Rapture= false teaching

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charisenexcelcis

Guest
Matthew 24
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them,See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


Strongs
2411. hieron hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.


It just doesn't add up to me. Notice in the rest of Matt 24 Jesus proceeds to answer the three questions of verse 3 as one.


Compare Luke 21
5And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
They ask Him this time about the destruction of the temple and Christ goes to speak of the end of the world, thus it shall be at the end of the world when the temple is completely destroyed.



Also compare John 2
15And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Does anyone believe that they had sheep and oxen inside the central sanctuary itself?
Don't think when He drove them out He drove them out of the gates of the walls?

It seems odd, charisenexcelcis that you would want to include all the structures of the sanctuary yet exclude the wall structure, the most important part for protecting the temple. How could one be so selective? You consider it foundational, yet the foundation is the most important part of any structure.
Prophetic events, years apart, are often compressed in presentation so I would say the end of the world began when Jesus ascended. I don't consider a foundational wall an ediface, but that really isn't the point. The point is whether we a taking His words, expressed in normal human language, and forcing into stricter patterns than He intended. So, do the stones have to be dusted to prevent a tiny piece of one stone from being on the other? Of course not! How far do the "environs" go and what authority do we have to determine that? This is particularly true of prophecy. we apply our own version of Occham's razor, that the most reasonable explanation is the most likely explanation. You said "It doesn't make sense" regarding my view and I say pretty much say the same for you. That is Occum's razor. So, what I am saying is this, that I believe the destruction of Jesrusalem was sufficient to be seen as a fulfillment of that prophecy.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
Mikre, nice illustration.
 
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miktre

Guest
Prophetic events, years apart, are often compressed in presentation so I would say the end of the world began when Jesus ascended. I don't consider a foundational wall an ediface, but that really isn't the point. The point is whether we a taking His words, expressed in normal human language, and forcing into stricter patterns than He intended. So, do the stones have to be dusted to prevent a tiny piece of one stone from being on the other? Of course not! How far do the "environs" go and what authority do we have to determine that? This is particularly true of prophecy. we apply our own version of Occham's razor, that the most reasonable explanation is the most likely explanation. You said "It doesn't make sense" regarding my view and I say pretty much say the same for you. That is Occum's razor. So, what I am saying is this, that I believe the destruction of Jesrusalem was sufficient to be seen as a fulfillment of that prophecy.
I wouldn't call the especially large course of stones is visible on the southern and western walls today "dusting". On the west the "Master Course" consists of four stones, the largest of which weighs 570 tons and is 44 feet long, 10 feet high and 12-16 feet deep. The next largest stone in the wall is a mere 40 feet long. The largest stone in the Great Pyramid weighs 11 tons. Did you not think Christ knew this and spoke of this impossible task? The Roman army could never move these stones, I doubt we could remove them today.
He said "

" See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
He speaks of total and absolute destruction of the temple. Hardly a Occum's razor. How can one pick parts of the temple at their own discretion? He gave it to us as a sign and it's still there.
You would haft to believe that the great tribulation is either over or we are in the great tribulation or else you run into more problems with scripture. I can show you the scriptures, it just keeps getting crazier and crazier to explain it away.
 
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miktre

Guest
Mikre, nice illustration.
This is the picture I wanted to post.



2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
I wouldn't call the especially large course of stones is visible on the southern and western walls today "dusting". On the west the "Master Course" consists of four stones, the largest of which weighs 570 tons and is 44 feet long, 10 feet high and 12-16 feet deep. The next largest stone in the wall is a mere 40 feet long. The largest stone in the Great Pyramid weighs 11 tons. Did you not think Christ knew this and spoke of this impossible task? The Roman army could never move these stones, I doubt we could remove them today.
He said "
" See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
He speaks of total and absolute destruction of the temple. Hardly a Occum's razor. How can one pick parts of the temple at their own discretion? He gave it to us as a sign and it's still there.
You would haft to believe that the great tribulation is either over or we are in the great tribulation or else you run into more problems with scripture. I can show you the scriptures, it just keeps getting crazier and crazier to explain it away.
I think that you misuderstood what I said about Ockham's Razor, but that is unimportant. Any stone that has been placed by human hand can be thrown down by human hand. That sounds a bit anecdotal. I'm not convinced that what you are talking about constitutes part of what he was saying. What I believe is this--this isn't worldwide tribulation. It is to be trouble unlike any ever seen and I don't see that at this time. It is getting crazier--like the birthpangs of the woman. In any case, you have to get over thinking that just because someone disagrees with you they are either ignorant, jaded, or self-deluded.
 
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sword

Guest
On the Revelation book Martin Luther also said:


Moreover he (the author) seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly -- indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important -- and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep.
Many of the fathers also rejected this book a long time ago; 9 although St. Jerome, to be sure, refers to it in exalted terms and says that it is above all praise and that there are as many mysteries in it as words. Still, Jerome cannot prove this at all, and his praise at numerous places is too generous.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
On the Revelation book Martin Luther also said:


Moreover he (the author) seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly -- indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important -- and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep.
Many of the fathers also rejected this book a long time ago; 9 although St. Jerome, to be sure, refers to it in exalted terms and says that it is above all praise and that there are as many mysteries in it as words. Still, Jerome cannot prove this at all, and his praise at numerous places is too generous.
He disliked James also, but translated both of them. It's a little late to reconsider the canon don't you think?
 
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miktre

Guest
. In any case, you have to get over thinking that just because someone disagrees with you they are either ignorant, jaded, or self-deluded.
Sorry if it seems that way, for you've been very polite. I might somewhat defensive considering the rudeness one runs into when doing a study of this nature.
More is to come. :D
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
Sorry if it seems that way, for you've been very polite. I might somewhat defensive considering the rudeness one runs into when doing a study of this nature.
More is to come. :D
Yeah, my post was a little over the top on that. Sorry, I didn't mean it that way.
 
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miktre

Guest
MATTHEW 24 KJV

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

I can't see how some mean this to be telling the disciples to flee in 70 AD when clearly there is no subject change, for in verse 21 it tells you its the great tribulation. The whole chapter of Matthew 24 is taught as one.

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
MATTHEW 24 KJV

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

I can't see how some mean this to be telling the disciples to flee in 70 AD when clearly there is no subject change, for in verse 21 it tells you its the great tribulation. The whole chapter of Matthew 24 is taught as one.

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
I believe that it is like viewing a mountain chain from afar, the mountains all seem like they are the same distance away when some might be hundreds of miles closer or further. This is the part that stands out most to me: Matt. 24:14 And the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all nations, and then the end shall come.
I think this sets for us an eschatological imperative--to preach the gospel to every nation. This is one of the few essential elements to every eschatology.
 
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NewJerusalem

Guest
I believe that it is like viewing a mountain chain from afar, the mountains all seem like they are the same distance away when some might be hundreds of miles closer or further. This is the part that stands out most to me: Matt. 24:14 And the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all nations, and then the end shall come.
I think this sets for us an eschatological imperative--to preach the gospel to every nation. This is one of the few essential elements to every eschatology.

Charisenexcelcis and Miktre..... am I understanding you to have somewhat of a fulfilled eschatology? regarding Matt 24, Luke 21, etc?

thanks, :)
 
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greatkraw

Guest
This is the picture I wanted to post.



2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not beleft here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Thank you for the picture, it illustrates my point. If you have been to the temple mount you should have taken a tour and listened to what you were told rather than looking at everything through the hazy glasses of your own opinion.

Herod built up the temple mount into a huge platform - you can see that level in the picture. The temple building and annexes sat on top - see picture - when the temple was destroyed all the buidings were demolished but the table top was left. This is the temple mount today. The western retaining wall is the thing you visited. All the other retaining walls exist also.

It is an interesting story WHY the temple was pulled apart stone by stone especially considering the Roman officer originally ordered it to be preserved - I will let someone else tell you about that (or you could have listened to the tour guide) :D
 
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oopsies

Guest
Thank you for the picture, it illustrates my point. If you have been to the temple mount you should have taken a tour and listened to what you were told rather than looking at everything through the hazy glasses of your own opinion.

Herod built up the temple mount into a huge platform - you can see that level in the picture. The temple building and annexes sat on top - see picture - when the temple was destroyed all the buidings were demolished but the table top was left. This is the temple mount today. The western retaining wall is the thing you visited. All the other retaining walls exist also.

It is an interesting story WHY the temple was pulled apart stone by stone especially considering the Roman officer originally ordered it to be preserved - I will let someone else tell you about that (or you could have listened to the tour guide) :D
I want to go visit! But it's so expensive :(
 
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ozell

Guest
The Bible says

Rv 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

the Lord said again

Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

are we part of the world?

then it will come upon us who have not the understanding of the Lord place of safety.
 
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oopsies

Guest
if you go I will put you on to a christian tour guide

gallilee is wonderful:D:D:D
It's $5,000 USD!!! argh >.< Actually, more for me. I have to drive down to SeaTac, then take a flight to Atlanta or New York. Then take another flight to Israel... lol
 
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miktre

Guest
Thank you for the picture, it illustrates my point. If you have been to the temple mount you should have taken a tour and listened to what you were told rather than looking at everything through the hazy glasses of your own opinion.

Herod built up the temple mount into a huge platform - you can see that level in the picture. The temple building and annexes sat on top - see picture - when the temple was destroyed all the buidings were demolished but the table top was left. This is the temple mount today. The western retaining wall is the thing you visited. All the other retaining walls exist also.

It is an interesting story WHY the temple was pulled apart stone by stone especially considering the Roman officer originally ordered it to be preserved - I will let someone else tell you about that (or you could have listened to the tour guide) :D
You bought into the false fulfilment of prophecy by the the tin hat Titus.
Table top that was left? When you go to build a temple, what do you build first? The foundation of course. Now you want to exclude the most important part of the structure, it's very foundation. Christ was very emphatic when He sai
d:
See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Haggai 2:18 (King James Version)


18Consider now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, even from the day that the foundation of the LORD's temple was laid, consider it.



Zechariah 8:9 (King James Version)


9Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Let your hands be strong, ye that hear in these days these words by the mouth of the prophets, which were in the day that the foundation of the house of the LORD of hosts was laid, that the temple might be built.






Also you speak in ignorance of the western wall.

Quote:
In Judaism, the Western Wall is venerated as the sole remnant of the Holy Temple. It has become a place of pilgrimage for Jews, as it is the closest permitted accessible site to the holiest spot in Judaism, namely the Even ha-shetiya or Foundation Stone, which lies on the Temple Mount. According to one rabbinic opinion, Jews may not set foot upon the Temple Mount and doing so is a sin punishable by Kareth. While almost all historians and archaeologists and most rabbinical authorities believe that the rocky outcrop in the Dome of the Rock is the Foundation Stone,[59] some rabbis say it is located directly opposite the exposed section of the Western Wall, near the El-kas fountain.[60] This spot was the site of the Holy of Holies when the Temple stood.
Jewish tradition teaches that the Western Wall was built by King David and that the wall we see today is built upon his foundations, which date from the time of the First Temple.[61] Jewish midrashic texts compiled in Late Antiquity refer to a western wall of the Temple which “would never be destroyed.”[3] Some scholars were of the opinion that this referred to a wall of the Temple itself which has long since vanished. Others believed that the wall still stood and was actually a surviving wall of the Temple courtyard. However, today there is no doubt that the wall is the western retaining wall of the Temple Mount and the Midrash refers to the Temple in its broader sense, that is, the Temple Mount.[12] Jewish sources teach that when Roman Emperor Vespasian ordered the destruction of the Temple, he ordered Pangar, Duke of Arabia, to destroy the Western Wall. Pangar however could not destroy the wall because of God's promise that the Wall will never be destroyed. When asked by Titus why he did not destroy it, Pangar replied that it would stand as a reminder of what Titus had conquered. He was duly executed.[62] There is a tradition that states that when water starts trickling through the stones of the Wall, it is a signal of the advent of the Messiah.[63][64]
Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Kaindenover discusses the mystical aspect of the Hebrew word kotel when discussing the significance of praying against a wall. He cites the Zohar which writes that the word kotel, meaning wall, is made up of two parts: "Ko", which has the numerical value of God’s name, and "Tel", meaning mount, which refers to the Temple and its Western Wall.[65]
Jewish sources, including the Zohar, write that the Divine Presence rests upon the Western Wall.[66] The Midrash quotes a fourth century scholar: “Rav Acha said that the Divine Presence has never moved away from the Western Wall”.[67] 18th century scholar Jonathan Eybeschutz writes that “after the destruction of the Temple, God removed His Presence from His sanctuary and placed it upon the Western Wall where it remains in its holiness and honour”.[68] It is told that great Jewish sages, including Isaac Luria and the Radvaz, experienced a revelation of the Divine Presence at the wall.[69]
 
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sword

Guest
He disliked James also, but translated both of them. It's a little late to reconsider the canon don't you think?
Why? Martin Luther concluded:

Finally, let everyone think of it as his own spirit leads him. My spirit cannot accommodate itself to this book (the revelation book). For me this is reason enough not to think highly of it: Christ is neither taught nor known in it. But to teach Christ, this is the thing which an apostle is bound above all else to do; as Christ says in Acts 1, "You shall be my witnesses." Therefore I stick to the books which present Christ to me clearly and purely.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
Charisenexcelcis and Miktre..... am I understanding you to have somewhat of a fulfilled eschatology? regarding Matt 24, Luke 21, etc?

thanks, :)
In my case, no. I believe that we should be seeking to preach the "gospel of the kingdom" to every nation in anticipation of the return of our Lord, Jesus Christ.