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I see this differently...
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
In Rev 17
Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of
This is a picture of a false church. The woman in Rev 12 is symbolic of the church...
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The State of Israel today does not keep the Commandments and they certainly do not have the testimony of Christ...
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
In Rev 17
Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of
This is a picture of a false church. The woman in Rev 12 is symbolic of the church...
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The State of Israel today does not keep the Commandments and they certainly do not have the testimony of Christ...
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
N
Well, if Christ's words are not important there as they should be to all Christians then sure twist it so it dose not apply to you. What would that mean ?
They asked Him, tell us " About your return, and the end of the world ". Is that difficult ?
In around verse 20 and on, Christ speaks of His return.. How in the world dose one with a straight face, pic and chose what scriptures to listen to regarding Christ return ? You either listen to All of Christs words on the matter, or the traditions of men. There are no in between, and there are no mixing of the two.
They asked Him, tell us " About your return, and the end of the world ". Is that difficult ?
In around verse 20 and on, Christ speaks of His return.. How in the world dose one with a straight face, pic and chose what scriptures to listen to regarding Christ return ? You either listen to All of Christs words on the matter, or the traditions of men. There are no in between, and there are no mixing of the two.
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H
In my humble opinion, the rapture happens at the 6th seal. The seals are the history of the Church age, the tribulation of the Church age believers, ends at the rapture. A new group arises to be persecuted by Satan, this group is 144,000 Israelites,Jews, as we call them today. This new group of Christians are all Jews and will be killed by the anti Christ, and raised to eternal life at the 2nd coning of Christ. mean while, on earth, unsaved Israel is protected from satan and will be saved at Christ's 2nd coming. This is my take of the scriptures ,as a Child of God, I can be wrong, and I need the help of other Christians, BUT, not their igrogant condemntion. Nathan, don't condemn us, Please Help us. Love Hoffco
I believe the 7 vials is the wrath of God, which happens after the Rapture of the church. God then pours His wrath out on creation. Why would God pour His wrath out on His own children, those that belong to Him?
Here is the basis for my belief. (see post 22 here http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-church-concerning-rapture-2.html#post1427655)
Namely, compare Revelation 6:12-17 to Jesus speaking in Matthew 13:22-29 and read through the seals of Revelation 6 and see that all have been broken and opened and, thus, have occurred, save the one that compares with these two verses of Scripture and the seventh seal, regarding silence in heaven for a half hour. Thus, according to Christ and the timing in Revelation, after the sixth seal is broken, the church is Raptured. I daresay, instantly, followed by the seventh seal being loosed.
Jesus prevailed and has authority to open the scroll and break the seals (Revelation 5:9). It is required to be opened before the contents of the scroll can be revealed. By loosing the seals on the outside of the scroll the contents can be read. Let us not confuse the seals for the contents, but rather see the necessity of loosing the seals to be able to see what is inside. What does it require Jesus to open the seals? All authority had to be passed to Him, which it was. Why does Jesus need to loose the seals? So that the end of the age can come.
Seal 1: The spirit of anti-Christ is was released (Matthew 24:4; 1 John 2:18, 4:3)
Seal 2: War, as we see daily everywhere (Matthew 26:6)
Seal 3: Famine (Matthew 24:7) This one has to do with famine and starvation, where there is plenty in some places, but scarcity in others, and though we could offer assistance to those who need it, we demand payment they cannot make, earthquakes, which we have seen the quantity and magnitude increase and pestilences
Seal 4: Death, which was released by Christ upon His return to heaven (ascension), for Christ was given the keys to hell and death, so until Christ released death once more, no one could die (Matthew 24:9)
Seal 5: Souls under the altar crying out for repayment (Matthew 24:9) Comfort offered for those who remain, as in those who are being persecuted and martyred today (1 Thessalonians 4:13-15)
Seal 6: The pending one, which is sun becomes darkened, moon turns to blood, and this is the coming wrath of the Lamb (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28)
After the seals are loosed, we see the sealing of the 144,000 and the great multitude none can number in Revelation 7:1-4. We know that the sealing of the 144,000 are the completed Jewish believers and the great multitude which no one can number, from every nation, tribe, people and tongues, is us, those of us who follow and believe in Christ and are His now, today. Those before, those who get saved tomorrow...this is the multitude spoken of.
In Matthew 24:31 we are spoken of as wearing white robes with palm branches in our hands. We are the ones that have come through tribulation, not the time of Jacob's Trouble, which is the wrath of God and is mistakenly labeled "the great tribulation" by many, and our robes have been washed in the blood of the Lamb. New Testament Great Tribulation is explained in Revelation 2:9, John 16:33 and Matthew 24:9, which are the times we are living in now.
Why do I believe that the Rapture happens at the loosening of the sixth seal, besides the reasons given above? Because we are not appointed for the wrath of God! The Bible tells us so in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10, namely verses 9-10, where it says, "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him." NKJV
The seventh seal is the great silence in heaven for half an hour, when the trumpets are passed out, incense rises from the altar in heaven, which is the prayers of the saints. Thus, at this time, the judgment required for 2000 years of forbearance that God has had for us comes upon the earth.
Thus, the trumpets, vials, etc. that follow are poured out after the church is raptured. The wrath of God has come.
Here is the basis for my belief. (see post 22 here http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-church-concerning-rapture-2.html#post1427655)
Namely, compare Revelation 6:12-17 to Jesus speaking in Matthew 13:22-29 and read through the seals of Revelation 6 and see that all have been broken and opened and, thus, have occurred, save the one that compares with these two verses of Scripture and the seventh seal, regarding silence in heaven for a half hour. Thus, according to Christ and the timing in Revelation, after the sixth seal is broken, the church is Raptured. I daresay, instantly, followed by the seventh seal being loosed.
Jesus prevailed and has authority to open the scroll and break the seals (Revelation 5:9). It is required to be opened before the contents of the scroll can be revealed. By loosing the seals on the outside of the scroll the contents can be read. Let us not confuse the seals for the contents, but rather see the necessity of loosing the seals to be able to see what is inside. What does it require Jesus to open the seals? All authority had to be passed to Him, which it was. Why does Jesus need to loose the seals? So that the end of the age can come.
Seal 1: The spirit of anti-Christ is was released (Matthew 24:4; 1 John 2:18, 4:3)
Seal 2: War, as we see daily everywhere (Matthew 26:6)
Seal 3: Famine (Matthew 24:7) This one has to do with famine and starvation, where there is plenty in some places, but scarcity in others, and though we could offer assistance to those who need it, we demand payment they cannot make, earthquakes, which we have seen the quantity and magnitude increase and pestilences
Seal 4: Death, which was released by Christ upon His return to heaven (ascension), for Christ was given the keys to hell and death, so until Christ released death once more, no one could die (Matthew 24:9)
Seal 5: Souls under the altar crying out for repayment (Matthew 24:9) Comfort offered for those who remain, as in those who are being persecuted and martyred today (1 Thessalonians 4:13-15)
Seal 6: The pending one, which is sun becomes darkened, moon turns to blood, and this is the coming wrath of the Lamb (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28)
After the seals are loosed, we see the sealing of the 144,000 and the great multitude none can number in Revelation 7:1-4. We know that the sealing of the 144,000 are the completed Jewish believers and the great multitude which no one can number, from every nation, tribe, people and tongues, is us, those of us who follow and believe in Christ and are His now, today. Those before, those who get saved tomorrow...this is the multitude spoken of.
In Matthew 24:31 we are spoken of as wearing white robes with palm branches in our hands. We are the ones that have come through tribulation, not the time of Jacob's Trouble, which is the wrath of God and is mistakenly labeled "the great tribulation" by many, and our robes have been washed in the blood of the Lamb. New Testament Great Tribulation is explained in Revelation 2:9, John 16:33 and Matthew 24:9, which are the times we are living in now.
Why do I believe that the Rapture happens at the loosening of the sixth seal, besides the reasons given above? Because we are not appointed for the wrath of God! The Bible tells us so in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10, namely verses 9-10, where it says, "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him." NKJV
The seventh seal is the great silence in heaven for half an hour, when the trumpets are passed out, incense rises from the altar in heaven, which is the prayers of the saints. Thus, at this time, the judgment required for 2000 years of forbearance that God has had for us comes upon the earth.
Thus, the trumpets, vials, etc. that follow are poured out after the church is raptured. The wrath of God has come.
N
The seals, don't necessarily teach Christ return but More Antichrist arrival and tools he uses for deception. Christ would give the order of the seals, for teaching reasons, in other places of the Bible like Luke 21 , etc.
The trumps have to be taken into consideration and not left out of the picture. They are in order, because there are only 7, and Christ comes to this earth, at the last of those trumps written in Rev 11:.
Satan is show released on the earth by the 6th trump. Satan as Antichrist is not after the 7th, after Christ, because there are no other trumps after the last, which is the 7th .
N
This is the last post for this thread for me. I rather talk with people in the chat rooms about this . My fingers are too tired to type any farther .
Matthew 24:3-5
King James Version (KJV)
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
( Onto the subject , in what order dose Christ return )
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
So I'm just going to take Christ word for this. And go from there in His word. Read 2 Thessalonians 2. Have a good day.
Matthew 24:3-5
King James Version (KJV)
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
( Onto the subject , in what order dose Christ return )
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
So I'm just going to take Christ word for this. And go from there in His word. Read 2 Thessalonians 2. Have a good day.
H
Nathan You are right Jesus comes after the tribulation ; BUT not after the Wrath of God. You have bought into the lie of the pre.tri. people, that the Wrath of God is the same as the tribulation. they are not the same. Christians face persecution . but the unsaved go through the wrath of God.. Hoffco
and i will do more studying on my own as well as research
H
But this yr. is too soon for the rapture. It could be a pre view of the rapture, every war etc is just a pre-wrath for evil men and us to endure until the end comes, to make men's hearts to fear what is coming. but they think of it as natural calamities, nty God's doing. The Rapture will not happen until the temple is rebuilt. Love Hoffco
H
We have to see an aliment of ten nations, with one king becoming the strongest and overthrowing three other kings and becoming the leader of the 10 nations. It doesn't have to come from Europe, the group could be around Israel , that near East was a part of the old Roman emp.. I think the peace maker will come out of Egypt. "the king of the South" . After 3and ahalf yrs. of peace, Russia and her friends attach the king of the South, then Jesus comes and destroys Russia and her friends . Soo Satan can not be a peace maker any more, He enters the man of sin, and he declares himself to be God, standing in the temple. The earth will be on fire and about destroyed by Jesus. Sooo there will be no more chance of a one world government. the the anti christ will have a local rule only. Hoffco
K
The rapture could happen at any moment, All of the prophecy pertaining to the rapture has been fulfilled. Jesus said ( if you don't know the scripture, I will go get for you if need be) when you see the fig tree blossom look up for your redemption draweth nigh.
Israel became a nation in 1948 or you could argue 1968 as that is when the UN accepted them as a nation. Any how God has performed His word. That Israel would again be a nation, not by war but by the stroke of a pen. Not only is Israel blossoming, but is thriving in the presence of it's enemies. Fulfilling the prophecy given by David. Thy leadest me into green pastures and preparest a table in the midst of mine enemies. The 23 Pslam.
Israel is surrounded by countries that want to kill them. Yet they flourish. What was once desert is now fertile land, with forset and green grass. Their engineers are some of the most brilliant that has ever existed. I meant they created a bicycle that is made out of cardboard and can sell it for 20 bucks and make a profit . Their military special forces are the best in the world. Their CIA has knowledge that the white house would cringe for.
The fig has not only blossomed but is producing fruit. Look up people.
Israel became a nation in 1948 or you could argue 1968 as that is when the UN accepted them as a nation. Any how God has performed His word. That Israel would again be a nation, not by war but by the stroke of a pen. Not only is Israel blossoming, but is thriving in the presence of it's enemies. Fulfilling the prophecy given by David. Thy leadest me into green pastures and preparest a table in the midst of mine enemies. The 23 Pslam.
Israel is surrounded by countries that want to kill them. Yet they flourish. What was once desert is now fertile land, with forset and green grass. Their engineers are some of the most brilliant that has ever existed. I meant they created a bicycle that is made out of cardboard and can sell it for 20 bucks and make a profit . Their military special forces are the best in the world. Their CIA has knowledge that the white house would cringe for.
The fig has not only blossomed but is producing fruit. Look up people.