Rapture

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TheDivineWatermark

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^ EDIT to add (lol):

--so where I referred to the SEQUENCE (in my posts above [our Rapture IN RELATION (time-wise) TO the DOTL time period]), this very SEQUENCE is repeated THREE TIMES in this context (2Th2), as well as being the SAME SEQUENCE as what was given in 1Th4 thru chpt 5

--still more ( :D )… but not right now... :)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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This issue about second coming of Jesus in glory and with the clouds of heaven is just a humongous misunderstanding from the likes of you. That phrase has been used several times and in some instances, we can tell it is not a physical happening but a spiritual one which requires deep understanding. This one here:
Matt 26:
63But Jesus remained silent.
Then the high priest said to Him, “I charge You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64“You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Q. Did those in the court room see Jesus coming with clouds of heaven from that moment on?
The phrase "from now on" can also be translated [something like] "from this point" or "from this moment".

Allow me to offer a brief quote by William Kelly, and then offer my comments below:

[quoting]

"Before Caiaphas (vers. 57-68) He is counted guilty of death - not because the falsehood of the witnesses succeeded, but because of His own confession of the truth. He, the Son of God, come in fulness of grace and truth as He was, they should henceforth see Him, the Son of Man, sitting on the right hand of Power, and coming in the clouds of heaven - His present position and His manifestation when He comes in power and glory."

[end quoting]

my comments:

ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come [etc]" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth (unless speaking of His present coming [at that time] in His first advent, of course). This is His designation when He is to JUDGE and to reign. So I believe (and if you want to consider it a "spiritual one which requires deep understanding," I am not opposed to that [I think it does TOO!!], it's just that I believe it is not limited to ONLY being "spiritual" but also literal; all will be judged on that very issue, that is, upon their rejection of Him)…

...allow me to place another quote by Gaebelein, which I think adds something to what I just put (but not as well as he):

[quoting... oops, see next post, I'll place it there instead]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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[quoting Gaebelein]

"There remained just one thing to be done, and that was to put a question to Him directly, a question, which He could not refuse to answer. Why did they not do this at once? He had first to be shown as the Holy One, the Lamb of God, without spot or blemish. The moment has come. Most likely the High priest in his excitement had arisen from his seat. The silent victim stands immediately before Him. They are face to face. The furious, heated face of Caiaphas looks into the loving tender eyes of the Lord. Did this high priest and his associates know that this lowly One, standing bound in their presence, is the Son of God, the promised Messiah? They knew that He had given the witness to that effect throughout His public ministry. He had not only given the self-witness, that He and the Father are one, that He is the Son of God, but His works had fully established His Deity. The last question the Lord put to the Pharisees concerning the Christ, whose son He is, (Chap, 22) had been answered by Him in a way they all understood. There was no doubt, they knew Him, even as the Lord had said in the parable, “He is the Heir; come let us kill Him”. The high priest knew he would succeed if he put that question concerning His Sonship to Him. But little he knew what he was doing; the blessed One could not be condemned by false witnesses. His own confession of who He was, the confession of the truth alone could bring about His condemnation. “And the high priest answering said to Him, I adjure Thee by the living God that Thou tell us if Thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus says to Him, Thou hast said. Moreover, I say to you, From henceforth ye shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven” (Matthew 26:63-64.)

"Under that oath He could not be silent. For this moment He was waiting to witness that good confession. He confesses Himself the Christ, the Son of God and witnesses to His future Glory at the right hand of power, and His visible manifestation at the time of His Coming again in the clouds of heaven. What a confirmation of the fact that He is the willing sacrifice of the Holy One, who will drink that bitter cup and fulfill the Scriptures. “They all heard it -- and, as the Law directed when blasphemy was spoken, the high priest rent both his outer and inner garment, with a rent that might never be repaired. But his object was attained. Christ would neither explain, modify, nor retract His claims. They all had heard it. What use was there of witnesses.” Behold now ye have heard the blasphemy. “Then turning to those assembled, he put to them the usual question which preceded the formal sentence of death. As given in the rabbinic original it is: ‘What think ye gentlemen? And they answered, If for life, “For Life.” If for death: “For death.”‘ But the formal sentence of death, which if it had been a regular meeting of the Sanhedrin, must now have been spoken by the president, was not pronounced.” (Edersheim)

" “What think ye? And they answering said, He is liable to the penalty of death.” (Matthew 26:66). What a justice! Satanic, fiendish injustice rather. But there He stands, the silent Lamb of God. What a picture! Oh that we might behold Him once more as He stood before this company of His enemies. What calmness. “Majestic in His silence, majestic in His speech; unmoved by threats to speak, unmoved by threats when He had spoken.”

"And now affecting the scene, which follows. His confession set the powers of darkness loose and the undefending Christ, the Son of God is tasting a little of the cup He had to drink. Oh to think of it! They spit in His face! That face, which in loving tenderness had gazed with compassion upon the multitudes, yea, that face, the image of the invisible God, was covered with vile spittle of men. How He must have suffered! They buffeted Him, struck Him with the palms of their hands, mocked Him. And not a word, not a murmur came from His blessed lips. “When reviled, He reviled not again, when suffering, He threatened not.” And reader! it was all for such vile sinners as we are! He loved us and gave Himself for us. What a Saviour! How little we think of Him; how little that which He did for us is before our hearts and has a governing power over our lives. Oh Lord! Thou art worthy of all. And then to think that such a Saviour is rejected of those for whom He suffered thus, dishonored, His mighty work denied among those who profess His name."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on Matthew 26 [source: Bible Hub https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/matthew/26.htm ; bold and underline mine]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I also do not want to neglect putting the following (from Strong's; source Blue Letter Bible), which I think aids further:

[quoting Strong's]

" [G737] ἄρτι árti, ar'-tee; adverb from a derivative of G142 [airo] (compare G740 [artos]) through the idea of suspension; just now:—this day (hour), hence(-forth), here(-after), hither(-to), (even) now, (this) present."

[end quoting; brackets mine within that quote ^ ; bold mine ]
 

Noose

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The phrase "from now on" can also be translated [something like] "from this point" or "from this moment".

Allow me to offer a brief quote by William Kelly, and then offer my comments below:

[quoting]

"Before Caiaphas (vers. 57-68) He is counted guilty of death - not because the falsehood of the witnesses succeeded, but because of His own confession of the truth. He, the Son of God, come in fulness of grace and truth as He was, they should henceforth see Him, the Son of Man, sitting on the right hand of Power, and coming in the clouds of heaven - His present position and His manifestation when He comes in power and glory."

[end quoting]

my comments:

ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come [etc]" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth (unless speaking of His present coming [at that time] in His first advent, of course). This is His designation when He is to JUDGE and to reign. So I believe (and if you want to consider it a "spiritual one which requires deep understanding," I am not opposed to that [I think it does TOO!!], it's just that I believe it is not limited to ONLY being "spiritual" but also literal; all will be judged on that very issue, that is, upon their rejection of Him)…

...allow me to place another quote by Gaebelein, which I think adds something to what I just put (but not as well as he):

[quoting... oops, see next post, I'll place it there instead]
My point is, the phrase 'seeing Jesus come with the clouds of heaven' is not what many people think it is and therefore establish their doctrine on. IMO, the entire doctrine of rapture whether pre/mid/post trib are based on misunderstanding. Jesus comes as a spiritual being and spirits are understood and never seen (physically)- the reason Jesus said, "...then they see the sign of son of man in the sky...". Signs are only to be understood- vultures are a sign that a carcass is around, so when you see vultures, you don't have to see the carcass but you will already know that the there's a carcass around.

Plus many other verses address this matter:

Matt 10: 23When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Heb 10:25Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching. ....
36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised. 37For, “in just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.

There's nothing here to suggest that the Lord's second coming would be some distant future (21st century and counting) and in any physical manner. I believe what Paul said in Hebrews 10 is true, the day approached and the one who was to come came and did not delay, anything else will be calling Paul (and God) a liar- He came then and has been continuously coming into new believers spiritually.

21 centuries by any standard is a delay.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ [add to my post] Recall in my past posts about Acts 3, where Peter had said (regarding Jesus earthly ministry BEFORE His death): "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A PROPHET shall the Lord your God raise up unto you [this is before His death, raised to a position of prominence] of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you." Acts 3:22 [26]. Jesus, as PROPHET, had a way of saying much more than a surface/cursory glance reveals.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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My point is, the phrase 'seeing Jesus come with the clouds of heaven' is not what many people think it is and therefore establish their doctrine on. IMO, the entire doctrine of rapture whether pre/mid/post trib are based on misunderstanding. Jesus comes as a spiritual being and spirits are understood and never seen (physically)- the reason Jesus said, "...then they see the sign of son of man in the sky...". Signs are only to be understood- vultures are a sign that a carcass is around, so when you see vultures, you don't have to see the carcass but you will already know that the there's a carcass around.

Plus many other verses address this matter:

Matt 10: 23When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Heb 10:25Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching. ....
36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised. 37For, “in just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.

There's nothing here to suggest that the Lord's second coming would be some distant future (21st century and counting) and in any physical manner. I believe what Paul said in Hebrews 10 is true, the day approached and the one who was to come came and did not delay, anything else will be calling Paul (and God) a liar- He came then and has been continuously coming into new believers spiritually.

21 centuries by any standard is a delay.
Keep in mind that (according to all He said in His Olivet Discourse) "the beginning of birth PANGS" He talked about do not commence [BEGIN] until AFTER the 70ad events were to take place. And those "birth pangs" that begin AFTER the 70ad events are [will be] just "the beginning" of them.
 

Noose

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Keep in mind that (according to all He said in His Olivet Discourse) "the beginning of birth PANGS" He talked about do not commence [BEGIN] until AFTER the 70ad events were to take place. And those "birth pangs" that begin AFTER the 70ad events are [will be] just "the beginning" of them.
No, i don't have 70AD events in mind, those events were physically visible and did not require any wisdom/understanding- whatever Jesus was talking about required wisdom and it is even said, "..let the reader understand.." concerning the abomination. What comes to my mind is:

Rev 14:
13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

I believe that very moment when John penned those words of the angel was the time dividing the old and the new covenant and it was sometime after 70AD.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ [adding to my post (slow editor here :D )] ...and you may recall my [long ago] post stating the distinctions between:

--1 John 4:2's "in flesh having come [perfect participle active]," distinct from that of

--2 John 1:7's "coming in flesh [present participle middle/passive]" (we don't want to associate ourselves with what it states in this verse, "who confess not Jesus coming [present participle] in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.")


Jesus spoke all through the gospels of His return to the earth.

And recall my mentioning the use of the "proleptic 'you'" (referring [basically] to "all others in the future, of the same category" [context determining, of course])
 

TheDivineWatermark

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No, i don't have 70AD events in mind, those events were physically visible and did not require any wisdom/understanding- whatever Jesus was talking about required wisdom and it is even said, "..let the reader understand.." concerning the abomination. What comes to my mind is:
Rev 14:
13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”
I believe that very moment when John penned those words of the angel was the time dividing the old and the new covenant and it was sometime after 70AD.
So... I'm forgetting (from our way back convo) if you believe that Revelation 19 refers to what you've put above ^ ?

[I've stated: Rev19:19-21/16:14-16/20:5a EQUALS Isa24:21-22[23] and includes the "punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth"... along with the concept of the Church which is His body "SHALL JUDGE ANGELS" 1Cor6:3[14]…; Can you elaborate briefly regarding your thoughts on Rev19 and whether you see this as "past" (from our perspective), though perhaps after the 70ad events?]
 

Noose

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^ [adding to my post (slow editor here :D )] ...and you may recall my [long ago] post stating the distinctions between:

--1 John 4:2's "in flesh having come [perfect participle active]," distinct from that of

--2 John 1:7's "coming in flesh [present participle middle/passive]" (we don't want to associate ourselves with what it states in this verse, "who confess not Jesus coming [present participle] in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.")


Jesus spoke all through the gospels of His return to the earth.

And recall my mentioning the use of the "proleptic 'you'" (referring [basically] to "all others in the future, of the same category" [context determining, of course])
"proleptic 'you'"? I don't think so:

Heb 10:25 Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching. ....
36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised. 37For, “in just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.

Paul is communicating the above to a group of people by use of letters and there's no indication of "proleptic 'you'" in these letters, so the 1st century believers addressed in the these letters received and read and were hopeful never thinking that it was also meant to address the 21st century people. Paul is directly telling them to hope because the one who was to come would not delay and he even says in a 'little while', He will show up. What's the reason of giving people hope in something not meant for them?
 

Jackson123

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The gathering together also doesn't mean anyone will be flying off from this earth; Abraham died and was gathered to his people/ Moses and Aaron died and each was gathered to their own people/ Jacob died and was gathered to his own people/ each one of the believers today will die and be gathered to their people.
But the bible say, after man of sin/ tribulation It Will be gathering.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Perhaps I should have written a "on another note, recall where I've pointed out the usages of the 'proleptic 'you' ,' where it is used [with the context determining, of course]"... to let you know of my shift of subject, somewhat... by way of reminder (of our previous convos on this general subject).
 

TheDivineWatermark

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But the bible say, after man of sin/ tribulation It Will be gathering.
Paul, in 2Thess2, is not conveying the point that you are suggesting he is (regarding the sequence/timing)... but yes, we WILL experience the "gathering-together [NOUN; one Grk word] UNTO HIM" and that will be "IN THE AIR" and it will involve "THE LORD HIMSELF" (rather than the "HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS, and THEY SHALL GATHER..." like in the other context [which is not our Rapture, but is correlating with Isa27:12-13, and to Jerusalem, wholly distinct location also!])
 

Jackson123

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With respect, this interpretation (which is very common by the way) comes about by a few things incorrectly understood (about this passage):

--mis-defining "the day of the Lord" [v.2] (that the Thessalonians were being wrongly convinced "IS PRESENT". It wasn't.) Amill-teaching, for example, wrongly defines it to be meaning a singular 24-hr day (it doesn't)

--grammatical errors (wrongly applying what is stated in verse 3a to what was said in verse 1 instead of what it actually refers to, which is what is in the immediately preceding verse, verse 2)

--not understanding that "the day of the Lord" is an EARTHLY time period (of long duration), ONLY ever taking place on the earth

--not grasping that two things are being referred to (not merely one thing); yes ALL of verse 1 speaks of our Rapture, but the context speaks of our Rapture IN RELATION [time-wise] TO "the Day of the Lord [time period]"; before the DOTL can "BE PRESENT" (to unfold upon the earth, with its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of those 7-yrs), ONE THING must take place "FIRST" (the text says), before it goes on to say, "AND the man of sin be revealed" (THAT is when "the DOTL" will INDEED "BE PRESENT," that is, when he is also!)

--not grasping that all seven years are being covered in chpt 2: its BEGINNING ("whose coming" [man of sin], v.9a [see also Dan9:27(26) "prince that SHALL COME"]), its MIDDLE ("who opposeth...exalteth... sitteth" v.4); its END ("whom the Lord shall consume... destroy" v.8)

--not acknowledging "the DOTL" / "IN THAT DAY" are the same time period in OT usages and here (chpts 1 AND 2, used together here also--so lacking the fuller context of both chpts)

--more, but this is sufficient for now... :)
I am not full understand this explanation.

1. So you believe rapture after man of sin reveal, am I correct?

2. You believe man of sin Will be reveal in the middle of tribulation, am I correct?

3. You believe rapture after man of sin Being reveal but do not mean after he finish his 3 1/2 year term

May be after 1 year of him Being reveal or an hour after him Being reveal, am I correct?

I remind you that Jesus say he Will appear oN the cloud after tribulation.

I believe rapture or our gathering with Jesus oN the sky happen when Jesus appear in the cloud.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Perhaps I should have written a "on another note, recall where I've pointed out the usages of the 'proleptic 'you' ,' where it is used [with the context determining, of course]"... to let you know of my shift of subject, somewhat... by way of reminder (of our previous convos on this general subject).
...for example, the Acts 3 context I was referring to (see those verses I pointed out), and take note of verse 12 also (the "who" Peter is addressing, here)… etc
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I am not full understand this explanation.

1. So you believe rapture after man of sin reveal, am I correct?
No, I do not believe Paul is conveying such a point.

2. You believe man of sin Will be reveal in the middle of tribulation, am I correct?
No, I do not believe "man of sin be revealed" occurs (or speaking of occurring) at mid-trib, no.

Re-read my points on this, and I will come back later when I get more time and elaborate further.

3. You believe rapture after man of sin Being reveal but do not mean after he finish his 3 1/2 year term
No.

May be after 1 year of him Being reveal or an hour after him Being reveal, am I correct?
This is not what I have been saying.

I do not believe this is what Paul is conveying in that passage.

I remind you that Jesus say he Will appear oN the cloud after tribulation.
Pre-tribbers and post-tribbers both believe Jesus comes/returns at that point (pre-tribbers do not believe Jesus is speaking of "our Rapture" in Matthew 24:29-31, but of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK [parallel with Isaiah 27:12-13 and numerous other passages])

I believe rapture or our gathering with Jesus oN the sky happen when Jesus appear in the cloud.
Our Rapture is the context of what 2Th2:1 is about, and further on in that passage is Paul stating that "the DOTL" time period (with its man of sin and all he will DO) will NOT "be present" (to unfold upon the earth, over time) until ONE THING happens "FIRST" (now is the subject of verse 1 referred to [again], in context). Paul is telling of the SEQUENCE: how our Rapture fits TIME-WISE in relation TO the DOTL time period
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ ...and he [Paul] was compelled to write them (correcting them/exhorting them) because they were wrongly being convinced that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (this was EASY for them to BELIEVE because of their PRESENT and ONGOING, NEGATIVE circumstances they were PRESENTLY and ONGOINGLY ENDURING, 2Th1:4, etc, per context)
 

Noose

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So... I'm forgetting (from our way back convo) if you believe that Revelation 19 refers to what you've put above ^ ?

[I've stated: Rev19:19-21/16:14-16/20:5a EQUALS Isa24:21-22[23] and includes the "punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth"... along with the concept of the Church which is His body "SHALL JUDGE ANGELS" 1Cor6:3[14]…; Can you elaborate briefly regarding your thoughts on Rev19 and whether you see this as "past" (from our perspective), though perhaps after the 70ad events?]
Rev 19 is future but also now. The harvesting of both good and bad is happening concurrently as per:

Rev 14:
14And I looked and saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was One like the Son of Man,c with a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.

15Then another angel came out of the temple, crying out in a loud voice to the One seated on the cloud, “Swing Your sickle and reap, because the time has come to harvest; for the crop of the earth is ripe.” 16So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

17Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18Still another angel, with authority over the fire, came from the altar and called out in a loud voice to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the vine of the earth, because its grapes are ripe.”

19So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the grapes of the earth, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and the blood that flowed from it rose as high as the bridles of the horses for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

But, God's people are being slaughtered and because they are fewer than the the other kingdom (of this world), they will be finished before the others - when believers have been harvested (basically the first angel with the sharp sickle), that is what is referred to as the sun not giving it's light and the moon becoming bloodied and the stars falling. After this, God pours out the next level of His wrath on the Babylon as described in Rev 19.

But it is more complicated than what i have said here because it is the slaughtered believers that will seek justice from the Lord, they are told to wait until their full number is achieved- we are at that point where believers are being harvested.
 

Noose

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But the bible say, after man of sin/ tribulation It Will be gathering.
And i'm saying, gathering doesn't necessarily mean people being taken out of this earth alive. We see the old testament faithfuls being gathered after their death and no one has explained to me so far what it means:

Gen 28:7 Abraham lived a total of 175 years. 8And at a ripe old age he breathed his last and died, old and contented, and was gathered to his people.

Genesis 25:17
Ishmael lived a total of 137 years. Then he breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people.

Genesis 49:33
When Jacob had finished instructing his sons, he pulled his feet into the bed and breathed his last, and he was gathered to his people.

Deuteronomy 32:50
And there on the mountain that you climb, you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people.

I'm not sure what this means but the fact that Aaron's people are distinguished from Moses's people yet they are brothers talks volumes. It has more of a spiritual meaning than people coming around to mourn, plus, people did not know Moses died so they did not gather to mourn him per se. I'm sure if you ever find the meaning of gathering as used in these passages, you will definately understand what Christ meant by gathering the elect.