Refuting The Cessationism Doctrine: Spiritual Gifts, Tongues, Miracles Haven’t Ceased Since Pentecost!!

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1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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#41
I know God still heals, and still gives wisdom, and knowledge, His miracles happen all the time, He moves people vis His devine providence. What I refuted is what Pentecostalism teaches, with that I see chaos and disorder. I also see the wreckage that the health, wealth, and name it claim it has caused. People looking to wonders rather than His word for who He is. Seeking signs rather than his word and listening to charlatans and false prophets, because they tickle their ears with promises of wealth, and the easy life.
This is not at all what Pentecostalism teaches. We shouldn't judge all Pentecostals by some of the bad ones. But I do agree, the charlatans out there really make me sick. They are trying to benefit off God and to me that just ain't cool. They are making money off God's name through false works, getting up saying God told them to say or do something when he did not (trying to make a false name for themselves). They do not have the genuine Spirit of God. They are misleading others and the blood will be on there hands come judgement day.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#42
So this is my question, why didn't Philip lay hands on and pass the Holy Spirit to the Ethiopian eunuch? Why did he not pass the gifts on to the Samarians, but rather waited for Peter and John to come?
Interesting questions. It could be his gift was evangelism and not 'follow-up'. Others thing it was important for the apostles to be involved in the conversion of the first foreigners post Pentecost.

Why then did Paul when giving instructions to Timothy, say if any one is sick bring them to the elders of the church and they will anoint them with oil and the prayer of faith will save the sick, Rather than one of you who has the gift lay hands on them? And take some wine for often infirmities?
Your memory is a little off on this one. James wrote to the church about calling for the elders. The next part of the chapter says to confess your faults one to another and pray one for another that ye may be healed. So not elders could minister in healing, but also all members of the body of Christ.

You are treating one verse as if it contradicts or overrides another. The Bible shows many ways people can be healed. One is through Jesus or the apostles laying hands on them. Another is for 'them that believe' the apostles message to lay hands on the sick. Another is through the elders anointing the sick with oil and praying the prayer of faith. Another is through confessing sins to one another and praying through one another. Psalm 107:20 says, "He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions. " People can be healed by the word of God. And plenty of people are healed because God is merciful to us. Unbelievers get cuts and colds that heal up.

A reference to one means of healing does not negate other references to healing. And James could be an early epistle.

God can heal supernaturally, but Paul still gave Timothy health advice. Paul himself had an infirmity that led him to first visit the Galatians, which probably occurred around 14, but clearly by Acts 16 at the latest, but performed great miracles after this.


Why also does these gifts seemingly disappear in the writings of the next generation of Church fathers? Polycarp, Didache, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, through the reformation leaders like Augustine, and Luther through to the late 1800's you see a lack of any mention of the gifts, why is that?
Have you actually read these documents or studied early church leaders writings? The Didache and Justin Martyr refer to prophets among the Christians at that time, and the Didache gives detailed instructions. I'm not sure if they mentions healing. Ireneaus, a missionary to Gaul, had known Polycarp when he was young and Polycarp was old. Ireneaus wrote of brethren healing, miracles, prophesying, having foreknowledge, speaking in tongues, etc. He considered rejecting prophecy to be a characteristic of the heresies, and also thought that all churches should be able to raise the dead as his had.

Tertullian wrote of healing and casting out demons in his day. This has some quotes:
https://www1.cbn.com/signs-and-wonders-early-post-apostolic-era

Then in 1900 you see this resurgence of the gifts, except you see it very much happening against the instruction Paul gave to the Corinthians. For 1800 years nothing then it comes back, but not as scripture instructs. If you read the Azuza street book you very much see that they were seriously violating the instructions to the Corinthians, by their own description, it was disorderly, some would even say chaotic.
If you read I Corinthians, it is implied that the Corinthians were violating the order that Paul was instructing them about, yet their gifts were genuine. In Seymour's newsletter, at one point, he wrote about the need for order when it came to speaking in tongues, and having interpretation of tongues. If they had genuine gifts and used them in a disorderly manner at first, like the Corinthians were doing, that doesn't mean the gifts were false. The Corinthians' gifts were not fake. And I have come across three or four references to people speaking in tongues that people knew at the Azusa Street revival, and the interpretation of a message in Russian was confirmed by a Russian speaker. One of the attendees said people hearing their own language is part of what drew the crowds.
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
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#43
I don't think maybe it's God's job to convince us .. It's our job to have faith in what He says and we become convinced . If you don't believe or have faith in something spoken in His Word then imo you run the risk of closing that door or having it shut in your face ..
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#44
Do you have a spiritual inability to see words on the screen, or a spiritual inability to retain information, or did you just not read? Gifts could be imparted through the apostles or without their laying hands on others.

I Timothy 4:14
Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.
(NKJV)

Saul of Tarsus also received spiritual gifts without the laying on of hands of the 12 apostles. He did have non-apostolic hands laid on him.

Acts 9
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 13
13 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

A spiritual gift can be given in response to prayer.
I Corinthians 14:13
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

The doctrinal teaching of the New Testament is that spiritual gifts are given as the Spirit wills.
I Corinthians 12
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
(KJV)



You are ignoring scripture that shows gifts being given other ways.

Typically, you post some misunderstanding of scripture. I refute it with scripture. Then you do not respond. Now you are repeating the same error. I think we may have a less incomprehensible garee style poster.
As long as you make these passages say what you need for them to say to prop up your ideas, you will not understand what they mean. If you want the truth, drop your ideas and look at them seeking to learn.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#45
Were I to share with you what I have been used to do and what I have seen, all to the glory of God, you would yet not blieve me, so I will reserve this for those who understand and believe.
So you haven't any examples?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#46
As long as you make these passages say what you need for them to say to prop up your ideas, you will not understand what they mean. If you want the truth, drop your ideas and look at them seeking to learn.
The difference is, I am saying things these passages of scripture support. You quote scriptures that do not support your ideas and theories and you often can't show the connection between the scriptures you quote and the arguments you make.

When your ideas are refuted with scripture, you give brief one or two line posts, like the one above, without actually addressing the arguments made or the scriptures quoted. And then you repeat your already refuted error again.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#48
Who says I don't and why should I throw pearls before the swine .. And why on earth would I lie about it ..
Go raise the dead in this outbreak or heal some people if you have any gifts. You are sinning if you don't.
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
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#49
Go raise the dead in this outbreak or heal some people if you have any gifts. You are sinning if you don't.
Do you know the medical term for ''attenuated''
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#50
The difference is, I am saying things these passages of scripture support. You quote scriptures that do not support your ideas and theories and you often can't show the connection between the scriptures you quote and the arguments you make.

When your ideas are refuted with scripture, you give brief one or two line posts, like the one above, without actually addressing the arguments made or the scriptures quoted. And then you repeat your already refuted error again.
Go raise the dead and heal victims of COVID 19 and prove you are telling the truth. Not to do this when you can is sin.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#52
Go raise the dead and heal victims of COVID 19 and prove you are telling the truth. Not to do this when you can is sin.
I don't see anyone claiming to raise the dead, themselves personally here. But where do you get that last statement? Jesus healed many people who claimed to him for healing, and there were cases where He initiated conversations that led to healing or other ministry. Do you think Jesus healed by not healing all the sick at the pool of Bethesda and by healing one man?
 
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#53
I don't see anyone claiming to raise the dead, themselves personally here. But where do you get that last statement? Jesus healed many people who claimed to him for healing, and there were cases where He initiated conversations that led to healing or other ministry. Do you think Jesus healed by not healing all the sick at the pool of Bethesda and by healing one man?
The gifts raised the dead and healed the sick. If you have them, prove it. There's plenty of dead and dying right now.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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#54
Go raise the dead and heal victims of COVID 19 and prove you are telling the truth. Not to do this when you can is sin.
You are mocking....Why don't you go heal some sick or raise the dead...oh wait never mind, you don't even believe that God can still use people to heal, do you?
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#55
You are mocking....Why don't you go heal some sick or raise the dead...oh wait never mind, you don't even believe that God can still use people to heal, do you?
You cannot prove what you say. If you could you'd be on world news putting an end to the suffering.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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#56
You cannot prove what you say. If you could you'd be on world news putting an end to the suffering.
Please go pray and read your Bible and quit mocking the Word of God.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#58
The gifts raised the dead and healed the sick. If you have them, prove it. There's plenty of dead and dying right now.

same when Jesus walked the earth

you are so hopelessly devoid of any biblical truth while spouting your opinions you have most likely convinced a good many people that you have a version of the Bible that only you possess

thankfully, you will not answer me but it is important your nonsense is refuted

you sound more like the devil tempting Jesus in the wilderness that a Christian who actually is concerned about whether God still heals or not

gifts never healed anyone by the way. a gift did not resurrect Jesus...if you believe He was resurrected that is...not sure that you do believe that

it is always and still the power of God. I have not seen anyone raised from the dead, but I have seen people healed and since Jesus never healed everyone on the earth while He was down here, why try to sound so smart as though demanding a person go into a hospital and heal everyone would prove what you say is the gift of healing

it seems you are confused as to whether people heal or God actually is doing the healing

not surprised that you would think that way
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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#59
You cannot prove what you say. If you could you'd be on world news putting an end to the suffering.
Only God can put an end to suffering. And I'm pretty sure that ain't going to happen full scale until we make it to heaven.

You are totally confused about the gifts. Read it again, because it is a gift of the Spirit and it is the Spirit that works in a man to perform healing or any of the gifts. Do you understand that, if not read the Bible and pray for understanding and that God would open your blinded eyes...
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#60
I don't think maybe it's God's job to convince us .. It's our job to have faith in what He says and we become convinced . If you don't believe or have faith in something spoken in His Word then imo you run the risk of closing that door or having it shut in your face ..
I wouldn't disagree with that myself

we do reap what we sow and some folks are gonna be reaping the whirlwind