Re: Thread On Catholic And Other Religions

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Catholic teaching also describes Mary as “full of grace,” yet that phrase in the Bible is not given in reference to Mary. Jesus is said to be “full of grace” (John 1:14), and so is Stephen (Acts 6:8).
 
B

Bede

Guest
The topic as you defined it is whether or not Catholic doctrine aligns with or contradicts Scripture.
No, that's not what I claimed
No Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts scripture (properly interpreted).

Despite your protestations to the contrary ;) I quoted you ver batim.

Scripture also states:

people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.

Catholic dogma/doctrine states Mary did not die. This is not found in Scripture.
I'm sure there are 101 topics you might want to bring up under this title. But I don't have time to follow them.
At the moment I'm following the Immaculate Conception argument and (seperately) water baptism.

P.S. Catholic doctrine does not state that Mary did not die but I'm not following that if you disagree.
 
B

Bede

Guest
Catholic teaching also describes Mary as “full of grace,” yet that phrase in the Bible is not given in reference to Mary. Jesus is said to be “full of grace” (John 1:14), and so is Stephen (Acts 6:8).
A quick reply - but don't have time to go further.
The opening salutation of the Gabriel to Mary "“Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” (lk 1:28)
Protestants mistranslate this verse.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
30,881
8,964
113
No, that's not what I claimed
No Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts scripture (properly interpreted).



I'm sure there are 101 topics you might want to bring up under this title. But I don't have time to follow them.
At the moment I'm following the Immaculate Conception argument and (seperately) water baptism.

P.S. Catholic doctrine does not state that Mary did not die but I'm not following that if you disagree.
It is what you claimed. Why deny i? Your caveat is that if any disagree with what the Catholic church teaches it is because they do not properly understand what the Catholic church teaches... and that is simply false. People can understand and also disagree, despite your lack of agreement.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
14,083
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It is what you claimed. Why deny i? Your caveat is that if any disagree with what the Catholic church teaches it is because they do not properly understand what the Catholic church teaches... and that is simply false. People can understand and also disagree, despite your lack of agreement.
The next trope of course is that according to Catholics, only the Catholic church is authorized and empowered to interpret Scripture, hence the ultimate circular logic.
 
B

Bede

Guest
It is what you claimed. Why deny i? Your caveat is that if any disagree with what the Catholic church teaches it is because they do not properly understand what the Catholic church teaches... and that is simply false. People can understand and also disagree, despite your lack of agreement.
Not at all. But properly understanding a doctrine is surely a pre-requisite to disagreeing with it.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
14,083
7,585
113
A quick reply - but don't have time to go further.
The opening salutation of the Gabriel to Mary "“Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” (lk 1:28)
Protestants mistranslate this verse.
Assertion without evidence.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
14,083
7,585
113
Not at all. But properly understanding a doctrine is surely a pre-requisite to disagreeing with it.
Actually, it isn't. Properly understanding a doctrine just gives the disagreement greater logical validity.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
30,881
8,964
113
A quick reply - but don't have time to go further.
The opening salutation of the Gabriel to Mary "“Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” (lk 1:28)
Protestants mistranslate this verse.
The overwhelming majority (26/28) do not say what you claim.

New International Version
The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

New Living Translation
Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!”

English Standard Version
And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”

Berean Study Bible
The angel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

Berean Literal Bible
And having come to her, he said, "Greetings, you favored with grace! The Lord is with you."

New American Standard Bible
And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."

New King James Version
And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

King James Bible
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Christian Standard Bible
And the angel came to her and said, "Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you."

Contemporary English Version
The angel greeted Mary and said, "You are truly blessed! The Lord is with you."

Good News Translation
The angel came to her and said, "Peace be with you! The Lord is with you and has greatly blessed you!"

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And the angel came to her and said, "Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you."

International Standard Version
The angel came to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!"

NET Bible
The angel came to her and said, "Greetings, favored one, the Lord is with you!"

New Heart English Bible
Having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, you highly favored one. The Lord is with you."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The Angel entered her presence, and he said to her, “Peace to you, full of grace, our Lord is with you; you are blessed among women.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
When the angel entered her home, he greeted her and said, "You are favored by the Lord! The Lord is with you."

New American Standard 1977
And coming in, he said to her, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

King James 2000 Bible
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women.

American King James Version
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women.

American Standard Version
And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Darby Bible Translation
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, [thou] favoured one! the Lord [is] with thee: [blessed art thou amongst women].

English Revised Version
And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the angel came to her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Weymouth New Testament
So Gabriel went into the house and said to her, "Joy be to you, favoured one! the Lord is with you."

World English Bible
Having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, you highly favored one! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women!"

Young's Literal Translation
And the messenger having come in unto her, said, 'Hail, favoured one, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women;'
 
B

Bede

Guest
Actually, it isn't. Properly understanding a doctrine just gives the disagreement greater logical validity.
So disagreeing with a non existent doctrine is valid? :eek:
 

Benadam

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
341
71
28
I have given you much scripture.

You have given me your opinions.

It appears you place your opinions above scripture.
I thought there was some funny business going on.:ROFL:
 
B

Bede

Guest
The overwhelming majority (26/28) do not say what you claim.

New International Version
The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

New Living Translation
Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!”


English Standard Version
And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”


Berean Study Bible
The angel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”


Berean Literal Bible
And having come to her, he said, "Greetings, you favored with grace! The Lord is with you."


New American Standard Bible
And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."


New King James Version
And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”


King James Bible
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.


Christian Standard Bible
And the angel came to her and said, "Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you."


Contemporary English Version
The angel greeted Mary and said, "You are truly blessed! The Lord is with you."


Good News Translation
The angel came to her and said, "Peace be with you! The Lord is with you and has greatly blessed you!"


Holman Christian Standard Bible
And the angel came to her and said, "Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you."


International Standard Version
The angel came to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!"


NET Bible
The angel came to her and said, "Greetings, favored one, the Lord is with you!"


New Heart English Bible
Having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, you highly favored one. The Lord is with you."


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The Angel entered her presence, and he said to her, “Peace to you, full of grace, our Lord is with you; you are blessed among women.”


GOD'S WORD® Translation
When the angel entered her home, he greeted her and said, "You are favored by the Lord! The Lord is with you."


New American Standard 1977
And coming in, he said to her, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”


King James 2000 Bible
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women.


American King James Version
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women.


American Standard Version
And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee.


Douay-Rheims Bible
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.


Darby Bible Translation
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, [thou] favoured one! the Lord [is] with thee: [blessed art thou amongst women].


English Revised Version
And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee.


Webster's Bible Translation
And the angel came to her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.


Weymouth New Testament
So Gabriel went into the house and said to her, "Joy be to you, favoured one! the Lord is with you."


World English Bible
Having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, you highly favored one! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women!"


Young's Literal Translation
And the messenger having come in unto her, said, 'Hail, favoured one, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women;'
The majority of Bibles you quote are Protestant.

The Greek kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

Saint Jerome, who was trilingual in Latin, Geek and Hebrew translated it as gratiae plena (full of grace) in the Vulgate (beginning of 5th century.

“chaire kecharitomene”

“chaire” - Means "hail” or “rejoice”

"charis" – Means “grace”

"charitoo" – Greek verb ending in omicron omega (“oo”) means to put the person or thing into the state indicated by the root. The root being "charis" or “grace,” "charitoo" means “to put into a state of "grace.”

"ke" – Greek perfect tense prefix indicates a perfected, completed present state as a result of past action. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of past action.

"mene" – Greek passive participle suffix indicates action performed on subject by another. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of the past action of another. As the speaker is the angel Gabriel, the "other" is God.

Therefore, "chaire kecharitomene" means: “Hail, who has been perfectly and completely graced by God.” The common Catholic rendering, "full of grace," while good, may actually fall short! (my emboldening)


See: http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=288189
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
30,881
8,964
113
The majority of Bibles you quote are Protestant.

The Greek kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

Saint Jerome, who was trilingual in Latin, Geek and Hebrew translated it as gratiae plena (full of grace) in the Vulgate (beginning of 5th century.

“chaire kecharitomene”

“chaire” - Means "hail” or “rejoice”

"charis" – Means “grace”

"charitoo" – Greek verb ending in omicron omega (“oo”) means to put the person or thing into the state indicated by the root. The root being "charis" or “grace,” "charitoo" means “to put into a state of "grace.”

"ke" – Greek perfect tense prefix indicates a perfected, completed present state as a result of past action. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of past action.

"mene" – Greek passive participle suffix indicates action performed on subject by another. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of the past action of another. As the speaker is the angel Gabriel, the "other" is God.

Therefore, "chaire kecharitomene" means: “Hail, who has been perfectly and completely graced by God.” The common Catholic rendering, "full of grace," while good, may actually fall short! (my emboldening)


See: http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=288189
Young's literal translation of Luke 1:28:

And the messenger having come in unto her, said, `Hail, favoured one, the Lord [is] with thee; blessed [art] thou among women;'

New Jerusalem Bible:

"He went in and said to her, 'Rejoice, you who enjoy God's favour! The Lord is with you.'"

Catholic.org says

He went in and said to her, 'Rejoice, you who enjoy God's favour! The Lord is with you.'
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
14,083
7,585
113
The majority of Bibles you quote are Protestant.

The Greek kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

Saint Jerome, who was trilingual in Latin, Geek and Hebrew translated it as gratiae plena (full of grace) in the Vulgate (beginning of 5th century.

“chaire kecharitomene”

“chaire” - Means "hail” or “rejoice”

"charis" – Means “grace”

"charitoo" – Greek verb ending in omicron omega (“oo”) means to put the person or thing into the state indicated by the root. The root being "charis" or “grace,” "charitoo" means “to put into a state of "grace.”

"ke" – Greek perfect tense prefix indicates a perfected, completed present state as a result of past action. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of past action.

"mene" – Greek passive participle suffix indicates action performed on subject by another. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of the past action of another. As the speaker is the angel Gabriel, the "other" is God.

Therefore, "chaire kecharitomene" means: “Hail, who has been perfectly and completely graced by God.” The common Catholic rendering, "full of grace," while good, may actually fall short! (my emboldening)


See: http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=288189
According to your own statements here, a better translation is simply "graced", as in "Greetings, graced woman". Taking the name of a verb tense ("... perfect") and attributing perfection to the object is a fallacy of equivocation.
 
B

Bede

Guest
Young's literal translation of Luke 1:28:

And the messenger having come in unto her, said, `Hail, favoured one, the Lord [is] with thee; blessed [art] thou among women;'

New Jerusalem Bible:

"He went in and said to her, 'Rejoice, you who enjoy God's favour! The Lord is with you.'"

Catholic.org says

He went in and said to her, 'Rejoice, you who enjoy God's favour! The Lord is with you.'
Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: (Douay-Rheims
“Hail, full of grace,[a] the Lord is with you!” (RSVCE)
"Rejoice, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Christian Community Bible)

And interestingly, the Amplified Bible (not Catholic) "Hail, O favored one [[a]endued with grace]! The Lord is with you!"
footnote [a] says Luke 1:28 Literal translation
 
B

Bede

Guest
According to your own statements here, a better translation is simply "graced", as in "Greetings, graced woman". Taking the name of a verb tense ("... perfect") and attributing perfection to the object is a fallacy of equivocation.
I go with Blass and DeBrunner "It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." I suspect they know more about Greek than you do
 
B

Bede

Guest
Well that's it for me for the night.
I'll look in tomorrow but I find with these sort of argument, by the time I get back (with the time difference), there are another 10 pages of posts and I just can't catch up. :)