(Refuting Penal Substitution) Jesus Did NOT Satisfy the Wrath of God On The Cross!!

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#42
I'm not sure how to understand your remarks. Elaborate.
What is "free will" according to Greek philosophy the originators of the concept?

How can a non biblical concept have any bearing on scripture.

For believers who deny
limited atonement it has nothing to do with free will.

There is no connection.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,026
1,512
113
#44
See the Scriptures I listed on this thread:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...octrine-of-limited-atonement-biblical.187815/

Actually, it doesn't matter because God has an elect group of believers, and the atonement is only effective for THEM.

So, I don't want to waste real estate defending this, but I have done so on the thread mentioned above.

How do I explain the "all" reference? My explanation is that it is talking about all kinds of men, not Jews. That's really the only way you can reconcile all of Scripture. I believe the atonement ACTUALLY SAVED the elect. It did not simply make salvation possible for all.


Matthew 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Matthew 26:28 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep

John 10:14-18 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

John 10:24-28 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 17:1-11 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. 6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

John 17:20 20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,

John 17:24-26 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

Acts 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

Ephesians 5:25-28 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

Romans 8:32-34 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Hebrews 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Revelation 5:9-10 9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation
, 10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”
yes this makes sense. good post bro. no ifs or buts there
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#45
dont worry this teaching is rare. no one teaches this not a single church in world. just few people in internet.
There is an entire denomination that holds to this in North America.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,665
113
#47
dont worry this teaching is rare. no one teaches this not a single church in world. just few people in internet.
It’s good to see you, brother. How are you?
I hope this message finds you well and blessed in the Name of the Lord.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
#48
What is "free will" according to Greek philosophy the originators of the concept?

How can a non biblical concept have any bearing on scripture.

For believers who deny
limited atonement it has nothing to do with free will.

There is no connection.
I would agree with that. However I don't see how it affects my remarks.

But whatever :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,645
13,120
113
#49
well den dat refutes you coz uv sinned so ur not of God!! dear ohh dear, keep playing these games man u wont have a leg 2 stand on on judgment day!!
if i am able to stand on that day, it will not be by any righteousness of my own, but because my trust has been in the One who justifies the ungodly, and because He, who is able, was also faithful to make me stand

not by might, not by power
He does not delight in the strength of men
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#50
if i am able to stand on that day, it will not be by any righteousness of my own, but because my trust has been in the One who justifies the ungodly, and because He, who is able, was also faithful to make me stand

not by might, not by power
He does not delight in the strength of men
Amen and Amen

Sadly @SpiritDove05 is following a false teacher who preaches on the streets of North America.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,645
13,120
113
#51
u wont have a leg 2 stand on on judgment day!!
srsly it would never be my leg anyhow

He does not delight in the strength of the horse;
He takes no pleasure in the legs of a man.

(Psalm 147:10)
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
763
113
#52
Jesus said his followers would suffer persecution at the hands of unbelievers, like he did,

Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you Jn.15:20

And the Apostles said Jesus suffered for obeying God, for doing what's right

For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins 1Pet.3:17-18
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,665
113
#53
Dave-L

well den dat refutes you coz uv sinned so ur not of God!! dear ohh dear, keep playing these games man u wont have a leg 2 stand on on judgment day!!
I love Ebonics. I love the Ebonics translation of Scripture, especially the one regarding adultery: stick with your own boo.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,590
879
113
61
#54
We obviously know dat Gods wrath is his cup of indignation.

did jesus satisfy the wrath of God? Know don’t be 2 hasty and comment based opinions, on what ur church has taught u, wat uv herd off the pulpit or wat manly tradition says, if u look (deep) into the bible you wont find where jesus (satify’s) or drinks from the cup of Gods wrath.

John 18:11

Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
Ull Only find where jesus provided a substitute 2 wave Gods wrath instead, there 2 different things, Gods wrath still remains just look at scripture,

Revelation 14:9-10 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Acts 12:23 God smote king herod for not giving him glory.

Acts 5 Ananias and Sapphira struck down dead for holding back the money from God!!
R
omans 1:18 the wrath of God is revealed from heaven


Romans 2:5-8 they treasure up wrath for the day of judgment!!

Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
So we sea throughout the new testament especially revelations where Gods wrath is being poured out onto sinners with the releasing of the seals.
Cup of Gods wrath has not been emptied, Cup of wrath is still full folks even after the cross.


If Gods wrath was satisfied at the cross then why is he still pouring out his wrath on people?
If jesus satisified the wrath of God theres no more need of forgiveness of sins, jesus would have paid off our debt. But yet God still requires servitude,


obedience because our debts havnt completely gone he just turns his face at them, matt 6:12 father forgive us our debts.
Through Christ we have the forgiveness of sin they God may have mercy on us, not that they’ve vanish away.


If all sins are paid 4 then theres no more mercy 2 give, mercy is when God doesn’t give us wat we deserve, its when he turns away from giving us wrath like the Passover, the death of pharaohs 1st borns!!

Well, what you think then? If Jesus death at the cross is not sufficient. What then is sufficient?
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
967
384
63
#55
66a12efc229db5ecc5632ec383411840.jpg
Step away from the computer and pick up the Bible.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,026
1,512
113
#58
Limited atonement, Jesus died only for the elect ... Reformed Church
i thought we were takling about the OP doctrine my bad.

i love reformed church. good.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#60
i thought we were takling about the OP doctrine my bad.

i love reformed church. good.
The OP doctrine is not a denomination...it is street preaching but there are many followers.