal sword literally come out of Jesus's mouth?
You may say, "well yes, it does, because scripture says it". But knowing that Jesus is a human like you or I, but with a glorified body, I know he has no special mechanisms or machinery or witchcraft that would cause a sword to come out of his mouth. And if Jesus wanted to literally kill someone with a literal sword why wouldn't he hold it in his hand? Knowing that a sword is often symbolic for the Word of God, and given that it is depicted as coming out of his mouth, I know that it is not literal. Same goes for the two witnesses - fire is also symbolic, it has support in the old testament with the verse I quoted. The witnesses are prophets, the old testament prophets used "fire out of the mouth" as symbolism also.

I also am pretty sure that any warfare waged by the saints is symbolic, because it would contradict the pacifism of Christianity and loving thy neighbour if Christ and the saints rolled in to literlaly kill people with tanks and nuclear missiles or swords and chariots. The way Christians "wage war" is by the words and testimony which Christians hold. They win victory over the beast not by shooting at him (those stupid left behind movies or games even teach that if a person does not convert it is OK for a christian to kill/shoot them????) , but by remaining firm to the end even becoming martyrs.

Revelations must be understood in light of it's intended purpose - to comfort saints on the earth enduring persecution or tribulation. Whatever happens on the earth in the physical is spoken of symbolically in Revelation. Which begs the question - why would John even need to write the book of Revelation if there was not going to be any saints on the earth during the tribulation for which it could benefit?

You can trust your brain and heart all you want. I will trust God's Word.

Proverbs 28:26
He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.

I would of thought you would of at least say be led by the Holy Spirit, but now I can see where your heart is it. Preferably .....

John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come

Revelation 11
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

So do they literally have the power to stop rain or turn water into blood?

 

[timjim]

While its true that there will probably be even a greater fall away during the tribulation, I think that the apostacy started around 1950-1970. If you look at the people's way of life before that it was quite different. Way back before that if you were a fornicator, adulter, etc. you knew you where living in sin, but now you can do anything and still be a Christian.

Like you said it is going to be a man of lawlessness. So this is a man claiming to be God with no rules.

Many People claim to know God but live by no rules. Who are they preparing to worship?

 

[MahogonySnail]

No use trusting in something that you can't properly interpret Definition Christ. Everything I've said is also inspired by bible commentaries by well respected theologians. I don't believe to be led by the Spirit is to park your brain at the door - that's why there's so many ridiculous doctrines around that are claimed to be "from the Spirit". Unfortunately, the pre-trib doctrine is one of them - inspired by supposed direct revelations from God, rather than extracted from careful study of the scripture. Confirmed by every evangelical or charismatic person who thinks that saying "the Spirit told me" is enough to guarantee sound doctrine. Shown to be hopelessly incorrect by many who do search for truth objectively.

The reason why some Christians miss or can't understand Revelation is probably because they have been indoctrinated to never question or doubt what Scripture says all their life , which forces a literal interpretation upon scripture (like a guy who believed only few would be saved? literally - only 4 people, he was one of them, so he claimed). But if we don't doubt what we read in scripture literally , like a sword actually coming out of Jesus's mouth, we can't see the symbolism behind what is written.

If you can't understand the symbolism then your understanding of Revelation will only be a superficial and carnal understanding, which is really only good for making entertaining movies (baha, unfortunately the Left Behind movies even failed in that department) .

 

[watchmen]

You can trust your brain and heart all you want. I will trust God's Word.

If you truly trusted God's word you would be a die hard post tribber, willing to give you life for Christ, not praying to be removed from the earth before you have to make your stand.

 

[Definition_Christ]

No use trusting in something that you can't properly interpret Definition Christ. Everything I've said is also inspired by bible commentaries by well respected theologians. I don't believe to be led by the Spirit is to park your brain at the door - that's why there's so many ridiculous doctrines around that are claimed to be "from the Spirit". Unfortunately, the pre-trib doctrine is one of them - inspired by supposed direct revelations from God, rather than extracted from careful study of the scripture. Confirmed by every evangelical or charismatic person who thinks that saying "the Spirit told me" is enough to guarantee sound doctrine. Shown to be hopelessly incorrect by many who do search for truth objectively.

The reason why some Christians miss or can't understand Revelation is probably because they have been indoctrinated to never question or doubt what Scripture says all their life , which forces a literal interpretation upon scripture (like a guy who believed only few would be saved? literally - only 4 people, he was one of them, so he claimed). But if we don't doubt what we read in scripture literally , like a sword actually coming out of Jesus's mouth, we can't see the symbolism behind what is written.

If you can't understand the symbolism then your understanding of Revelation will only be a superficial and carnal understanding, which is really only good for making entertaining movies (baha, unfortunately the Left Behind movies even failed in that department) .

So you trust men over God's word.. Try.. "let God be true any every man a liar".. You just admitted you trust MAN over what the word of God says because TO YOU it seems unreasonable.

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty

So.. You trust your foolish heart over God's Word. You trust MAN over God's word.. Do you trust God's Word?

And another question...

Revelation 11
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

So do they literally have the power to stop rain or turn water into blood?

 

[MahogonySnail]

Definition Christ, when you trust the bible, you are trusting what is written by man are you not? Unless you believe the bible was written by space aliens. Or perhaps you do not believe that other men of God, respected theologians etc have the Holy Spirit, or are incapable to teach? Or perhaps you think your amateurish attempts at interpreting the scripture are more correct than what theologians are capable of producing?

 

[Definition_Christ]

Definition Christ, when you trust the bible, you are trusting what is written by man are you not? Unless you believe the bible was written by space aliens. Or perhaps you do not believe that other men of God, respected theologians etc have the Holy Spirit, or are incapable to teach?

That's the same argument Jehovah's Witnesses use for their NWT. How about...

Proverbs 30:6
Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Your commentary AKA man's word is their personal interpretation of God's Word. You won't find any of John Wesley's writings in the bible.
No I don't trust man over God, and you wouldn't be a Christian if you believed the bible was not "God breathed".

So can you please answer my question?

Revelation 11
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

So do they literally have the power to stop rain or turn water into blood?

 

[watchmen]

Revelation 11
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

So do they literally have the power to stop rain or turn water into blood?

Yes they will

 

[Definition_Christ]

Yes they will

I figured you would have agreed with me there. It is a literal interpretation just like in Egypt going back to Exodus God turned the water into blood.. And somewhere in Kings where God used Elijah to tell people He will stop the rain from coming down... Those are literal interpretations.. I was just curious if Snail would agree they are literal or not because he thinks the verse above that is symbolic.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Your commentary AKA man's word is their personal interpretation of God's Word. You won't find any of John Wesley's writings in the bible.
No I don't trust man over God, and you wouldn't be a Christian if you believed the bible was not "God breathed".

Whats the difference between what you call man's word, in commentaries, and what you post here which is also man's word?

Firstly, why do you presume that a man of God such as Wesley would be less capable of interpreting the scripture than you do privately?

Secondly, the bible is indeed God breathed and inspired of God but written by men with the Holy Spirit -but also do you not believe that God gave some to be teachers? , or that men of God who write bible commentaries are not gifted to do so or lack the Spirit themself?

Thirdly, do you suppose that you are so special that God would personally reveal to you a truth such as pre trib rapture, which was not found in the early church, nor prior to Darby in the 17 to 1800's? , or rather, that Darby was so special that God would give him this revelation which runs counter to everything the church believed until that time.


And do you literally believe there will be multiple headed monsters and a real literal dragon? :
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of its heads as having been slain to death, and its deadly wound was healed. And all the earth marveled after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast. And they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with it?

 

[watchmen]

I figured you would have agreed with me there. It is a literal interpretation just like in Egypt going back to Exodus God turned the water into blood.. And somewhere in Kings where God used Elijah to tell people He will stop the rain from coming down... Those are literal interpretations.. I was just curious if Snail would agree they are literal or not because he thinks the verse above that is symbolic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Definition_Christ

I think you just have so much hatred towards pretrib rapture even if someone proved it to you in the bible you wouldn't believe it because you are so against it. Yesterday you almost made a point until you suggested I studied into IT.. Now I have studied into it and it only affirmed my belief.

Let's play connect the dots!

Watchman:lets do!!!!!

Quote:Originally Posted by Definition_Christ
Matthew 24
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

(note that does not say killed, that is just speculation with no evidence. It clearly says TAKEN.. Taken where? To be with Jesus!)
Watchman:Lets look at exactly when they will be removed?
Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


So according to your own reference they are removed at the coming of Christ which we find out in this very chapter verses 29-31 is after the tribulation (Of course you wouldn't learn that by study pretrib false teachers)
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




Quote:Originally Posted by Definition_Christ
1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Watchman:Once again this passage is proof for post trib in verse 15 it say the rapture occurs at the coming of Christ which we know for Matthew 24:29-31 and other passages is after the tribulation not be it.

Quote:Originally Posted by Definition_Christ
(So those who will be TAKEN UP.. Will be with the Lord Hence Matt 24:40-41 "TAKEN UP.. Paul just says CAUGHT UP"... It says COMFORT one another with these words..Not you will have to endure the great tribulation but you will NOT endure the great tribulation the Lord has already assured us of that!)
Watchman:The comforting thing about these words is that the dead are going to be raised not that the living our going to caught up.
1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

This whole passages is meant to comfort believers who freinds and families have already passed on not to teach a pretrib rapture. Matter of fact as i have already shown the setting of this whole event is at the post trib coming of Christ.

Quote:Originally Posted by Definition_Christ
Luke 21 (Note this is AFTER Yeshua talks about the great tribulation you can read the whole chapter for context if you'd like but I want to point out a few key words)

34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.
35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
37 And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet.
38 Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.

(So we will ESCAPE these things .. What things? The great tribulation.. We will be "caught up" (as Paul says) or "taken up" (As Yeshua says).. We will be in the clouds and escape from these things.. Are there anymore Scriptures to let us know we will NOT endure the tribulation? Sure!!)
Watchman:#1 You cannot escape the tribulation if you never were in it. How can you escape anything you are not in? you cannot escape a bad relationship if you are not first in a bad relationship, you cannot escape prison without first being in prison ect.. This verse if anything disproves the pretrib rapture , it doesn;t prove it.

#2
Luke 21
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.



Right here in this same chapter ''Luke 21'' Jesus makes it crystal clear that when the tribulation is at its height when men are being killed when the earth is acting up, when men are falling over dead because of fear then our redemption (the rapture) draws near. Luke 21 proves the post trib rapture not the pretrib. What you need to do is study your Bible not pretrib teachers.

Quote:Originally Posted by Definition_Christ
Revelation 3
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:
8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
Watchman:The sad thing is although this is the closest thing pretribbers have to a valid scripture this verse in no way hints that the church will be removed from the earth but simply keep from the hour of temptation.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

As you see God does not need to remove us from the earth to keep us from evil, temption or anything else.

Quote:Originally Posted by Definition_Christ
(So... AGAIN we have the PROMISE from Yeshua Himself we will be "KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TRAIL WHICH SHALL COME UPON THE WHOLE WORLD" And some people are calling Yeshua a liar and saying Yeshua is preaching a false doctrine.)
Watchman:I am calling the person you copied and pasted this teaching a liar, not Jesus. Jesus never taught we would be removed from the earth before the Tribulation, and many of the verses you have posted here in support of the pretrib rapture actually prove that we will be here until the post trib return of Christ, such as Matthew 24:37-41, and 1 Thess 4:13-18. Quote:Originally Posted by Definition_Christ

So... What do we do? Believe man's lies saying we will endure the great tribulation or believe Yeshua?

(Note thanks for inviting me to investigate the Scriptures Watchmen)

If there is ANOTHER way to interpret these Scriptures please inform me on your interpretation.
Watchman:Mans lie is that of a pretrib rapture and yes i believe Jesus not mans lie. you shouldn;t interpret scripture you should just accept it as written, and you definitely should believe someone elses false interpretation of scripture.

So...how do you respond to this post especially the fact that the removing of the men and women in Matthew 24L40-41, as well as the catching away of the living in 1 Thess 4:13-18 are both place at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ?

 

[MahogonySnail]

Regarding the power of the witnesses to shut up heaven and stop the rain (by the way this is an allusion to ancient view on how rain was formed) etc.. it may or may not be literal. It could be a way to say that they have a lot of power to exact God's judgements by various means, with allusion to the plagues in Egypt. Whether they actually happen like that is unknown. But still, its possible that they may be literal, but the thing about fire coming out of their mouth, is most likely symbolic.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Firstly, why do you presume that a man of God such as Wesley would be less capable of interpreting the scripture than you do privately?

I don't interpret Scripture privately, I interpret Scripture with Scripture. My point was you trust theologians more than the Bible even if it's a clear contradiction.

Secondly, the bible is indeed God breathed and inspired of God but written by men with the Holy Spirit -but also do you not believe that God gave some to be teachers? , or that men of God who write bible commentaries are not gifted to do so or lack the Spirit themself?

Yeah have you ever heard the term "false teacher"? That is when someone contradicts the Word of God, someone confronts them and they still continue to teach in error.

Thirdly, do you suppose that you are so special that God would personally reveal to you a truth such as pre trib rapture, which was not found in the early church, nor prior to Darby in the 17 to 1800's? , or rather, that Darby was so special that God would give him this revelation which runs counter to everything the church believed until that time.

I think that you are very ignorant for even asking the question. God doesn't work by the time or way of men. He works according to His will. It's not some *new truth* it's clearly taught in the bible.

And...
It really makes no sense to me you would say "you have to use your brain". You have to use your brain to decide what is symbolic and literal? So if you just have to use your brain. You are saying interpretation of ALL Scripture is simply subjective. Therefore there is no objective interpretation of any Scripture at all because it is all subjective. It is just my opinion vs your opinion. Meaning you couldn't prove by using the Bible Yeshua really died on the Cross or not. You could argue "well Paul says we have to die daily to our flesh and have our own Cross to bare". So there would be absolutely no interpretation of Scripture at all making our faith in vain. Which is why you can't say "this is symbolic, and this is literal" otherwise you are committing a logical fallacy.You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between symbolic or literal because it is all subjective. Seeing how the Bible never says "this is symbolic" or "this is literal" you wouldn't be able to trust anything.

2 Peter 1:20
that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation.

 

[timjim]

If the Bible is subject to error than how are we supposed to know what to believe. I think most people get confused with the calling of the Holy Spirit and the lure of the flesh. And I hear a lot of people say that you need to just listen to your heart.

The heart is decitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9

 

[bygrace]

I think you just have so much hatred towards pretrib rapture even if someone proved it to you in the bible you wouldn't believe it because you are so against it. Yesterday you almost made a point until you suggested I studied into IT.. Now I have studied into it and it only affirmed my belief.

Let's play connect the dots!

Matthew 24
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

(note that does not say killed, that is just speculation with no evidence. It clearly says TAKEN.. Taken where? To be with Jesus!)

1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

(So those who will be TAKEN UP.. Will be with the Lord Hence Matt 24:40-41 "TAKEN UP.. Paul just says CAUGHT UP"... It says COMFORT one another with these words..Not you will have to endure the great tribulation but you will NOT endure the great tribulation the Lord has already assured us of that!)

Luke 21 (Note this is AFTER Yeshua talks about the great tribulation you can read the whole chapter for context if you'd like but I want to point out a few key words)

34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.
35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
37 And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet.
38 Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.

(So we will ESCAPE these things .. What things? The great tribulation.. We will be "caught up" (as Paul says) or "taken up" (As Yeshua says).. We will be in the clouds and escape from these things.. Are there anymore Scriptures to let us know we will NOT endure the tribulation? Sure!!)

Revelation 3
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:
8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

(So... AGAIN we have the PROMISE from Yeshua Himself we will be "KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TRAIL WHICH SHALL COME UPON THE WHOLE WORLD" And some people are calling Yeshua a liar and saying Yeshua is preaching a false doctrine.)

So... What do we do? Believe man's lies saying we will endure the great tribulation or believe Yeshua?

(Note thanks for inviting me to investigate the Scriptures Watchmen)

If there is ANOTHER way to interpret these Scriptures please inform me on your interpretation.

Greetings.

But there is a big difference between wrath and tribulation. The Church has never been exempt from tribulation - quite the contrary. It is however protected from the wrath of God.

bygrace

 

[Definition_Christ]

Greetings.

But there is a big difference between wrath and tribulation. The Church has never been exempt from tribulation - quite the contrary. It is however protected from the wrath of God.

bygrace

Thank you. Yes exactly..

Revelation 15:1
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

We will not suffer through God's wrath (the Great tribulation). Just as Noah didn't suffer through God's wrath in the flood. He was protected.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I don't interpret Scripture privately, I interpret Scripture with Scripture. My point was you trust theologians more than the Bible even if it's a clear contradiction.

I also interpret scripture with scripture - that's why I was posting old testament scriptures to confirm that sword and fire are symbolic and the purpose of the witnesses has basis in the old testament. But you disagreed with them, and said Moses wasn't talking about the end times, yet still claim you interpret scripture with scripture, funny huh?

Yeah have you ever heard the term "false teacher"? That is when someone contradicts the Word of God, someone confronts them and they still continue to teach in error.

Only when you do an honest search on the origins of the pre-trib rapture view i.e. who first taught it, and how it spread through christianity and what time periods, have you any right to talk about false teachers. Let's face it - you didn't come up with the pre trib rapture theory all on your lonesome, you heard it from someone, or read it from someone, and they heard or read it from someone else etc etc.. it all started with one man (or woman, hint hint) somewhere - so look it up.

I think that you are very ignorant for even asking the question. God doesn't work by the time or way of men. He works according to His will. It's not some *new truth* it's clearly taught in the bible.

If it's so clearly taught in the bible as you claim, why doesn't every christian believe in it, and why is it a topic of argument? As I said before, do a study on the origins of the pre trib view.

And...
It really makes no sense to me you would say "you have to use your brain". You have to use your brain to decide what is symbolic and literal? So if you just have to use your brain. You are saying interpretation of ALL Scripture is simply subjective. Therefore there is no objective interpretation of any Scripture at all because it is all subjective. It is just my opinion vs your opinion. Meaning you couldn't prove by using the Bible Yeshua really died on the Cross or not. You could argue "well Paul says we have to die daily to our flesh and have our own Cross to bare". So there would be absolutely no interpretation of Scripture at all making our faith in vain. Which is why you can't say "this is symbolic, and this is literal" otherwise you are committing a logical fallacy.You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between symbolic or literal because it is all subjective. Seeing how the Bible never says "this is symbolic" or "this is literal" you wouldn't be able to trust anything.

I understand the difference between different books of the bible. Paul's letters are obvioiusly literal - they are letters, as are the Gospels, which are mostly historical records. Revelation however describes a vision. And wherever you see a vision or any sort of revelation communicated via dream or trance (such as Peter with the unclean animals coming down in the sheet) the first thing you think is "symbolism".

Anyone who has any experience in dreams or visions, knows how symbolic they are. Imagine if Peter had interpreted his dream literally like you do Revelation. It's like if Peter said, "oh, that's nice, unclean animals can come down out of heaven in a bed sheet, so I don't have to go shopping or hunting or fishing anymore. " - missing the point entirely.

So does the concept of fire coming out of anyone's mouth mean anything to you? or is it just a nice entertaining thing which happens for no obvious reason or meaning? It just so happens that two witnesses of God are born with the remarkable ability to breath fire out of their mouth? Nothing particularly meaningful or strange about that?, they aren't able to use a military grade flamethrower or something?

2 Peter 1:20
that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation.

Exactly, that's why I consult more knowledgeable theologians and other resources. We are much more likely to be led astray by following our own interpretation of scripture alone, than by consulting a variety of bible commentaries and other resources as well.

 

[watchmen]

Greetings.

But there is a big difference between wrath and tribulation. The Church has never been exempt from tribulation - quite the contrary. It is however protected from the wrath of God.

bygrace

Welcome to CC bygrace. you are right as I have stated many times the Tribulation is not the wrath of God. The wrath of God is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ.