Replacement/Supersessionism Theology,Why it Matters

[knownbyGod]

(sorry, I should have quoted James 57 #2 post, excellent words)

Wow, wish I had said this I couldn't agree more. Man's/women's ego, without the conviction of the Holy Spirit, leads us into the "making of our own gods", ideas of God, rather than just reading His Word.

I thank the op for pointing out yet another "idea" though, and so now I can beware of the false teachings. I see nowhere in the bible that the Jewish people are no longer God's chose people. I do see where He allowed the gentiles to "join" the people of God and be in His family as well. Thank you, and I praise you for that Lord, from a gentile

 

[kaylagrl]

Not in Paul's mind:

[/SIZE]Gel 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slavenor free, there is neither male nor female– for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.

But on your view Jew and Greek are not one. They are separate.



Paul seems to have thought that the promises made to Abraham found their total fulfillment in Jesus:

2 Cor 1:20 For every one of God’s promises are “Yes” in him; therefore also through him the “Amen” is spoken, to the glory we give to God.

Now either God has made good on his promises to Abraham in and through Jesus or he hasn't. That's the end of the story.

Romans 11


I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b]5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain.The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c]


11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!


25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h]receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[kaylagrl]

(sorry, I should have quoted James 57 #2 post, excellent words)

Wow, wish I had said this I couldn't agree more. Man's/women's ego, without the conviction of the Holy Spirit, leads us into the "making of our own gods", ideas of God, rather than just reading His Word.

I thank the op for pointing out yet another "idea" though, and so now I can beware of the false teachings. I see nowhere in the bible that the Jewish people are no longer God's chose people. I do see where He allowed the gentiles to "join" the people of God and be in His family as well. Thank you, and I praise you for that Lord, from a gentile

Yes they are still Gods chosen people.I began this thread to let people know about false doctrine so I am glad I made at least one person aware. Yes,we are grafted in and part of His family now but of course we do not replace the Jews.Welcome to the forum,I hadnt seen your posts before.

 

[knownbyGod]

Yes they are still Gods chosen people.I began this thread to let people know about false doctrine so I am glad I made at least one person aware. Yes,we are grafted in and part of His family now but of course we do not replace the Jews.Welcome to the forum,I hadnt seen your posts before.

Thank you Kaylagirl,

I read a bit more, and admit I am getting a little confused (maybe just thought-provoked) because it's one of those very, difficult parts of the bible for me I realize, after this thread. So now I just need to ask God's help in understanding if gentiles are one with the Jewish people. I felt "yes" we are, not separate. I may be wrong though, so I think this will be an excellent thread to read more of. I am open to the leading of the Holy Spirit, but also open to hearing other christians "takes" on the bible. I love studying the Word of God. I don't go as deep as many, but I do wrestle with it being "my own" interpretation, or God's/Holy Spirit

denise, a sister in Christ

 

[kaylagrl]

Thank you Kaylagirl,

I read a bit more, and admit I am getting a little confused (maybe just thought-provoked) because it's one of those very, difficult parts of the bible for me I realize, after this thread. So now I just need to ask God's help in understanding if gentiles are one with the Jewish people. I felt "yes" we are, not separate. I may be wrong though, so I think this will be an excellent thread to read more of. I am open to the leading of the Holy Spirit, but also open to hearing other christians "takes" on the bible. I love studying the Word of God. I don't go as deep as many, but I do wrestle with it being "my own" interpretation, or God's/Holy Spirit

denise, a sister in Christ

The very best we can do is read the Bible and listen to the Holy Spirit. We all have opinions here and you could get easily confused. My opinion from reading the Bible and teaching Ive received from great men of God down through the years is that God is not done with His chosen people. Israel has a part to play on the world stage. The whole world is focused on Israel and what happens there.To me it is a miracle that Israel became a country again after all those years.It never happened to any other country.It was "born in a day" as the Bible says. When the Bible talks about "blooming in the desert" it is talking of Israel. If you look at pictures before Israel became a nation it was barren and desolate. I believe God keeps His promises and He will keep them to His chosen people. I take what God said literally. If you look at Israel on a map you can cover the country with your finger.She is surrounded by enemies on every side and yet she stands. Israel is standing on 1% of the land in the Middle East.If one cannot see that Israel is a miracle they must be reading their Bible upside down.

We are grafted in, Romans 11,to the root which are the Jews. Romans says there is a remnant of Jews who will be saved,the same way we are saved.The Bible says they will "see Him whom they have pierced...and mourn". My point is that we do not replace the Jews.The promises and blessings God said are theirs do not belong to the church.

I hope you do find what you believe on this subject.Its very important in the last days to know what we believe.Please dont allow arguments here to confuse you. You need to seek God for yourself. Ive shared what I believe but we need to know for ourselves what we believe.I think you are that type of Christian. Have a blessed day!

 

[knownbyGod]

My thought was the church, Bride of Christ (body of Christ) and that we are one with the "saved" Jewish folks because of Christ. But I also see that many Jews still do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, and do believe that God is not finished with them. And that He is not finished with the "world" since He has not yet returned for the 2nd time.

It's, like I mentioned, very thought provoking. I follow a few teachers I respect as well, and will see if I can do a bit of study to help me answer this for myself.

Thank you so much for your input denise, a sister in Christ

 

[JimmieD]

Romans 11


I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b]5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain.The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c]


11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!


25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h]receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Does this mean you won't be responding to the 2 verses I posted? This is of course very typical. Rather than address things posted, it's much easier to throw up some other verses - also called a "red herring" in some circles. Quoting Romans 11, without any commentary to boot, doesn't at all address the problem you appear to have with the verses I posted from 2 Cor and Gal. Why don't we both take turns showing different verses to each other? This is how these "discussions" usually devolve.

Besides, I think Romans 11 supports my view, which follows closely with that of NT Wright:

http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Romans_Theology_Paul.pdf

 

[knownbyGod]

Does this mean you won't be responding to the 2 verses I posted? This is of course very typical. Rather than address things posted, it's much easier to throw up some other verses - also called a "red herring" in some circles. Quoting Romans 11, without any commentary to boot, doesn't at all address the problem you appear to have with the verses I posted from 2 Cor and Gal. Why don't we both take turns showing different verses to each other? This is how these "discussions" usually devolve.

Besides, I think Romans 11 supports my view, which follows closely with that of NT Wright:

http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Romans_Theology_Paul.pdf

I was just remembering how Jesus always used scripture, so why would it be wrong for us to use it when stating a reply? Everyone has an opinion, but the Truth is written in His Word.

 

[JimmieD]

I was just remembering how Jesus always used scripture, so why would it be wrong for us to use it when stating a reply?

Because she didn't address the points I made - she avoided them. There's nothing wrong with using scripture - in fact, it would be great if those verses I posted out of Galatians and 2 Corinthians were addressed. You're welcome to address them too.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

eternally-grateful,

You should read your Bible better and without the blinders of Scofield. This has been the fallacy of most of the earthly kingdom theory that Covenants are only one way. By definition it is an agreement between two parties. There is no covenant or promise of God that is unconditional. The only reason that God did what He did regarding walking through the fire, is because Abram was having a tough time with his faith in believing God. It is essentially God reinforcing His promise, but it does not negate the covenent made before that refinement where obedience is required. The whole issue of sacrificing Isacc was to cement Abraham's trust and faith.

The promise begins in Gen 12 and goes through several additions in chapter 3, 7, 13, 14, 17 18, 21, 22 and possibly elsewhere. It is one of promise from God and the only requirement here as in other covenants of scripture, is faithfulness, trust in God. Gen 17:9ff. All through scripture including those with Adam, Noah, Moses, David and finally Christ are all conditional. Hebrews spells out the New Covenant but also shows how the old covenent failed. It uses Jer 31: 31-34 to show the better promises than the Old Covenant. The fact that the new replaces the old, clearly states that the old is no longer in effect.

The only interpreter, guess who, that says it was one way, is Scofield and other premillennialist/dispensationalist and he has an ax to grind to support his errant view.
You fail everytime as man will with personal interpretations. You self convict with your man made theory where scripture needs to be changed to authenticate a premise to supposedly make it scriptural.

Keep listening to men.

I will listen to the word of God.

When God, OR ANYONE FOR THAT MATTER,

Says I WILL

Make you a great nation
Make you the father of many nations
make you a blessing to all nations through your seed
Give you and your descendents this land (God called Canaan) as an eternal possession.

and asks for nothing in return, but abrahams faith (Abraham believed God and it was acrdited to him for righteousness)

I take Gods word. some some man who says otherwise.

So keep following men, thats your choice, but do noot get mad at me when God proves your men wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If this has already been covered please forgive me, I'm traveling today and can't keep up with all the action. Anyway, do any of you think that Abraham was a Christian just like us?

If we was not saved just like us. then he was not saved, (which would be against scripture) or we are not saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you think God gave the land of Canaan to Abraham or did he give him the world or did he give him both?

“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— [SUP]19 [/SUP]the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, [SUP]20 [/SUP]the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, [SUP]21 [/SUP]the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

So what is this? is this the world??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

LOL you are sooooo arrogant.

Yep. This is going to convince me.

Why is it you only want to rip people apart who believe in Young Earth and Pre-Millenialism. Do you think God has given you a mission or something? I never hear you talk about the gospel. or trying to win people to Christ. or anything like that. Is there a reason?

You're not arguing with me you are arguing with God (but then you do that all the time)

That would be you.

And I am not arguing with anyone, I could care less what you believe in this issue, We all will know the truth one day, And unlike you. I am not to arrogant to try to force anyone to believe the way I do here. Or judge that they are not saved, or not of God..

ust for your information, I know the writer to the Hebrews is not known, but he wasn't me lol

What did he say - they seek a better country, that is a heavenly. So you'd better argue with God

Argue about what? That Abraham seeked a better country than ANY COUNTRY HERE ON EARTH? I am not going to argue with this. I DO THAT, YOU BETTER DO THAT, AND EVERYONE HERE BETTER DO THAT.

But that does not mean God did not give abraham a peace of land, and his family. Just like God gave me a peace of land (although small) and a country (the United States)

I know it debunks your whole position, but that's the way it is

No, it does not, But your to arrogant and proud to see that.

It actually makes me laugh, I am amazed people can think they are so smart, When they have not even begun to make an argument.

Can I send you a New Testament? You would find it interesting

I would rather have both the old and new, They go together.

 

[valiant]

The very best we can do is read the Bible and listen to the Holy Spirit.

True

We all have opinions here and you could get easily confused. My opinion from reading the Bible and teaching Ive received from great men of God down through the years is that God is not done with His chosen people.

Well I prefer the Holy Spirit and Scripture As WE are His chosen people (1 Pet 2.9) it is clear He is not finished with us. But He is certainly finished with unbelieving Judaism.

Israel has a part to play on the world stage. The whole world is focused on Israel and what happens there.

I think you overexaggerate their importance. The whole world is focussed on ISIS but what does that prove? The present nation of Israel is man's invention. It commenced when Zionists took possession of an empty country in the nineteenth century. It is not related to the promises of God. God's promises are to believers, not unbelievers. And believing Israel were the foundation of the church which is God's holy nation (1 Pet 2.9)

To me it is a miracle that Israel became a country again after all those years.It never happened to any other country.

It happened to the Palestinians.

It was "born in a day" as the Bible says.

Actually it wasn't. It was founded in the late nineteenth century by Zionists, confirmed by the 1917 Balfour Declaration. 1948 was simply when it chose to declare itself a nation.

When the Bible talks about "blooming in the desert" it is talking of Israel. If you look at pictures before Israel became a nation it was barren and desolate.

LOL it depends where you looked What do you think the Zionist were doing who had settled there?

I believe God keeps His promises and He will keep them to His chosen people.

He has done. Here we are, God's olive tree (Rom 11.12-24)

I take what God said literally.

So do I. That's why I believe we ARE Israel (Gal 3.28; 6.16; Eph 2.11-22; Rom 11.12-24; 1 Peter 2.9; John 15.1-6)..

If you look at Israel on a map you can cover the country with your finger.She is surrounded by enemies on every side and yet she stands.

I wonder if it can be anything to do with America's aid, her atomic bombs, her modern weaponry and training?

Israel is standing on 1% of the land in the Middle East.If one cannot see that Israel is a miracle they must be reading their Bible upside down.

LOL read the history. It was no miracle. That is the invention of fertile minds.

We are grafted in, Romans 11,to the root which are the Jews

.

Yes to the olive tree. So we have become part of Israel (not part of the Jews).

Romans says there is a remnant of Jews who will be saved,the same way we are saved.

Sooooo? There will also be a remnant of Arabs lol

The Bible says they will "see Him whom they have pierced...and mourn".

Some will and those who do will become members of the true Israel, the church.

My point is that we do not replace the Jews.

The unbelieving Jews displaced themselves. But you must not equate the Jews with Israel. Paul quite clearly distinguishes them. Unbelieving Jews were cut off from Israel. Believing Gentiles were grafted in, thus becoming Israel.

The promises and blessings God said are theirs do not belong to the church.

They belong to Israel, BELIEVING Israel, and that is now the true Messiah believing church.

I hope you do find what you believe on this subject.

I have already found it in the New Testament

Its very important in the last days to know what we believe.Please dont allow arguments here to confuse you. You need to seek God for yourself.

True but its also important to be right

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thank you Kaylagirl,

I read a bit more, and admit I am getting a little confused (maybe just thought-provoked) because it's one of those very, difficult parts of the bible for me I realize, after this thread. So now I just need to ask God's help in understanding if gentiles are one with the Jewish people. I felt "yes" we are, not separate. I may be wrong though, so I think this will be an excellent thread to read more of. I am open to the leading of the Holy Spirit, but also open to hearing other christians "takes" on the bible. I love studying the Word of God. I don't go as deep as many, but I do wrestle with it being "my own" interpretation, or God's/Holy Spirit

denise, a sister in Christ

remember the issue here is not who is saved and who is not saved.

All people who are born again are one in christ, there is neither jew or gentile. free or slave, male or female. we are one in Christ (from adam until the last person who will ever be saved, this is true of all of us)

The issue is, Did God make specific promises and give them to the nation of Israel (which have absolutely nothing to do wiht salvation of anyone) that he di dnot make with any other people groups (gentile) and are those promises still valid today.

people want to try to make it all fit into one puzzle. and not separate the two. (ie both issues are salvic in nature and related) But we can not do that, God did not. nore should we.

 

[mperelli]

Rom11.23 posted here is the key Scripture to this

 

[DP]

I'm not surprised that this thread is still going on. There are so many brethren that haven't bothered to study the OT Scriptures along with the NT which has produced a one-sided view in their minds about God's Israel and His Church through Jesus Christ.

At the same time, Jewish traditions also have gotten in the way of many believing Jew's understanding about Christ's Church and how it directly relates to God's Israel also.

Darby's theory of dispensationalism is one of the major factors to blame among Gentile believers, as that doctrine was created to help support his false pre-tribulational rapture theory, trying to keep Christ's raptured Church separate from "left-behind" Israel, and with that theory of separation continuing through Christ's "thousand years" after the tribulation with His Church in Heaven while Israel is setup as a kingdom on the earth for that time.

The name 'Israel' is the new name God gave to Jacob involving the transferred blessing He first gave to Abraham. And that involved the Promise by Faith given through Abraham, which is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ (see Galatians 3). The Gospel is part of God's Birthright Blessing through Abraham, then to Isaac, and then Jacob, and then to Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. That name Israel cannot be separated from Christ's Salvation of The Gospel, for that is what the name represents.

In Romans 11 Apostle Paul explained that the Gentiles who believe are graffed in, and to not boast against the branches that were broken off (unbelieving Israel) so Salvation could also go to the Gentiles. If the unbelieving branches of Israel that were broken off come to believe on Christ Jesus, then God is able to graff them in again. When Jesus comes, and the unbelievers of Israel see Him, then the majority of them will believe and understand, which is one of the subjects of the Zechariah 12-13 prophecy. Paul said that blindness in part has been put upon unbelieving Israel, but will one day be removed (when Jesus returns), and so all Israel shall be saved.

Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.'
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

 

[kaylagrl]

Does this mean you won't be responding to the 2 verses I posted? This is of course very typical. Rather than address things posted, it's much easier to throw up some other verses - also called a "red herring" in some circles. Quoting Romans 11, without any commentary to boot, doesn't at all address the problem you appear to have with the verses I posted from 2 Cor and Gal. Why don't we both take turns showing different verses to each other? This is how these "discussions" usually devolve.

Besides, I think Romans 11 supports my view, which follows closely with that of NT Wright:

http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Romans_Theology_Paul.pdf

As I said earlier,I am a wife.That means I have a house to care for and a husband to boot. I may jump in from time to time.If you want something answered directly,say so. Its too much to sit and respond to every part of each persons post.Right now Im looking at my fall decor and trying to decide when to replace it with Christmas stuff. Ug. So I do have other things to do and on my mind. Unless you want to come and take down my decorations for me and put up Christmas.I warn you though,Im a perfectionist! Just ask my husband...

 

[valiant]

remember the issue here is not who is saved and who is not saved.

All people who are born again are one in christ, there is neither jew or gentile. free or slave, male or female. we are one in Christ (from adam until the last person who will ever be saved, this is true of all of us)

The issue is, Did God make specific promises and give them to the nation of Israel (which have absolutely nothing to do wiht salvation of anyone) that he di dnot make with any other people groups (gentile) and are those promises still valid today.

people want to try to make it all fit into one puzzle. and not separate the two. (ie both issues are salvic in nature and related) But we can not do that, God did not. nore should we.

You are still mixed up as to what we believe. Try and read what I say carefully without your usual presuppositions.

We do not believe that anyone has 'replaced' anyone. We believe that Israel has CONTINUED. If you know anything about what the Old Testament really says you will know that 'Israel' regularly lost members when those members ceased to believe, and regularly took on Gentile proselytes when they believed in YHWH.

As you know Isaiah prophesied that a remnant would be saved. That remnant was those who believed in the Messiah in the days of Jesus and the early days of the Apostles. They were a LARGE remnant and they formed the true Israel recognised by God. As Paul says unbelieving Jews were CUT OFF.

In accordance with God's plan many Gentiles became proselytes through their ministry and as always with proselytes BECAME MEMBERS OF ISRAEL. They were grafted into the olive tree.

Thus Israel continued, founded on the true Messiah believing Jews (the true Israel) augmented by converts as had ALWAYS happened to Israel.

So the promises to Israel are RIGHTLY made to the church (congregation) of true believers in the Messiah.

There is no mixing up at all.

 

[valiant]

As I said earlier,I am a wife.That means I have a house to care for and a husband to boot. I may jump in from time to time.If you want something answered directly,say so. Its too much to sit and respond to every part of each persons post.Right now Im looking at my fall decor and trying to decide when to replace it with Christmas stuff. Ug. So I do have other things to do and on my mind. Unless you want to come and take down my decorations for me and put up Christmas.I warn you though,Im a perfectionist! Just ask my husband...

LOL I'll be round in half an hour Just getting into my transporter. Don't boot your husband too hard lol