Rapture

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Noose, all those are "verbs" (so, if anything, would correlate with the verb-action in Matt24 I referred to, or of death).

Re: our Rapture (2Th2:1), the word is a "noun" "[our] gathering-together - G1997 - episynagōgēs " ['UNTO HIM,' by the way] (I'm not saying that a verb is NEVER used in relation to speaking of our rapture, but that this "gather" word is a noun, unlike your examples, and correlates to the numerous "noun" words Paul uses when speaking of "our Rapture" [I mentioned earlier that Paul refers to our Rapture some 10x throughout both epistles to the Thessalonians, using various words/phrases... not merely the one reference most point to (1Th4:16-17)])

 

[Noose]

^ Noose, all those are "verbs" (so, if anything, would correlate with the verb-action in Matt24 I referred to, or of death).

Re: our Rapture (2Th2:1), the word is a "noun" "[our] gathering-together - G1997 - episynagōgēs " ['UNTO HIM,' by the way] (I'm not saying that a verb is NEVER used in relation to speaking of our rapture, but that this "gather" word is a noun, unlike your examples, and correlates to the numerous "noun" words Paul uses when speaking of "our Rapture" [I mentioned earlier that Paul refers to our Rapture some 10x throughout both epistles to the Thessalonians, using various words/phrases... not merely the one reference most point to (1Th4:16-17)])

Yes, verb because it is the Lord that gathers and in 2 Thess 2, Paul refers to us being taken or Paul and those believers at his time being taken. To me, it is the same thing only that on one side it is the Lord doing and on the other side, the action is being done to believers. But it even gets mysterious when Paul describes the event:

1 Thess 4:
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The striking thing here is Paul counts himself amongst those that are alive and are caught together with those that sleep. This is not just another case of "proleptic 'you'" because Paul really counts himself amongst those that are alive during the return of the Lord here.

And bizarrely, Paul again would later count himself amongst the dead that will be raised and be caught together with his 1st century listeners:

2 Cor 4:
12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13And in keeping with what is written: “I believed, therefore I have spoken,”c we who have the same spirit of faith also believe and therefore speak, 14knowing that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in His presence. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is extending to more and more people may overflow in thanksgiving, to the glory of God.

Again, this is not just a "proleptic 'you'", he meant it to those that he wrote to- that he will be raised and be caught up with them. This to me, is what it means to gather or coming together; the souls of the dead believers indwelling the living believers. This idea has been termed heretic here by some but this is just the way i see it. And i believe this is what it means the old testament faithfuls being gathered to their people.

But even bizarrely, Paul poses a question about resurrection:

1 Cor 15:29If these things are not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well, your point doesn't make entire sense to me (recall I said verbs are ALSO used with regard to our Rapture, just that 2Th2:1 is a "noun"/gather)… and that's because I see that the "we which are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION WITH'] THEM..." (so the "caught up" verb part applies to both the living [in Christ] and those who have died [in Christ], not just the "dead in Christ" alone. Make sense? My point was not to say that there aren't two perspectives, the one being from our perspective, the other being from His... that's a whole separate point I was not speaking to [there]).


When Paul uses the "proleptic 'you' [or 'we' for that matter]," HE is speaking TO/FOR/ABOUT "the Church which is His body" (the "ONE BODY" / AS ONE).

Peter, in Acts 3:12 (for example) is using the "proleptic 'you'" but with regard to His Jewish brethren (yet unsaved).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [adding] ...so Joseph, in his Genesis 45:1 reveal (lol), where it says "there STOOD no man with him, while he made himself known unto his brethren"), this context/setting was in his "seven year famine" (with "yet 5 yrs" remaining), and this CONTEXT is altogether when he was separate from his brothers (he lived one place, they another--that kind of context).


[Hosea 5:15 - 6:3, for example: "UNTIL/TILL"]

 

[NayborBear]

So allow me a question here.
What are the "features, or parameters" if you will, in ones' determining of precisely where this 'ol world is in tribulation? Pre? Mid? Post?
I mean, like what has to transpire? What "events" must come to pass in the demonstrating of Pre, or Mid, or Post Tribulation? That would cause one to say: "AHH!"
What "milestones", if you will, or "markers?"

I'm asking out of my own curiosity!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So allow me a question here.
What are the "features, or parameters" if you will, in ones' determining of precisely where this 'ol world is in tribulation? Pre? Mid? Post?
I mean, like what has to transpire? What "events" must come to pass in the demonstrating of Pre, or Mid, or Post Tribulation? That would cause one to say: "AHH!"
What "milestones", if you will, or "markers?"

I'm asking out of my own curiosity!

May I ask... which aspect are you specifically asking about? Our "Rapture"? OR "pre - mid - post Trib years" themselves (like, what happens when, within those 7-yrs)? Or some other question other than these two? ...something more like "what are we seeing presently?" or the like? Or, like, "what does the DOTL cover?" time-wise??

In my post # 419 (page 21) I supplied a very brief outline of what is covered in Paul's 2Th2 chpt, but each of these points in that section (the part that covers the 7-yr trib) connects with other passages outside of / beyond just that one passage. I wrote (outline):

[context of this being one of the points I was making about 2Th2's various interps]

--not grasping that all seven years are being covered in chpt 2 [2Th2]: its BEGINNING ("whose coming" [man of sin], v.9a [see also Dan9:27(26) "prince that SHALL COME"]), its MIDDLE ("who opposeth...exalteth... sitteth" v.4); its END ("whom the Lord shall consume... destroy" v.8)

Additionally, "the Day of the Lord [time period]" itself covers more than just those 7-yrs (tho it STARTS with those), it consists of all three of the following parts:

1) the 7-yr trib upon the earth (the "DARK" portion)
2) His Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion)
3) His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" portion)

[all earthly-located time period of long duration; not merely a singular 24-hr day (all of this is the DOTL)]

… more could be said (like Rev1:1's "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" point), but apart from knowing your central question, I'll leave it at this for now.

 

[NayborBear]

Well? There ya go! I shoulda expected an answer chock full of so many twisty-doodles, that it makes a writhing snake, look like a plumb bob line!

I myself am content! "Justice" has been served!

If ya can't Dazzle 'em with Brilliance? Baffle 'em with B.S.!

 

[Jackson123]

No, I do not believe Paul is conveying such a point.



No, I do not believe "man of sin be revealed" occurs (or speaking of occurring) at mid-trib, no.

Re-read my points on this, and I will come back later when I get more time and elaborate further.



No.



This is not what I have been saying.

I do not believe this is what Paul is conveying in that passage.



Pre-tribbers and post-tribbers both believe Jesus comes/returns at that point (pre-tribbers do not believe Jesus is speaking of "our Rapture" in Matthew 24:29-31, but of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK [parallel with Isaiah 27:12-13 and numerous other passages])



Our Rapture is the context of what 2Th2:1 is about, and further on in that passage is Paul stating that "the DOTL" time period (with its man of sin and all he will DO) will NOT "be present" (to unfold upon the earth, over time) until ONE THING happens "FIRST" (now is the subject of verse 1 referred to [again], in context). Paul is telling of the SEQUENCE: how our Rapture fits TIME-WISE in relation TO the DOTL time period

So you believe rapture happen before man of sin reveal?

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

1.Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is my opinion.

The context is gathering with the Lord and the coming of our Lord (verse 1)

So the word that day in verse 3 is pronouns of both gathering/rapture and the coming of the Lord.


What is a pronoun?
A pronoun is a word that is used instead of a noun or noun phrase. Pronouns refer to either a noun that has already been mentioned or to a noun that does not need to be named specifically.

The most common pronouns are the personal pronouns, which refer to the person or people speaking or writing (first person), the person or people being spoken to (second person), or other people or things (third person). Like nouns, personal pronouns can function as either the subject of a verb or the object of a verb or preposition: "She likes him, but he loves her." Most of the personal pronouns have different subject and object forms:

 

[Jackson123]

And i'm saying, gathering doesn't necessarily mean people being taken out of this earth alive. We see the old testament faithfuls being gathered after their death and no one has explained to me so far what it means:

Gen 28:7 Abraham lived a total of 175 years. 8And at a ripe old age he breathed his last and died, old and contented, and was gathered to his people.

Genesis 25:17
Ishmael lived a total of 137 years. Then he breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people.

Genesis 49:33
When Jacob had finished instructing his sons, he pulled his feet into the bed and breathed his last, and he was gathered to his people.

Deuteronomy 32:50
And there on the mountain that you climb, you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people.

I'm not sure what this means but the fact that Aaron's people are distinguished from Moses's people yet they are brothers talks volumes. It has more of a spiritual meaning than people coming around to mourn, plus, people did not know Moses died so they did not gather to mourn him per se. I'm sure if you ever find the meaning of gathering as used in these passages, you will definately understand what Christ meant by gathering the elect.

So you say gathering is already happen in old testament, am I correct.

Then why Paul say our gathering Will not happen before a man of sin reveal?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well? There ya go! I shoulda expected an answer chock full of so many twisty-doodles, that it makes a writhing snake, look like a plumb bob line!

I myself am content! "Justice" has been served!

If ya can't Dazzle 'em with Brilliance? Baffle 'em with B.S.!

Alls I'm askin is, "what was your actual question?," BECAUSE the phrasing of your post CONFLATED SEVERAL *distinct* things (according to how Scripture itself phrases things); so I'm asking "which aspect" are YOU referring to, in your question.
[kinda like the earlier blurring together of the TWO distinct phrases "I am coming AS A THIEF." and "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief IN THE NIGHT" (a time period, here, in contrast to a Person), which two phrases refer to wholly distinct things and at wholly distinct moments in time; they are not to be conflated and blurred into "one lump sum," as they are not the same thing.]

THIS is what I am asking you to clarify, in your most recent question, as your phrasing is blurring together several distinct ideas (biblically) and I wanted to be sure of what YOU exactly mean by your question, so I can answer to the point you are actually endeavoring to convey (instead of one you are not).

If you do not care to "clarify," for me, it's perfectly fine.

 

[Jackson123]

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



Let me make analogy

1. John and Smith go to the market.

They Will not come back before I call them.

They mean John and Smith, not only John or not only Smith.


Let compare with this sentence.

2 do not confuse about the coming of the Lord (John) and our gathering with Him (Smith)

That day Will not come before the antichrist reveal.

That day in this sentence refer to the coming of the Lord and our gathering with Him.

That day not only refer to the coming of the Lord, we have to read the context.

ON Verse 1 Paul state what he want to talk. He want to talk about the coming of the Lord and our gathering with Him.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jackson123, the first verse (2Th2:1), though in two phrases, is WHOLLY referring to our Rapture. You will find in every place where Paul expresses "the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, [and similar]," he is referring to that (our Rapture IN THE AIR). In this singular verse (verse 1), he is addressing that SINGULAR SUBJECT (our Rapture).

In verse 2, he's basically saying, "don't let any one convince you that the Day of the Lord [an earthly time period] IS PRESENT" (it isn't!) [this is referring to the TIME PERIOD which WILL BE PRESENT to unfold upon the earth STARTING with the INITIAL "birth PANG"/SEAL #1/at the BEGINNGING of the 7-yr trib (when "the man of sin" himself will ALSO be present, and will do all he is slated to do)]

In verse 3, it starts out talking about the subject of the IMMEDIATLY PRECEDING verse [verse 2!] (subject: the day of the Lord TIME PERIOD), and says (basically) "that day [the DOTL from VERSE 2!] will NOT be present if not shall have come [1 thing] THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [here now he is speaking of the subject of verse 1!! ] AND [2nd thing] the man of sin be revealed [i.e. the first/INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"... the "whose coming" (man of sin) of 2Th2:8a [also Dan9:27(26 "prince that SHALL COME"), at the START of the 7 years]"


The Day of the Lord isn't present and will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*… AND the man of sin be revealed (Seal #1--the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" elsewhere)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

too late to edit my misspellings, my apologies

EDIT: I meant "whose coming" (man of sin) 2Th2:9a" (rather than 8a)

 

[Jackson123]

Jackson123, the first verse (2Th2:1), though in two phrases, is WHOLLY referring to our Rapture. You will find in every place where Paul expresses "the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, [and similar]," he is referring to that (our Rapture IN THE AIR). In this singular verse (verse 1), he is addressing that SINGULAR SUBJECT (our Rapture).

In verse 2, he's basically saying, "don't let any one convince you that the Day of the Lord [an earthly time period] IS PRESENT" (it isn't!) [this is referring to the TIME PERIOD which WILL BE PRESENT to unfold upon the earth STARTING with the INITIAL "birth PANG"/SEAL #1/at the BEGINNGING of the 7-yr trib (when "the man of sin" himself will ALSO be present, and will do all he is slated to do)]

In verse 3, it starts out talking about the subject of the IMMEDIATLY PRECEDING verse [verse 2!] (subject: the day of the Lord TIME PERIOD), and says (basically) "that day [the DOTL from VERSE 2!] will NOT be present if not shall have come [1 thing] THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [here now he is speaking of the subject of verse 1!! ] AND [2nd thing] the man of sin be revealed [i.e. the first/INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"... the "whose coming" (man of sin) of 2Th2:8a [also Dan9:27(26 "prince that SHALL COME"), at the START of the 7 years]"


The Day of the Lord isn't present and will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*… AND the man of sin be revealed (Seal #1--the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" elsewhere)

Jackson123, the first verse (2Th2:1), though in two phrases, is WHOLLY referring to our Rapture. You will find in every place where Paul expresses "the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, [and similar]," he is referring to that (our Rapture IN THE AIR). In this singular verse (verse 1), he is addressing that SINGULAR SUBJECT (our Rapture).

In verse 2, he's basically saying, "don't let any one convince you that the Day of the Lord [an earthly time period] IS PRESENT" (it isn't!) [this is referring to the TIME PERIOD which WILL BE PRESENT to unfold upon the earth STARTING with the INITIAL "birth PANG"/SEAL #1/at the BEGINNGING of the 7-yr trib (when "the man of sin" himself will ALSO be present, and will do all he is slated to do)]

In verse 3, it starts out talking about the subject of the IMMEDIATLY PRECEDING verse [verse 2!] (subject: the day of the Lord TIME PERIOD), and says (basically) "that day [the DOTL from VERSE 2!] will NOT be present if not shall have come [1 thing] THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [here now he is speaking of the subject of verse 1!! ] AND [2nd thing] the man of sin be revealed [i.e. the first/INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"... the "whose coming" (man of sin) of 2Th2:8a [also Dan9:27(26 "prince that SHALL COME"), at the START of the 7 years]"


The Day of the Lord isn't present and will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*… AND the man of sin be revealed (Seal #1--the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" elsewhere)

If I understand correctly, you believe verse 1, the coming of the Lord and our gathering with Him

Is rapture, you not believe the coming of the Lord is second coming, am I correct?


2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If I understand correctly, you believe verse 1, the coming of the Lord and our gathering with Him
Is rapture, you not believe the coming of the Lord is second coming, am I correct?
2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Correct. Verse 1's subject is SOLELY our Rapture

...(he goes on to speak of other/distinct subjects and how these fit IN RELATION [time-wise] TO each other). Paul is addressing "the Church which is His body" (and OUR "gathering-together [noun] UNTO HIM"), and in every place where he addresses "the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ," it speaks to THIS (the time of our Rapture IN THE AIR, NOT His Second Coming to the earth).

Now, in saying this, I am NOT suggesting that 2Th2 does not ALSO cover His Second Coming to the earth [subject], it DOES [ALSO! (both chpts!)], but Paul is conveying to them the SEQUENCE (how the one fits IN RELATION [time-wise] TO the other [the other items in the overall context]), in order to make the case [convince them of the truth] that "the Day of the Lord will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*"… "AND the man of sin be revealed";

...he's telling them not to be convinced by anyone telling them "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" [verse 2] (because it isn't, and he is telling them "WHY" it is not so, even though it was a most REASONABLE thing for them to be easily CONVINCED OF [though incorrect]--they thought it was present, and had the very negative experiences of 2Th1:4 to back up that reasonable idea, but it wasn't!), but to INSTEAD believe what THEY had taught them! Verse 15 (the other end of the entire context).

This SEQUENCE is repeated 3x in the 2Th2:3-8 passage, and is the SAME SEQUENCE that 1Th4 and 5 ALSO previously showed.

THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* before the day of the Lord TIME PERIOD can ARRIVE to BE PRESENT on the earth (with its man of sin, and ALL he will DO in those 7 yrs [the man of sin be revealed... "IN HIS TIME"])

 

[Jackson123]

Correct. Verse 1's subject is SOLELY our Rapture

...(he goes on to speak of other/distinct subjects and how these fit IN RELATION [time-wise] TO each other). Paul is addressing "the Church which is His body" (and OUR "gathering-together [noun] UNTO HIM"), and in every place where he addresses "the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ," it speaks to THIS (the time of our Rapture IN THE AIR, NOT His Second Coming to the earth).

Now, in saying this, I am NOT suggesting that 2Th2 does not ALSO cover His Second Coming to the earth [subject], it DOES [ALSO! (both chpts!)], but Paul is conveying to them the SEQUENCE (how the one fits IN RELATION [time-wise] TO the other [the other items in the overall context]), in order to make the case [convince them of the truth] that "the Day of the Lord will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*"… "AND the man of sin be revealed";

...he's telling them not to be convinced by anyone telling them "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" [verse 2] (because it isn't, and he is telling them "WHY" it is not so, even though it was a most REASONABLE thing for them to be easily CONVINCED OF [though incorrect]--they thought it was present, and had the very negative experiences of 2Th1:4 to back up that reasonable idea, but it wasn't!), but to INSTEAD believe what THEY had taught them! Verse 15 (the other end of the entire context).

This SEQUENCE is repeated 3x in the 2Th2:3-8 passage, and is the SAME SEQUENCE that 1Th4 and 5 ALSO previously showed.

THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* before the day of the Lord TIME PERIOD can ARRIVE to BE PRESENT on the earth (with its man of sin, and ALL he will DO in those 7 yrs [the man of sin be revealed... "IN HIS TIME"])

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

So you believe verse 1 is not a topic, but a greeting, am I correct?

Can you show me that in every letter Paul always start with this greeting?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I'm not saying "in every letter Paul always starts with this greeting," I'm saying that everywhere that Paul speaks [writes] of "the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ," that he is referring to this subject (our Rapture IN THE AIR, NOT His Second Coming to the earth [FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly MK]).

In a few other places Paul speaks [writes] of "the coming of the Lord." This (in those contexts) is not referring to "our Rapture IN THE AIR" but of His RETURN to the earth (FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom; IOW, to judge and to reign).

You can examine the two distinct phrases I am pointing out, for yourself, here at this link, and "see if these things be so" (keeping in mind context and who or what the surrounding context is speaking about) :

https://www.biblegateway.com/

 

[Noose]

Well, your point doesn't make entire sense to me (recall I said verbs are ALSO used with regard to our Rapture, just that 2Th2:1 is a "noun"/gather)… and that's because I see that the "we which are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION WITH'] THEM..." (so the "caught up" verb part applies to both the living [in Christ] and those who have died [in Christ], not just the "dead in Christ" alone. Make sense? My point was not to say that there aren't two perspectives, the one being from our perspective, the other being from His... that's a whole separate point I was not speaking to [there]).


When Paul uses the "proleptic 'you' [or 'we' for that matter]," HE is speaking TO/FOR/ABOUT "the Church which is His body" (the "ONE BODY" / AS ONE).

Peter, in Acts 3:12 (for example) is using the "proleptic 'you'" but with regard to His Jewish brethren (yet unsaved).

There's no indication from Paul that he uses "proleptic 'you' in his letters. Paul is merely writing letters because he was not there in person to advice his 1st century listeners and his 1st century audience never thought for a second that those things don't apply to them. It would be understandable if Paul consistently used the concept of "proleptic 'you' throughout his letters then but he did not, in describing the same event, he counts himself amongst those that are alive during the return of the Lord and to another 1st century audience, counts himself amongst the dead who shall be raised and be caught with his 1st century listeners.

Let me dwell on this right here:

2 Cor 4:
12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13And in keeping with what is written: “I believed, therefore I have spoken,”c we who have the same spirit of faith also believe and therefore speak, 14knowing that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in His presence. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is extending to more and more people may overflow in thanksgiving, to the glory of God.

Q1. How is this a "proleptic 'you'"? How does Paul's death benefit us in the 21st century (and counting)?

And not only Paul but Peter also suggested the same:

2 Peter 1:13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of my body, 14since I know that it will soon be laid aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort to ensure that after my departure, you will be able to recall these things at all times.

There's a difference between these sentences:
1. And I will make every effort to ensure that after my departure, you will be able to recall these things at all times.
2. And I will make every effort to ensure that you will be able to recall these things at all times after my departure.

The first sentences simply means that the efforts go well beyond the death which means that Peter knew that his spirit will continue the good work even after his death when he is caught up together with his 1st century listeners. There is no use of "proleptic 'you'" here, i don't think so.

 

[Jackson123]

I'm not saying "in every letter Paul always starts with this greeting," I'm saying that everywhere that Paul speaks [writes] of "the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ," that he is referring to this subject (our Rapture IN THE AIR, NOT His Second Coming to the earth [FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly MK]).

In a few other places Paul speaks [writes] of "the coming of the Lord." This (in those contexts) is not referring to "our Rapture IN THE AIR" but of His RETURN to the earth (FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom; IOW, to judge and to reign).

You can examine the two distinct phrases I am pointing out, for yourself, here at this link, and "see if these things be so" (keeping in mind context and who or what the surrounding context is speaking about) :

https://www.biblegateway.com/

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

So you believe verse 1 as rapture or second coming?

 

[Noose]

And, Paul in defending his teachings of resurrection uses a first century practice of 'baptizing for the dead' which according to him is totally ok because of the underlying belief. Paul asks:

1 Cor 15:29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?

We can easily tell that this group's practice does not stem from the idea that resurrection is miles in the future (21st century and counting), they believed that resurrection was first approaching and in their life time (before they died) and they baptised people in the name of old saints like Abraham/ Jacob/ Isaac/Moses believing that these saints will resurrect and indwell and guide them - more like Catholics, only difference is that Catholics baptize young ones.

And Paul is asking, if there's no resurrection, what will they do? they were just wasting there time if there was no resurrection. Paul is saying, they did not waste their time because resurrection is a fact, not a future fact but a continuous one from some point in the late 1st century.