Rapture

[NayborBear]

Lets face reality about the whole rapture debate on this site. Most posters are Pre Tribbers. And nothing including hard scriptural evidence will convince them otherwise. So its a waste of time and energy going over the same ground over and over again. All I can say is that apart from a very few disputed passages from the church fathers mainly copied from Irenaeus most Christians apart from the Thessalonians and Corinthians had no knowledge of the belief prior to 1830. I conclude that people like Luther and the Wesley brothers or anyone else were not guided by the Holy Spirit because there is no mention of it in their sermons or writings. Spurgeon condemned it so we can include him as well. If this is your conclusion good luck with it.

I realize there are some in the BDF that "deflect" their "personal accountability", of living this life on earth, by their giving of their oil (like foolish virgins), "waiting for the rapture!" Then, spend hour upon countless hours:
2 Timothy 2
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Like Paul? I say this to their shame! Inasmuch as the the traditions of men have grown the void to such an extent, that this rapture program, is ALL they can hope FOR!
Isaiah 29
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: RAPTURE?
C'mon man!
One doesn't have to look out one's window very far, in seeing, that like in the days of Noah? It's raining tribulation! Boats are "floating!" Rapture people? Well? They are still WAITING! As Jesus said, He comes like a "thief in the night?" And, this is why it breaks my heart to even say this. They won't know til afterwards! But, then? It'll be too late!
Isaiah 28
14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

They'll keep on giving and taking in marriage. Making merry! Waiting.....and waiting....and waiting....and drowning....and waiting....donning scuba gear....and waiting...and waiting!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

When Jesus spoke regarding Himself, He said "Behold, I come as a thief." ["as a thief. [PERIOD]"] No "in the night" words accompany the phrase when He is speaking regarding HIMSELF:

Revelation 16 [blb] -

10 And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast, and its kingdom became darkened, and they were gnawing their tongues for the distress, 11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven on account of their distresses, and on account of their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.
12 And the sixth poured out his bowl upon the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way might be prepared of the kings of the rising of the sun.
13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits, like frogs; 14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go forth to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them together unto the battle of the great day of God the Almighty.
15 “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one watching and keeping his garments, so that he should not walk naked and they might see his shame.”
16 And he gathered them together unto the place called in Hebrew Armageddon.

[compare this passage coupled w/Rev19:19-21/20:5a WITH THAT OF Isaiah 24:21-22[23] and ITS TWO "PUNISH" words separated by the phrase (and timing of) "and AFTER MANY DAYS" (meaning, the first "punish" parallel time-wise with the Armageddon/Second-Coming-to-the-earth time frame, and the second "punish" word correlating with the GWTj 1000-yrs later, that is, following the MK age [the "and after many days"])

So at the time of Jesus' Second Coming to the earth, He speaks of HIMSELF [His Own Person] coming "AS A THIEF." [period. With NO "IN THE NIGHT" phrase attached to this.]

Where the phrase says "shall so come as a thief IN THE NIGHT" (with the "IN THE NIGHT" phrase accompanying this), it is referring to a very specific "TIME PERIOD" that will COMMENCE with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Oliver Discourse (namely, Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11, which come at the START of that very specific, future time period with much more to unfold upon the earth, from that point, and which "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" correlate with the SEALS of Revelation 6 at the START of the tribulation period, not at the end, like these "bowls" do, in the passage quoted above).

The two phrases "Behold, I am coming AS A THIEF." and "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief IN THE NIGHT" [starting with its INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" with many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" to FOLLOW ON FROM THERE] are wholly distinct things (and wholly distinct points of time, in the overall chronology).

Pre-tribbers (like myself) acknowledge He Himself will be coming "AS A THIEF. [period]" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom--with Matt24:29-31 correlating with Isaiah 27:12-13 "ye shall be gathered ONE by ONE, O ye children of Israel [to Jerusalem, the text states]" as opposed to how [we] "the Church which is His body" will experience OUR meeting[noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR when WE are "caught away/up" AS ONE [the "ONE BODY"]).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT to correct: "Olivet Discourse" (not Oliver, lol)

 

[Jackson123]

When Jesus spoke regarding Himself, He said "Behold, I come as a thief." ["as a thief. [PERIOD]"] No "in the night" words accompany the phrase when He is speaking regarding HIMSELF:

Revelation 16 [blb] -

10 And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast, and its kingdom became darkened, and they were gnawing their tongues for the distress, 11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven on account of their distresses, and on account of their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.
12 And the sixth poured out his bowl upon the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way might be prepared of the kings of the rising of the sun.
13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits, like frogs; 14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go forth to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them together unto the battle of the great day of God the Almighty.
15 “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one watching and keeping his garments, so that he should not walk naked and they might see his shame.”
16 And he gathered them together unto the place called in Hebrew Armageddon.

[compare this passage coupled w/Rev19:19-21/20:5a WITH THAT OF Isaiah 24:21-22[23] and ITS TWO "PUNISH" words separated by the phrase (and timing of) "and AFTER MANY DAYS" (meaning, the first "punish" parallel time-wise with the Armageddon/Second-Coming-to-the-earth time frame, and the second "punish" word correlating with the GWTj 1000-yrs later, that is, following the MK age [the "and after many days"])

So at the time of Jesus' Second Coming to the earth, He speaks of HIMSELF [His Own Person] coming "AS A THIEF." [period. With NO "IN THE NIGHT" phrase attached to this.]

Where the phrase says "shall so come as a thief IN THE NIGHT" (with the "IN THE NIGHT" phrase accompanying this), it is referring to a very specific "TIME PERIOD" that will COMMENCE with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Oliver Discourse (namely, Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11, which come at the START of that very specific, future time period with much more to unfold upon the earth, from that point, and which "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" correlate with the SEALS of Revelation 6 at the START of the tribulation period, not at the end, like these "bowls" do, in the passage quoted above).

The two phrases "Behold, I am coming AS A THIEF." and "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief IN THE NIGHT" [starting with its INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" with many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" to FOLLOW ON FROM THERE] are wholly distinct things (and wholly distinct points of time, in the overall chronology).

Pre-tribbers (like myself) acknowledge He Himself will be coming "AS A THIEF. [period]" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom--with Matt24:29-31 correlating with Isaiah 27:12-13 "ye shall be gathered ONE by ONE, O ye children of Israel [to Jerusalem, the text states]" as opposed to how [we] "the Church which is His body" will experience OUR meeting[noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR when WE are "caught away/up" AS ONE [the "ONE BODY"]).

So you believe Pre trib because He come like a thief?

And how to explain this verse

Matthew 24:29-30 King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Immediately after tribulation not before.

Is that possible that after tribulation also like a thief?

To me It is possible.

The second coming of Jesus is after He die oN the cross.

So we know when His second coming time frame, but we do not know exactly time and hour.

Same with matt 24:29

Jesus say He Will come oN the cloud immediately after tribulation, oN the history frame, immediately can be a day or a week, Jesus not give a specific time, like an hour or 10 days after tribulation.

When a thief come at night, we do not know what time, but we expect he come at night.

So be prepare.

Seem to me your argument is base oN we do not know exact time and you believe If Jesus come after tribulation we know exactly time.

My argument is base oN

1. Jesus Himself say that He come immediately after, not before tribulation

2. After tribulation do not mean we know the exact time.

 

[NayborBear]

Lets face reality about the whole rapture debate on this site. Most posters are Pre Tribbers. And nothing including hard scriptural evidence will convince them otherwise. So its a waste of time and energy going over the same ground over and over again. All I can say is that apart from a very few disputed passages from the church fathers mainly copied from Irenaeus most Christians apart from the Thessalonians and Corinthians had no knowledge of the belief prior to 1830. I conclude that people like Luther and the Wesley brothers or anyone else were not guided by the Holy Spirit because there is no mention of it in their sermons or writings. Spurgeon condemned it so we can include him as well. If this is your conclusion good luck with it.

[hack, cough]

Yeah? You are quite correct sir! I mean, 1 post from Divine Watermark, in his discerning the "Day of the Lord", and being "caught up", or "gathering up", being 2 separate times, and "events", with the scriptures he provided? Got me quite dizzy! As I'm sure he is as well. Being quite content, in his "having it all figured out?"
I'll pass this on up the line! Of the which? I'm fairly certain they were just waiting on me to weary of banging my head against the "their delusion."
Which really "saddens me", is they have NO idea how this day of the Lord is going to unfold!
LOL! Hafta give mucho kudo's to God! For, when He deludes 'em? They stay deluded!

 

[NayborBear]

When Jesus spoke regarding Himself, He said "Behold, I come as a thief." ["as a thief. [PERIOD]"] No "in the night" words accompany the phrase when He is speaking regarding HIMSELF:

Revelation 16 [blb] -

10 And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast, and its kingdom became darkened, and they were gnawing their tongues for the distress, 11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven on account of their distresses, and on account of their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.
12 And the sixth poured out his bowl upon the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way might be prepared of the kings of the rising of the sun.
13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits, like frogs; 14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go forth to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them together unto the battle of the great day of God the Almighty.
15 “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one watching and keeping his garments, so that he should not walk naked and they might see his shame.”
16 And he gathered them together unto the place called in Hebrew Armageddon.

[compare this passage coupled w/Rev19:19-21/20:5a WITH THAT OF Isaiah 24:21-22[23] and ITS TWO "PUNISH" words separated by the phrase (and timing of) "and AFTER MANY DAYS" (meaning, the first "punish" parallel time-wise with the Armageddon/Second-Coming-to-the-earth time frame, and the second "punish" word correlating with the GWTj 1000-yrs later, that is, following the MK age [the "and after many days"])

So at the time of Jesus' Second Coming to the earth, He speaks of HIMSELF [His Own Person] coming "AS A THIEF." [period. With NO "IN THE NIGHT" phrase attached to this.]

Where the phrase says "shall so come as a thief IN THE NIGHT" (with the "IN THE NIGHT" phrase accompanying this), it is referring to a very specific "TIME PERIOD" that will COMMENCE with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Oliver Discourse (namely, Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11, which come at the START of that very specific, future time period with much more to unfold upon the earth, from that point, and which "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" correlate with the SEALS of Revelation 6 at the START of the tribulation period, not at the end, like these "bowls" do, in the passage quoted above).

The two phrases "Behold, I am coming AS A THIEF." and "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief IN THE NIGHT" [starting with its INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" with many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" to FOLLOW ON FROM THERE] are wholly distinct things (and wholly distinct points of time, in the overall chronology).

Pre-tribbers (like myself) acknowledge He Himself will be coming "AS A THIEF. [period]" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom--with Matt24:29-31 correlating with Isaiah 27:12-13 "ye shall be gathered ONE by ONE, O ye children of Israel [to Jerusalem, the text states]" as opposed to how [we] "the Church which is His body" will experience OUR meeting[noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR when WE are "caught away/up" AS ONE [the "ONE BODY"]).

I do offer my apologies, in misquoting Jesus! Not something, I tend to do!

My only "excuse?" My ignorance!

I "tried" Lord! Forgive me, Lord, for thinking I could "break through" to some of 'em! That it is more for their protection, You have done this! Amen!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So you believe Pre trib because He come like a thief?
And how to explain this verse
Matthew 24:29-30 King James Version (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Immediately after tribulation not before.
Is that possible that after tribulation also like a thief?
To me It is possible.
The second coming of Jesus is after He die oN the cross.
So we know when His second coming time frame, but we do not know exactly time and hour.

Same with matt 24:29
Jesus say He Will come oN the cloud immediately after tribulation, oN the history frame, immediately can be a day or a week, Jesus not give a specific time, like an hour or 10 days after tribulation.
When a thief come at night, we do not know what time, but we expect he come at night.
So be prepare.

Seem to me your argument is base oN we do not know exact time and you believe If Jesus come after tribulation we know exactly time.
My argument is base oN
1. Jesus Himself say that He come immediately after, not before tribulation
2. After tribulation do not mean we know the exact time.

No, that has not been my argument.

My argument concerns context and also chronology ("what" happens IN RELATION [time-wise] TO "what other" things).

So you believe Pre trib because He come like a thief?

No, that is not the point I labored to make.

Try reading my post again.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The phrase "the Day of the Lord" and its related phrase "IN THAT DAY" (when found in same context refer to same time period) is defined by its usages in the OT. These phrases are ALSO found (used together) in 2 Thess 1 and 2, where it is made clear that it is a "time period" of some duration [not merely a singular 24-hr day], and that the Thessalonians were being corrected by Paul, when he was saying to them (basically) "don't believe anyone trying to convince you that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT..." it isn't (and he explains "WHY" it is not so). It was EASY for them to be CONVINCED that "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" because of their PRESENT and ONGOING, NEGATIVE circumstances they were presently ENDURING (over some time), 2Th1:4 etc. He is rectifying their wrong beliefs (being wrongly convinced of), and saying, believe what WE taught you INSTEAD (2Th2:15, the other bracketed end of the entire CONTEXT here, of chpts 1 AND 2).

 

[Jackson123]

No, that has not been my argument.

My argument concerns context and also chronology ("what" happens IN RELATION [time-wise] TO "what other" things).



No, that is not the point I labored to make.

Try reading my post again.

So how you explain, why the Lord Jesus say immediately after tribulation He appear in the cloud, why not immediately before tribulation.

 

[Absolutely]

So you believe Pre trib because He come like a thief?

And how to explain this verse

Matthew 24:29-30 King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Immediately after tribulation not before.

Is that possible that after tribulation also like a thief?

To me It is possible.

The second coming of Jesus is after He die oN the cross.

So we know when His second coming time frame, but we do not know exactly time and hour.

Same with matt 24:29

Jesus say He Will come oN the cloud immediately after tribulation, oN the history frame, immediately can be a day or a week, Jesus not give a specific time, like an hour or 10 days after tribulation.

When a thief come at night, we do not know what time, but we expect he come at night.

So be prepare.

Seem to me your argument is base oN we do not know exact time and you believe If Jesus come after tribulation we know exactly time.

My argument is base oN

1. Jesus Himself say that He come immediately after, not before tribulation

2. After tribulation do not mean we know the exact time.

We all believe Jesus comes back after the trib.
The rapture is not the same.
It happens before the trib

 

[Absolutely]

So how you explain, why the Lord Jesus say immediately after tribulation He appear in the cloud, why not immediately before tribulation.

Matt 25.
Rev 14
The dialogue at the last supper
They all compliment the pretrib rapture.
Post trib rapture cannot happen

 

[Absolutely]

When Jesus spoke regarding Himself, He said "Behold, I come as a thief." ["as a thief. [PERIOD]"] No "in the night" words accompany the phrase when He is speaking regarding HIMSELF:

Revelation 16 [blb] -

10 And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast, and its kingdom became darkened, and they were gnawing their tongues for the distress, 11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven on account of their distresses, and on account of their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.
12 And the sixth poured out his bowl upon the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way might be prepared of the kings of the rising of the sun.
13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits, like frogs; 14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go forth to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them together unto the battle of the great day of God the Almighty.
15 “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one watching and keeping his garments, so that he should not walk naked and they might see his shame.”
16 And he gathered them together unto the place called in Hebrew Armageddon.

[compare this passage coupled w/Rev19:19-21/20:5a WITH THAT OF Isaiah 24:21-22[23] and ITS TWO "PUNISH" words separated by the phrase (and timing of) "and AFTER MANY DAYS" (meaning, the first "punish" parallel time-wise with the Armageddon/Second-Coming-to-the-earth time frame, and the second "punish" word correlating with the GWTj 1000-yrs later, that is, following the MK age [the "and after many days"])

So at the time of Jesus' Second Coming to the earth, He speaks of HIMSELF [His Own Person] coming "AS A THIEF." [period. With NO "IN THE NIGHT" phrase attached to this.]

Where the phrase says "shall so come as a thief IN THE NIGHT" (with the "IN THE NIGHT" phrase accompanying this), it is referring to a very specific "TIME PERIOD" that will COMMENCE with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Oliver Discourse (namely, Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11, which come at the START of that very specific, future time period with much more to unfold upon the earth, from that point, and which "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" correlate with the SEALS of Revelation 6 at the START of the tribulation period, not at the end, like these "bowls" do, in the passage quoted above).

The two phrases "Behold, I am coming AS A THIEF." and "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief IN THE NIGHT" [starting with its INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" with many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" to FOLLOW ON FROM THERE] are wholly distinct things (and wholly distinct points of time, in the overall chronology).

Pre-tribbers (like myself) acknowledge He Himself will be coming "AS A THIEF. [period]" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom--with Matt24:29-31 correlating with Isaiah 27:12-13 "ye shall be gathered ONE by ONE, O ye children of Israel [to Jerusalem, the text states]" as opposed to how [we] "the Church which is His body" will experience OUR meeting[noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR when WE are "caught away/up" AS ONE [the "ONE BODY"]).

A thief NEVER comes announced,but unknowingly and a quick "in and out"
The thief leaves the scene.
In that thief verse he is pausing to tell us not to worry. Because he will have already taken his bride years earlier.
That Thief verse is not an event simultaneous to the gathering of kings to the slaughter.
We wont be gathered with sinners.

 

[Absolutely]

See that's yet another reason post trib rapture is boggus.
They have heathen kings gathered simultaneous to the bride
Plus ,in their interpretation ,the thief doesnt leave with his new items but sets himself up in the same house.
.....more impossibilities.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

A thief NEVER comes announced,but unknowingly and a quick "in and out"
The thief leaves the scene.
In that thief verse he is pausing to tell us not to worry. Because he will have already taken his bride years earlier.
That Thief verse is not an event simultaneous to the gathering of kings to the slaughter.
We wont be gathered with sinners.

You and I will likely continue to disagree on this point, nevertheless I will place my reasoning for the readers:

Rev16:14-16 - Armageddon timing/Second Coming to the earth (I disagree that He is taking a pause for a flashback)

Where "a thief" ALSO refers to His Second Coming to the earth [re: Himself]:

--Matthew 24:43-51, where [ALL] "Son of man cometh" phrase[-s] (v.44) refer to His Second Coming to the earth; where "in what watch" (v.43) speaks of the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect (of their "to be understood" thing, for lack of a better way of saying it at the moment); where also the "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" phrase (v.51), in all of its references, pertains to their non-entrance into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age (this does not occur at the time our Rapture occurs, to those not raptured/the unsaved, at that point in the chronology); where also the "BLESSED" (v.46) correlates with at least 10 other passages that also speak of ["BLESSED"] those ENTERING the earthly MK time period [as still-living/mortal persons] I've listed before (but can supply again if needed);...

--and which passage is parallel to other passages speaking of same time slot, including Luke 12:35-48 (see v.39 "in what hour the thief") which states, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal (see also G347 "shall sit down [used most often of 'at a table/around a meal']" in the Matthew 8:11 verse and its parallel [i.e. the MK])… [and here in Lk12:38-39/Matt24:43, as a side note not terribly pertinent to the discussion , I believe He is also supplying clues to those who will be living/existing in the trib as to where else in Scripture this answer is supplied, when He speaks of "the watch" (as in, 'the watches of the night')… as He also says, "if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come..." (which I believe He is saying of them, in that future time period, will be possible to know, IF they will but heed His Word [and/or those who will be bringing it, at that time]... but we know not everyone will do so)]

Hope this helps you see my perspective on this.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So how you explain, why the Lord Jesus say immediately after tribulation He appear in the cloud, why not immediately before tribulation.

First of all, we (as pre-tribbers) do believe He will appear at His Second Coming to the earth, where Matt24:29-31 says "the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". (I mentioned its correlation with Isaiah 27:12-13--see the context there)

The context of the Olivet Discourse (except for a few verses OF it in Lk21 about the 70ad events [21:12-24a]) is ALL about His Second Coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied earthly MK); the context of the Olivet Discourse is not covering the SUBJECT of our Rapture. Jesus had not YET spoken to His disciples anything about "Rapture," but He HAD ALREADY spoken to them about "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when the angels will "REAP"), and this is the BASIS of their Matt24:3 question to Him, and His answer which follows in both chpts of Matt24 and 25 (all of it speaking of His Second Coming to the earth, and the very specific, limited time period leading UP TO that, which will [in the future] COMMENCE with "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" Jesus described in Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11 and which correlate with the SEALS of Rev6 at the START of that future time period [with Rev1:1's "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" confirming this; and with Matt24:4/Mk13:5's "G5100 [tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE']" being the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; see also 1Th5:2-3]" i.e. SEAL #1 at the START of the trib/7-yrs/70th-Wk]).

Hope that somewhat helps you see my perspective on this. [none of the above passages are speaking of our Rapture, per context]

 

[Noose]

First of all, we (as pre-tribbers) do believe He will appear at His Second Coming to the earth, where Matt24:29-31 says "the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". (I mentioned its correlation with Isaiah 27:12-13--see the context there)

The context of the Olivet Discourse (except for a few verses OF it in Lk21 about the 70ad events [21:12-24a]) is ALL about His Second Coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied earthly MK); the context of the Olivet Discourse is not covering the SUBJECT of our Rapture. Jesus had not YET spoken to His disciples anything about "Rapture," but He HAD ALREADY spoken to them about "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when the angels will "REAP"), and this is the BASIS of their Matt24:3 question to Him, and His answer which follows in both chpts of Matt24 and 25 (all of it speaking of His Second Coming to the earth, and the very specific, limited time period leading UP TO that, which will [in the future] COMMENCE with "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" Jesus described in Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11 and which correlate with the SEALS of Rev6 at the START of that future time period [with Rev1:1's "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" confirming this; and with Matt24:4/Mk13:5's "G5100 [tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE']" being the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; see also 1Th5:2-3]" i.e. SEAL #1 at the START of the trib/7-yrs/70th-Wk]).

Hope that somewhat helps you see my perspective on this. [none of the above passages are speaking of our Rapture, per context]

This issue about second coming of Jesus in glory and with the clouds of heaven is just a humongous misunderstanding from the likes of you. That phrase has been used several times and in some instances, we can tell it is not a physical happening but a spiritual one which requires deep understanding. This one here:

Matt 26:
63But Jesus remained silent.

Then the high priest said to Him, “I charge You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64“You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


Q. Did those in the court room see Jesus coming with clouds of heaven from that moment on?

 

[Jackson123]

We all believe Jesus comes back after the trib.
The rapture is not the same.
It happens before the trib

How do you know rapture before tribulation.

Rapture is happen when Jesus and us gathering together. This verse say It Will not happen before that man of sin reveal,

That mean man of sin first than rapture.

Man of sin is the antichrist, who Will rule in time of tribulation.

So tribulation first than rapture not all the way around.

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, exceptthat man of sin there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[Noose]

How do you know rapture before tribulation.

Rapture is happen when Jesus and us gathering together. This verse say It Will not happen before that man of sin reveal,

That mean man of sin first than rapture.

Man of sin is the antichrist, who Will rule in time of tribulation.

So tribulation first than rapture not all the way around.

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, exceptthat man of sin there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The gathering together also doesn't mean anyone will be flying off from this earth; Abraham died and was gathered to his people/ Moses and Aaron died and each was gathered to their own people/ Jacob died and was gathered to his own people/ each one of the believers today will die and be gathered to their people.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

How do you know rapture before tribulation.
Rapture is happen when Jesus and us gathering together. This verse say It Will not happen before that man of sin reveal,
That mean man of sin first than rapture.
Man of sin is the antichrist, who Will rule in time of tribulation.
So tribulation first than rapture not all the way around.
2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, exceptthat man of sin there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

With respect, this interpretation (which is very common by the way) comes about by a few things incorrectly understood (about this passage):

--mis-defining "the day of the Lord" [v.2] (that the Thessalonians were being wrongly convinced "IS PRESENT". It wasn't.) Amill-teaching, for example, wrongly defines it to be meaning a singular 24-hr day (it doesn't)

--grammatical errors (wrongly applying what is stated in verse 3a to what was said in verse 1 instead of what it actually refers to, which is what is in the immediately preceding verse, verse 2)

--not understanding that "the day of the Lord" is an EARTHLY time period (of long duration), ONLY ever taking place on the earth

--not grasping that two things are being referred to (not merely one thing); yes ALL of verse 1 speaks of our Rapture, but the context speaks of our Rapture IN RELATION [time-wise] TO "the Day of the Lord [time period]"; before the DOTL can "BE PRESENT" (to unfold upon the earth, with its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of those 7-yrs), ONE THING must take place "FIRST" (the text says), before it goes on to say, "AND the man of sin be revealed" (THAT is when "the DOTL" will INDEED "BE PRESENT," that is, when he is also!)

--not grasping that all seven years are being covered in chpt 2: its BEGINNING ("whose coming" [man of sin], v.9a [see also Dan9:27(26) "prince that SHALL COME"]), its MIDDLE ("who opposeth...exalteth... sitteth" v.4); its END ("whom the Lord shall consume... destroy" v.8)

--not acknowledging "the DOTL" / "IN THAT DAY" are the same time period in OT usages and here (chpts 1 AND 2, used together here also--so lacking the fuller context of both chpts)

--more, but this is sufficient for now...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT to add:

--not realizing that Paul, in 1 & 2 Thessalonians refers to our Rapture using various terms/phrases (not merely once in 1Th4:14-17) [something like 10x]

--not acknowledging a very legitimate definition (and used elsewhere in that era) of "he apostasia" (literally meaning, "THE DEPARTURE"); see also Liddell and Scott's Greek English Lexicon entry under that word; and others [same]

--etc... (much more )