Rapture= false teaching

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Jan 14, 2010
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the ONLY way the Bride of Christ will be purified is through fire.

the Holy Spirit is NOT the restrainer... and it cannot and will not be removed.

3 reasons...
1.) Psalm 139:6-12
2.) Ephesians 1:11-13
3.) 1 Corinthians 12:1-3

secondly, the restrainer is a HE... not a "she"... Christ has ALWAYS described the church as a female, or a bride...

thirdly, it's not only a "he" that is withholding... read 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7:

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


there are TWO forces at work... not just one.
 
Jan 14, 2010
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fourthly, the word "withholdeth" in the Greek language literally means to physically restrain... these two forces have to be in the same realm where Satan is to physically restrain him from coming to the earth.

we are NOT physically restraining the Antichrist
 
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greatkraw

Guest
the ONLY way the Bride of Christ will be purified is through fire.

the Holy Spirit is NOT the restrainer... and it cannot and will not be removed.

3 reasons...
1.) Psalm 139:6-12
2.) Ephesians 1:11-13
3.) 1 Corinthians 12:1-3

secondly, the restrainer is a HE... not a "she"... Christ has ALWAYS described the church as a female, or a bride...

thirdly, it's not only a "he" that is withholding... read 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7:

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


there are TWO forces at work... not just one.
Exactly, HE is the Holy Spirit

the ONLY way the Bride of Christ will be purified is through fire.

exactly, and since most of the Bride is already in heaven it will have to happen there

If any one's work is burnt up, he will suffer the loss of it; yet he will himself be rescued, but only, as it were, by passing through the fire.
 
Jan 14, 2010
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from the Earth He can be removed when the Bride is removed

When He was given is when the Bride was begun.
WRONG.

what you describe is the end of the Age, not some secret rapture...

Psalm 139:6-12
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. 7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.


the Holy Spirit is EVERYWHERE... it CANNOT be removed.


Ephesians 1:11-13
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Christians are sealed with the Holy Spirit.


1 Corinthians 12:1-3
1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.




pre-trib says the Holy Spirit is gonna be removed, but during the great tribulation, there will be ppl who will become Christians... this is impossible because in order for one to become a Christian, they are filled by the Holy Spirit, and if the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, then every single Christian during the great tribulation must be raptured, since the Holy Spirit cannot have its presence on the earth...


your doctrine is just one loophole after another.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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just looked up what some old time protestant theologians and bible scholars thought about this:

Wesley:

Only he that restraineth - That is, the potentate who successively has Rome in his power. The emperors, heathen or Christian; the kings, Goths or Lombards; the Carolingian or German emperors.

PNT:

Only he who now letteth. He that hindereth must first be taken out of the way. There was no room for an arrogant spiritual power in Rome as long as imperial Rome continued to persecute the church. A persecuted church cannot be a haughty church. Two things were needful before the papal power could be developed; viz., the overthrow of paganism, and the removal of the capital of the Empire from Rome. When these things were done, it was free to seize the old Roman scepter.

Gill:

only he who now letteth, will let, until he be taken out of the way; that is, the Roman empire and Roman emperors, and which were by degrees entirely removed, and so made way for the revelation of this wicked one: and which was done partly by Constantine the emperor receiving the Christian faith, whereby the Roman empire as Pagan ceased; and by increasing the riches of the church, and feeding the pride, ambition, and covetousness of the bishops, especially the bishop of Rome; and next by removing the seat of the empire from Rome to Byzantium, which he called Constantinople: here the Greek emperors continued in succession, and neither they themselves, nor even their exarchs, resided at Rome, but at Ravenna; so that way was made for antichrist to come to his seat, and there was nothing to rival and eclipse the grandeur, power, and glory of the Roman popes: and that which let was also taken out of the way, by the division of the empire, by Theodosius, giving to his elder son Arcadius, the eastern, and to the younger, Honorius, the western parts of it: the eastern empire was in process of time seized upon and possessed by Mahomet and the Saracens; and the western empire was overrun by the Goths, Vandals, and Huns, and became extinct about the year 476, in Augustulus, the last of the Roman emperors, who was obliged to abdicate the government by Odoacer king of the Heruli; when the kingdom of the Lombards took place in Italy, and afterwards that was translated to Charles the great, king of the French; so that there was nothing more of the Roman empire remaining than the bare name, as at this day; and by this means the popes of Rome got to the height of their power and glory, which is meant by the revelation of the man of sin.

Barnes:

Will let, until he be taken out of the way - This will be an effectual check on these corruptions, preventing their full development, until it is removed, and then the man of sin will appear. The supposition which will best suit this language is, that there was then some civil restraint, preventing the development of existing corruptions, but that there would be a removal, or withdrawing of that restraint; and that then the tendency of the existing corruptions would be seen. It is evident, as Oldshausen remarks, that this resisting or restraining power must be something out of the church, and distinguished from the anti-Christian tendency itself; yon der Kirche und vom Antichristenthum. It is necessary, therefore, to understand this of the restraints of civil power. Was there, then, any fact in history which will accord with this interpretation? The belief among the primitive Christians was, that what hindered the rise of the man of sin was the Roman empire, and therefore "they prayed for its peace and welfare, as knowing that when the Roman empire should be dissolved and broken in pieces, the empire of the man of sin would be raised on its ruins."




You can see, that none of these say that the one taken away is the Holy Spirit.

But I think here is the correct answer:

The belief among the primitive Christians was, that what hindered the rise of the man of sin was the Roman empire, and therefore "they prayed for its peace and welfare, as knowing that when the Roman empire should be dissolved and broken in pieces, the empire of the man of sin would be raised on its ruins."


The funny thing is pre-tribbers claim their belief is based upon the bible which is 2000 years old, but don't accept the beliefs of the primitive christian church , preferring to believe their modern day doctrines.
 
Jan 14, 2010
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but then again, this discussion with you is a waste of time, greatkraw...
you judge me and accuse me of being a non-believer simply because i dont believe pre-trib, AND you accuse others of being non-believers because they dont follow pre-trib.

who's the one that accuses the brethren day and night again?... Revelation 12:7-12
 
Jan 14, 2010
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just looked up what some old time protestant theologians and bible scholars thought about this:

Wesley:

Only he that restraineth - That is, the potentate who successively has Rome in his power. The emperors, heathen or Christian; the kings, Goths or Lombards; the Carolingian or German emperors.

PNT:

Only he who now letteth. He that hindereth must first be taken out of the way. There was no room for an arrogant spiritual power in Rome as long as imperial Rome continued to persecute the church. A persecuted church cannot be a haughty church. Two things were needful before the papal power could be developed; viz., the overthrow of paganism, and the removal of the capital of the Empire from Rome. When these things were done, it was free to seize the old Roman scepter.

Gill:

only he who now letteth, will let, until he be taken out of the way; that is, the Roman empire and Roman emperors, and which were by degrees entirely removed, and so made way for the revelation of this wicked one: and which was done partly by Constantine the emperor receiving the Christian faith, whereby the Roman empire as Pagan ceased; and by increasing the riches of the church, and feeding the pride, ambition, and covetousness of the bishops, especially the bishop of Rome; and next by removing the seat of the empire from Rome to Byzantium, which he called Constantinople: here the Greek emperors continued in succession, and neither they themselves, nor even their exarchs, resided at Rome, but at Ravenna; so that way was made for antichrist to come to his seat, and there was nothing to rival and eclipse the grandeur, power, and glory of the Roman popes: and that which let was also taken out of the way, by the division of the empire, by Theodosius, giving to his elder son Arcadius, the eastern, and to the younger, Honorius, the western parts of it: the eastern empire was in process of time seized upon and possessed by Mahomet and the Saracens; and the western empire was overrun by the Goths, Vandals, and Huns, and became extinct about the year 476, in Augustulus, the last of the Roman emperors, who was obliged to abdicate the government by Odoacer king of the Heruli; when the kingdom of the Lombards took place in Italy, and afterwards that was translated to Charles the great, king of the French; so that there was nothing more of the Roman empire remaining than the bare name, as at this day; and by this means the popes of Rome got to the height of their power and glory, which is meant by the revelation of the man of sin.

Barnes:

Will let, until he be taken out of the way - This will be an effectual check on these corruptions, preventing their full development, until it is removed, and then the man of sin will appear. The supposition which will best suit this language is, that there was then some civil restraint, preventing the development of existing corruptions, but that there would be a removal, or withdrawing of that restraint; and that then the tendency of the existing corruptions would be seen. It is evident, as Oldshausen remarks, that this resisting or restraining power must be something out of the church, and distinguished from the anti-Christian tendency itself; yon der Kirche und vom Antichristenthum. It is necessary, therefore, to understand this of the restraints of civil power. Was there, then, any fact in history which will accord with this interpretation? The belief among the primitive Christians was, that what hindered the rise of the man of sin was the Roman empire, and therefore "they prayed for its peace and welfare, as knowing that when the Roman empire should be dissolved and broken in pieces, the empire of the man of sin would be raised on its ruins."




You can see, that none of these say that the one taken away is the Holy Spirit.

But I think here is the correct answer:

The belief among the primitive Christians was, that what hindered the rise of the man of sin was the Roman empire, and therefore "they prayed for its peace and welfare, as knowing that when the Roman empire should be dissolved and broken in pieces, the empire of the man of sin would be raised on its ruins."


The funny thing is pre-tribbers claim their belief is based upon the bible which is 2000 years old, but don't accept the beliefs of the primitive christian church , preferring to believe their modern day doctrines.
there are other beliefs as well... one is that it is the Archangel Michael and his armies that are withholding Anticchrist back, which is what i hold to.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
as has been said many times - there were believers before the church age
there will be believers after the church age
BTW, God has not finished with israel

Once the time of the Gentiles is complete and the Church is in heaven - God will give his attention to them again.

You have accepted the heresy of replacement theology - the fruit of that is to reject Israel and to not understand the signs of the times
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
but then again, this discussion with you is a waste of time, greatkraw...
you judge me and accuse me of being a non-believer simply because i dont believe pre-trib, AND you accuse others of being non-believers because they dont follow pre-trib.

who's the one that accuses the brethren day and night again?... Revelation 12:7-12
I questioned your salvation mostly because of your aggressive, emotional and vitriloic language when discussing Bible Truth

The word is offensive to the ungodly.:)
 
Jan 14, 2010
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you have no right to either question or judge. (Matthew 7)
It is Christ and Christ alone that judges... and I know in my heart that I am saved.
I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt... but the thing is, you had the arrogance to question it... i don't question's people's salvation on here especially on the forum because i dont know you people in real life.

you don't have that authority and you dont have the right to make that judgment ... especially on here.
get off your high horse.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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(continued)
How this revolution was effected, may be seen by the statement of Machiavel. "The emperor of Rome, quitting Rome to dwell at Constantinople" (in the fourth century, under Constantine), "the Roman empire began to decline, but the church of Rome augmented as fast. Nevertheless, until the coming in of the Lombards, all Italy being under the dominion of either emperors or kings, the bishops assumed no more power than what was due to their doctrine and manners; in civil affairs they were subject to the civil power. But Theodoric, king of the Goths, fixing his seat at Ravenna, was that which advanced their interest, and made them more considerable in Italy, for there being no other prince left in Rome, the Romans were forced for protection to pay greater allegiance to the Pope. The Lombards having invaded and reduced Italy into several cantons, the Pope took the opportunity, and began to hold up his head. For being, as it were, governor and principal of Rome, the emperor of Constantinople and the Lombards bare him a respect, so that the Romans (by mediation of their Pope) began to treat and confederate with Longinus (the emperor’s lieutenant), and the Lombards, not as subjects, but as equals and companions; which said custom continuing, and the Pope’s entering into alliance sometimes with the Lombards, and sometimes with the Greeks, contracted great reputation to their dignity." (History of Florence, B. i., p. 6, of the English translation.) A more extended quotation on the same subject, may be seen in Newton on the Prophecies, pp. 407, 408. To anyone acquainted with the decline and fall of the Roman empire, nothing can be more manifest than the correspondence of the facts in history respecting the rise of the papacy, and the statement of the apostle Paul here. The simple facts are these:
(1) There were early corruptions in the church at Rome, as there were elsewhere, but peculiarly there, as Rome was the seat of philosophy and of power.
(2) there were great efforts made by the bishop of Rome to increase his authority, and there was a steady approximation to what he subsequently claimed - that of being Universal Bishop.
(3) there was a constant tendency to yield to him deference and respect in all matters.
(4) this was kept in check as long as Rome was the seat of the imperial power. Had that power remained there, it would have been impossible for the Roman Bishop ever to have obtained the civil and ecclesiastical eminence which he ultimately did. Rome could not have had two heads, both claiming and exercising supreme power; and there never could have been a "revelation of the man of sin."
(5) Constantine removed the seat of empire to Constantinople; and this removal or "taking away" of the only restraint on the ambitious projects of the Roman bishops, gave all the opportunity which could be desired for the growth of the papal power. In all history there cannot, probably, be found a series of events corresponding more accurately with a prophetic statement than this; and there is every evidence, therefore, that these are the events to which the Spirit of inspiration referred.
 
H

HumbleSaint

Guest
Those who believe there's no rapture at all are a minority so we generally keep quiet :).

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect form the four winds, form the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Mark 13:27

Its pretty clear that there is a rapture. But its right after the tribulation. I don't plan to stay on earth will God pours out his wrath and destroys it with fire.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Gathering doesn't mean flying up into the sky. They may be gathered on the earth. The word for gather there just means collect. The angel said:

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


In other words, when Jesus returns, peoples feet will be planted firmly on the ground as he comes down to the ground to meet them.


But I agree it happens after tribultion.

I used to think there was a rapture too, until I dug a little deeper into what early christians believed, and what the bible really says. You know it's one of those things you are told all your life to accept as fact, but when you research it you find there's little biblical evidence for it.
 
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HumbleSaint

Guest
It says in thessalonians that we will be cought up to meat him in the air. So maybe rapture isn't the word to use, but I don't think we will have are earthly bodies, because then it says that we shall forever be with Him. And why would be stay on the earth if its going to be burnt up?
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
from the Earth He can be removed when the Bride is removed

When He was given is when the Bride was begun.
In Ezekiel there is a vison of the presence of God leaving the temple. In Samuel a child was named Ebenezer, meaning the glory has departed. So, the manifest presence of God can be removed.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Rapture is the right word.


http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/a/whatisrapture_3.htm

The term "Rapture" first became popular in the United States toward the end of the 19th century through the teachings on premillennialism and dipensationalism by John Nelson Darby, an Irish evangelist. The rapture theory continued to grow in popularity among evangelicals largely due to a preacher named William Eugene Blackstone (1841-1935). His book, Jesus is Coming, sold more than one million copies.

In the late 1960's and 1970's, during the Jesus Movement, the Rapture theory made its way into many popular secular songs such as Are You Ready? by Pacific Gas & Electric and In The Year 2525 by Zager and Evans.
The Rapture theory gained even greater interest during this time due to the books of Hal Lindsey. In The Late Great Planet Earth Lindsey predicted an imminent Rapture based on global conditions at the time.
In 1972 Russell S. Doughten produced a four-part movie series beginning with A Thief in the Night. The film recorded the events surrounding the Rapture in a terrifying way, creating widespread public interest in the theory.
In 1991 the film The Rapture, with Mimi Rogers was released. It recorded one woman's experience through the Rapture.
Currently, the very popular Christian book series, based on the events surrounding the Rapture is the Left Behind series, by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins.



I suggest that a main reason why we don't really see evidence of the nature or timing of the rapture debated in the early christian church is because no one really believed in it.
 
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HumbleSaint

Guest
No, I completely understand, I used to believe in the pre-trib as well. Then through doing research I found out that it is at the end of the tribulation. And the Bible says in the 2 verses that I posted above that the earth is going to burn. and In thessalonians It says at The Lords comming, which will be at the end of the Tribulation according to Mark 13, we will be caught up to meet Him. Hey you know that is just what the Bible says.

I fear for the people who believe that the Lord will not come from the sky at the sound of the trump, because Jesus said that if any man say Lo, here or Lo there ,that we are not to believe it, because as the lightning flashes from the east to the west that is how fast the coming of Jesus will be. So to them that don't think that the Lord will come out of the sky, I fear for them, and to those who think that they will be taken before the tribulation, I fear for them as well.