If we believe that the words of the bible are divinely inspired, shouldn't we also believe that the order of the books which make up the bible was also divinely inspired, even though it was selected by men? I know John wrote Revelation before the bible was put together, but surely God knew Revelation would end up being the last book of the bible. Could it be said that God always intended the bible to be read as one book? I mean I'd be interested to know how many people throughout history have tended to own and read the books of the bible as separate books...I don't know, maybe some people do. I just think it was always meant to be connected.
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
They are all valid points you raise if we are talking about successive formulation of doctrine or God's plan and purpose. Yet we mustn't forget that each book is exactly that, a book written by a single or multiple authors, at an intended time for an intended purpose. Many wrong doctrines are made by taking isolated scriptures and liberally applying them to the whole of scripture. That should not be done. Each verse in each chapter of each book of the bible is written with a specific purpose in mind and a specific context. For that reason, I maintain that the warning at the end of Revelation is exclusively intended for that very book and none other. I say that because they are very stern warnings that carry eternal consequences. This is a specific book which Christ told the author to write and distribute to the churches. Such a warning (ancient form of copyright protection) would be required, to stop people adding erroneous revelations to the book, or removing the existing content, for such an important work. There are no such commands from Christ to distribute Paul's letters to the churches, for example, or to write a Gospel account of Luke, for example. That is probably why they do not have such a warning at the end of them. Tampering with the instructions from Paul to the churches to send him money for example, is no where near a severe enough crime to warrant the threat of having your name removed out of the book of life. But tampering with important and inspired prophetic revelation to the churches, could carry eternal consequences as the warning says. We have to divide scripture rightly, and meshing every book of the bible together and calling it one book, is not dividing scripture rightly. It is like putting a hamburger in a blender and claiming it is still a hamburger. But then your meat gets mixed in with your salad and the meat doesn't look like meat anymore neither does the salad look like salad.
As a Christian we divide scripture all the time. We distinguish the Law of Moses and old covenant from the new. We separate the old testament scriptures from the new. We disregard the Sabbath even though it is written in there as a command. Yet, others may read them as a cohesive whole, and attempt to fulfill the Law of Moses as well as follow Christ, by keeping the Sabbath, from eating pork , and other things like these.
Regarding 2Tim 3:16, bible commentaries I read about this verse usually say it refers to the OT, eg Barnes commentary:
All Scripture - This properly refers to the Old Testament, and should not be applied to any part of the New Testament, unless it can be shown that that part was then written, and was included under the general name of "the Scriptures;" compare 2Pe_3:15-16. But it includes the whole of the Old Testament, and is the solemn testimony of Paul that it was all inspired. If now it can be proved that Paul himself was an inspired man, this settles the question as to the inspiration of the Old Testament.
I don't have a separatist outlook on Revelation. This is about properly interpreting a couple of passages in Revelation in correct context and meaning of the book in which they are contained. The only reason we might think it applies to the whole bible is if we see the bible as a spiritual wonder that has dropped from the sky out of heaven 100% perfect. Not realising the large amount of human effort, history, context, and decision making that has gone into the process.
Wrong assessment. I simply deny the absense of human free-will and the inability to choose. Your beliefs basically think liberty is a license to sin or lose faith, and still be saved regardless. Sorry to say, but this belief system resonates with contemporary protestantism and popular modern day christianity, but don't really line up that well with scripture or christian history. This is not just about my belief system, but there are an awful lot, and I mean an awful lot, of past notable bible teachers, scholars, theologians, preachers, and church denominations, who believe as I do. One is the very denomination which gave us the KJV.
Well, you are no one to suggest I or any other person are "not free in Christ", just because I don't believe the same as you.
Yes, I do put conditions on grace. It's called having faith. It's called obeying Christ. It's called Grace through faith, as it says in Ephesians.. Lack of faith (i.e. trusting in the law) , and we "fall from grace" (Gal 5), and Christ is of no effect, which is equivalent to denying Him. If you "fall from" something, do you still have it? No. If you lose grace, do you still have salvation? Logically.. no. If you deny Christ, is he going to say, "well come on inside my faithful servant to your happy home in heaven". No, it says in 2 Ti 2:11 "....If we deny Him, He also will deny us. "
Mat 10:33 But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in Heaven.
Is this spoken only to unbelievers? No, it's spoken to us, to "whoever". Anyone.
I don't mean this to be a debate about eternal security, but I say this to highlight the absurdity believing in the warning of Revelations as 100% literally applying to the whole of the bible, when you guys don't even believe that if a person's name is removed from the book of life, they don't get to go to heaven. That is some contradiction.
but you neglected to say....."through faith".
As a Christian we divide scripture all the time. We distinguish the Law of Moses and old covenant from the new. We separate the old testament scriptures from the new. We disregard the Sabbath even though it is written in there as a command. Yet, others may read them as a cohesive whole, and attempt to fulfill the Law of Moses as well as follow Christ, by keeping the Sabbath, from eating pork , and other things like these.
Regarding 2Tim 3:16, bible commentaries I read about this verse usually say it refers to the OT, eg Barnes commentary:
All Scripture - This properly refers to the Old Testament, and should not be applied to any part of the New Testament, unless it can be shown that that part was then written, and was included under the general name of "the Scriptures;" compare 2Pe_3:15-16. But it includes the whole of the Old Testament, and is the solemn testimony of Paul that it was all inspired. If now it can be proved that Paul himself was an inspired man, this settles the question as to the inspiration of the Old Testament.
I don't have a separatist outlook on Revelation. This is about properly interpreting a couple of passages in Revelation in correct context and meaning of the book in which they are contained. The only reason we might think it applies to the whole bible is if we see the bible as a spiritual wonder that has dropped from the sky out of heaven 100% perfect. Not realising the large amount of human effort, history, context, and decision making that has gone into the process.
Wrong assessment. I simply deny the absense of human free-will and the inability to choose. Your beliefs basically think liberty is a license to sin or lose faith, and still be saved regardless. Sorry to say, but this belief system resonates with contemporary protestantism and popular modern day christianity, but don't really line up that well with scripture or christian history. This is not just about my belief system, but there are an awful lot, and I mean an awful lot, of past notable bible teachers, scholars, theologians, preachers, and church denominations, who believe as I do. One is the very denomination which gave us the KJV.
Well, you are no one to suggest I or any other person are "not free in Christ", just because I don't believe the same as you.
Yes, I do put conditions on grace. It's called having faith. It's called obeying Christ. It's called Grace through faith, as it says in Ephesians.. Lack of faith (i.e. trusting in the law) , and we "fall from grace" (Gal 5), and Christ is of no effect, which is equivalent to denying Him. If you "fall from" something, do you still have it? No. If you lose grace, do you still have salvation? Logically.. no. If you deny Christ, is he going to say, "well come on inside my faithful servant to your happy home in heaven". No, it says in 2 Ti 2:11 "....If we deny Him, He also will deny us. "
Mat 10:33 But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in Heaven.
Is this spoken only to unbelievers? No, it's spoken to us, to "whoever". Anyone.
I don't mean this to be a debate about eternal security, but I say this to highlight the absurdity believing in the warning of Revelations as 100% literally applying to the whole of the bible, when you guys don't even believe that if a person's name is removed from the book of life, they don't get to go to heaven. That is some contradiction.
but you neglected to say....."through faith".
Last edited:
I was in my early 20's and as a lay person, I preached on a Sunday morning. Well, that afternoon my pastor drove down to pick me up to go with him to a Sunday evening service. On the way he brought up the subject that I preached on in the morning and in a very loving way explained it. I got convicted because I got it all wrong and told him about it and asked him what I should do to correct it. He said, your young and it's common and told me to do nothing. I asked why? He told me that over the last 25 yrs it had happened to him on a number of occasions and he found the best way to deal with it, is to say nothing and correct it personally. If you try to correct it otherwise, you'll bring lots of attention to it and some might mistrust you in the future. He told me to preach Christ, the love of God, the grace of God and get the people to fall in love with Christ. Most will forget about it and those that love you will realize that you just made a mistake. If anyone asks you about it just be honest and tell them that you made a mistake and you corrected it. If anyone takes issue with you on it, just go to them alone and explain it in meekness and gain them back. There is nothing more that you can do after that.
Well, just be aware there's two main views in christianity. One is that you can't lose salvation if your name is taken from the book of life. The other is you can. You can believe whatever you think. But I believe you can. But if your name is taken out of the book, I am sure it is not an unforgiveable sin that you can't have it written back in.
King David said, after he commited adultery and murder:
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Moses said, distraught by the sin of the people:
Exo 32:32 And now will You forgive their sin! And if not, I pray You, blot me out of Your book which You have written.
Exo 32:33 And Jehovah said to Moses, Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
First of all, we have the example of David asking God not to remove His Spirit from him. Secondly, we have an example of Moses asking God to blot his name out of the book. Not only that, a statement from God saying that only those of His people who sinned against Him, will he blot out of His book.
What should be obvious is that it is not impossible for a servant of God to have their name removed. Nor for God to remove the names of those who sin amongst His own people. And I don't know what other consequence there would be for this other than to go to hell.
The difference is, those who believe you can't lose salvation, think that having your name removed from God's book is a trivial matter and not as serious as it is really is. That there are no eternal consequences for tampering with Revelations or having your name removed from the Book of Life.
God knows everything, of course. He also knew which books Joyce Meyer and Benny Hinn would write and how they would be put together too. Perhaps we could apply your same argument to ALL books that are written by Christians, and call them Scripture and apply the warning of Revelation to them too. Afterall, they too are written by inspired men and women of God.
But whether that means He inspired the author of John to put a warning in there prematurely, before the whole bible was written, is another matter. Is the warning Revelation a prophetic warning?
I don't think so. The one in Rev. was written for the readers of that particular book at that time.
This is obvious when we read the actual verses. Vs 18 for example, refers to the prophecy of "this book". It's not referring to the prophecy of any other book. It refers specifically to the plagues contained in "this book". Rev. contains many plagues. Other prophetic books in the bible do not contain such plagues, so it cannot refer to these as well.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Again verse 19 has specific language referring to the things contained only in the book of Revelation. ie. the holy city.
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
So I believe that this warning is specific to the book of Revelations and not a general warning applying to all and every scripture. That doesn't mean there are other warnings relevant for the rest of scripture, or that God won't judge people who tamper with the Scriptures. But I think it's important to read Rev 22:19 in context.
King David said, after he commited adultery and murder:
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Moses said, distraught by the sin of the people:
Exo 32:32 And now will You forgive their sin! And if not, I pray You, blot me out of Your book which You have written.
Exo 32:33 And Jehovah said to Moses, Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
First of all, we have the example of David asking God not to remove His Spirit from him. Secondly, we have an example of Moses asking God to blot his name out of the book. Not only that, a statement from God saying that only those of His people who sinned against Him, will he blot out of His book.
What should be obvious is that it is not impossible for a servant of God to have their name removed. Nor for God to remove the names of those who sin amongst His own people. And I don't know what other consequence there would be for this other than to go to hell.
The difference is, those who believe you can't lose salvation, think that having your name removed from God's book is a trivial matter and not as serious as it is really is. That there are no eternal consequences for tampering with Revelations or having your name removed from the Book of Life.
God knows everything, of course. He also knew which books Joyce Meyer and Benny Hinn would write and how they would be put together too. Perhaps we could apply your same argument to ALL books that are written by Christians, and call them Scripture and apply the warning of Revelation to them too. Afterall, they too are written by inspired men and women of God.
But whether that means He inspired the author of John to put a warning in there prematurely, before the whole bible was written, is another matter. Is the warning Revelation a prophetic warning?
I don't think so. The one in Rev. was written for the readers of that particular book at that time.
This is obvious when we read the actual verses. Vs 18 for example, refers to the prophecy of "this book". It's not referring to the prophecy of any other book. It refers specifically to the plagues contained in "this book". Rev. contains many plagues. Other prophetic books in the bible do not contain such plagues, so it cannot refer to these as well.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Again verse 19 has specific language referring to the things contained only in the book of Revelation. ie. the holy city.
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
So I believe that this warning is specific to the book of Revelations and not a general warning applying to all and every scripture. That doesn't mean there are other warnings relevant for the rest of scripture, or that God won't judge people who tamper with the Scriptures. But I think it's important to read Rev 22:19 in context.
Last edited:
And you have done the same, claiming I said things which I never said (where did I claim I was a better bible scholar?). what the very last sentence in your post here..
"Since I believe anyone, non-christian or Christian, who tampers with Rev. will lose salvation (name out of the book of life), I guess that means I believe in what the scripture says, the warning in revelation, more than you do. "
Last edited by MahogonySnail; 1 Day Ago at 11:37 AM.
Yes, where in that did I claim I was a better bible scholar? I only said I believe in what the scripture says, more than you do. You don't believe that if your name is taken from the book of life, you lose salvation. You don't take the warning in Revelation as seriously as it is meant to be. I on the other hand, unlike you, do believe in the seriousness of the warning.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
He does not save men (or women) in disobedience.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
He does not save men (or women) in disobedience.
S
How do i know i didnt commit the the sin because i feel soooo guilty that i did and i feel that it is possible i might have changed the meaning, this is a big problem for me and i have OCD and its hard for me to understand it. I love God and i believe he died for us and rose from the grave and is the Son of God andhave repented and accepted him into my life as lord and savior but im afraid of these things.
First, don't even listen to what MahoganySnail, or anyone that think like he does, has to say about being blotted out of the book of life. I don't care what verses they throw your way, they have it all wrong and they are very strange because they do not understand grace nor the nature of God's love through God's eternal redemption that has saved you eternally forever. When you believed upon Christ, Jesus Christ went to the Father and proclaimed your name from the Lamb's book of life to the Father and to the angels. You were sealed by the blood of the Lamb forever and it is impossible for your name to be blotted out. You can't do anything to get it blotted out either. You may make some youthful errors and indiscretions, but your name is secured in that book, that is sealed by the blood of the Lamb. Don't you let anyone tell you different for the rest of your life.
S
This guy is trying to set stumbling blocks in front of you. Any one handing out sin passes is obviously not of God. The entire Bible speaks against this (osas) and it has only been being taught for aprox. 500 years. It is a new age doctrine designed by satan to lead people to hell. If you choose to walk away from Christ then he will let you. These people that say you can never lose your salvation are some of the most lost people in the world, you can't lead someone to God when they already think they are there.
He thinks that I am handing out grace as a 'sin pass', so that people can live in sin. He does not understand the cross and the finished work of Christ (John 19:30). He does not understand that when sin abounds, grace does much more abound so that we will not continue in sin (Rom 5:20-6:2). He does not know what it means to be justified freely by grace and the blood of Christ through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Rom 3:24, 5:9 ). He does not understand that God will not impute sin to the believer because all sin was imputed to Jesus Christ on the cross (Rom 4:8, 2Cor 5:19). He does know the love of God (charity) that covers a multitude of sin (1Pt 4:8). He forgets that when he first believed and trusted in Christ, that he was cleansed and purged from all his sins and trespasses (Eph 2:1, Col 2:13, Heb 1:3, 10:2, 2Pt 1:9). He accuses those that minister grace to those that have sinned, as if they are condoning sin and sending people to hell. Wasn't Jesus Christ ministering grace to all sinners on the cross by having all their sin transferred to His body and paying the wages of those sins through his own death? This man has no idea as to why Christ came, why he shed his blood or how He justifies sinners. This man is nothing more then a stubborn boneheaded mule that lacks the intelligence of faith in the efficacious sacrifice and substitutionary atonement that was provided by Christ's death, burial and resurrection.
I am really offended by most folks who opposes OSAS, for they always assume that we that believe this Gospel of Christ and His power not only to save us through the Blood, and also His power to keep us saved, that we use it as a a license to sin, we know Romans 6 as well as anyone, that through Christ we are free from sin not free To sin. So I preach romans 12:1-2 more at church than most any other verses. look at the bottom of the page you will find it there also. so to say that because I believe Once Saved Always Saved that I pass out sin passes is a very false statement, although I do know some will try to take advantage of it as well as they will, any other thing that they can take advantage of. but to lump all OSAS believers into this group is just not fair. we believe that if someone does walk away from their serving of God that they break their fellowship with God but not the relationship. which goes along with the chastisement doctrine, where if we do something that displeases our Father He whips us, not kick us out of the Family. He is still our Father and He proves this by whipping those that are His. and If we are His, He will never leave us nor forsake us. I would tremble the entire walk through this life if I thought for one minute that I had to keep myself saved, and who would ever be able to keep themselves saved. Now I been told by other folks than in here, if we die with unrepented sin we will burn, But God pointed out to me today, if we keep the Commandment Jesus gave us on prayer, forgive our debts as we forgive we forgive our debtors. there is no unrepented sin, for Jesus told us to pray daily. and if Jesus told us to forgive others 490 times(7 times 70) how much more will the Father forgive us, His Children? one more thought if Jesus is Heb 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,Heb 12:2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
see folks it does tell us to set aside sin, but it aslo says that Jesus started our faith and He is the finisher out of faith. I feel for all those that are under the bondage of believeing that they have to finish it themselves. God bless
see folks it does tell us to set aside sin, but it aslo says that Jesus started our faith and He is the finisher out of faith. I feel for all those that are under the bondage of believeing that they have to finish it themselves. God bless
BLC, I've read enough of your posts about sin and repentance to know you yourself aren't exactly the bulwark of sound Christian doctrine.
YEt I will show the contradiction between your beliefs and scripture right now:
BLC said: "...it is impossible for your name to be blotted out"
Scripture says:
Exo 32:33 The LORD answered, "It is those who have sinned against me whose names I will remove from my book. "
You claim something is impossible for God, that Scripture says is entirely possible.
Sinnner is correct in his statement that your beliefs lead to a doctrine that it is OK to tamper with relevatons, you won't lose salvation. Tell us that isn't the case. Or else, please explain how a person can have their name removed from the book of life, and still make it to heaven? You or the pastor have so far been unable to answer that.
YEt I will show the contradiction between your beliefs and scripture right now:
BLC said: "...it is impossible for your name to be blotted out"
Scripture says:
Exo 32:33 The LORD answered, "It is those who have sinned against me whose names I will remove from my book. "
You claim something is impossible for God, that Scripture says is entirely possible.
Sinnner is correct in his statement that your beliefs lead to a doctrine that it is OK to tamper with relevatons, you won't lose salvation. Tell us that isn't the case. Or else, please explain how a person can have their name removed from the book of life, and still make it to heaven? You or the pastor have so far been unable to answer that.
I know OSAS believers claim not to treat sin lightly or hand out sin passes. But in reality that is what your beliefs do. You have not realised how contradictory your beliefs are when faced with verses such as the warning in Revelation or even Exo 32:33 about God removing names from His book. Which is why you have so much trouble explaining just what having your name removed from the book of life actually means.
This is the book that records the names of everyone of His children. This is not a trivial "naughty book" where God takes away some candy or rewards from them but still lets them into heaven. There is only one book as far as I can tell, it's mentioned in the old testament and also in the new. There is no special book just for Christians who believe in OSAS and are always saved.
I have found that the only consistent belief throughout the old and new testaments is the belief that God has full power and capability and ability to cut off, or reject, a person who once named the name of Christ. He cut off His own people the Israelites, who are the natural branch, what makes you think he'll treat anyone else any different? He is no respector of persons.
You are telling me that as a pastor, after reading and full well knowing all the scriptures about God not forgiving us unless we forgive others, cutting off our hand so we can enter into life rather than have the whole body thrown into hell, plus the examples in the old testament of God's own people falling and stumbling in the desert, God stating that the soul which sins shall die, the fact that 1 John 5:16 and others says sin can lead to death, the fact that in James it says a person who turns a brother who errs from the truth, saves their soul from death (James 5:19-20).. and even the Jews presently being rejected by God due to unbelief...you still believe that it is "impossible to lose salvation", and have never clued to the possibility that you and the OSAS doctrine may just be wrong and contradicts a lot of the scriptures I have just above mentioned.
- Status