Eph 1:17-23 'That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.'
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ok you ask wht we do with exd. 32:33 let me put it back in contents where you haven't taken it out of for you, I can take one verse out of contents and make the Bible say anything I want it to. apparently you can too. when we want the contents of a verse we read two or three verses in front of that verse and after that verse so let's look at exd. 32:33 .
Ex 32:31And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.Ex 32:32Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.Ex 32:33And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.Ex 32:34Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.Ex 32:35And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.
Moses went to God and spoke for the people and said God forgive them of their sin and if not then blot me out instead of them. and God said to Moses I will blot the one that sinned out of my book not a substitute.but then scripture tells us that God went on to plague the people that chose Him not all died Ex 32:26Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
but all had sinned but all were given a chance to repent and only those that didn't repent was killed, really shouldn't take scripture out of content to try and prove false teaching if makes you look really bad when everyone sees that true meaning of the scripture.
but this goes back to the question I ask you to show me scriptures when our names were written into the lamb's book of life. if you are saying that this book is referring to the lamb's book of life. how were there any names in it, before Christ died, the blood had not been applied yet. and you have already said yourself that God couldn't have added anything to His books which the Bible was made of by proir-knowledge so are you recanting that theory now and saying that God actually had names in the lamb's book of life by proir-knowledge. so according to the doctrine of Snail, God can't add to the scriptures by proir-knowledge that would be violating His own rules about adding too, But He can add names to the lamb's book of life, by proir-knowledge before Jesus was crucified.. thats a pretty kool confusing doctrine there snail, But I believe I still stick with trusting Jesus for my trip to heaven .
now I don't know how to ask this without sounding like I am judgeing those folks in exd. 32 but how do we know they were saved. many of the israelites rejected Christ as the Messaih, are these not those very ones that would had been consider the captives that Jesus went to preach to , and freed By his grace. after His victory over death hell and the grave. so again I ask when are our names written into the lamb's book of life and please use scriptures this time instead of your opinion if you can?
they were under the law scripture tells us that the law never saved anyone, so when were their names written in the lamb's book of life before they were saved ? and then when they sinned unrepented their names were blotted out but the ones that repented their names stayed in the lamb's book of life???? scripture when you give your response please???
The surrounding verses only reinforce my points further. Because there in verse 32 is an example of saved man, Moses himself, asking God to remove his name. Moses would not have asked such a thing if he believed that he was always saved and it was impossible for God to cast him away, as an atonement for the people. As a pastor, that is equivalent to you asking God to send you to hell, for the sake of the sins of your church congregation. But you would never say that would you, because unlike Moses, you don't believe you can be "unsaved".
Although God plagued the people, this does not mean those who sin would not have their name removed from the book of the living as God said they would. And if you aint in the book of the living, you in the book of the dead. It's that simple. And how could you or anyone think that being blotted out of the book and not written with the righteous, means they still get to go to heaven?:
Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
These are the ones who followed Moses out of Egypt, God's people. Surely you know that. Even if they weren't saved in the first place, why were their names in the book anyway, only to be taken out?
The term "Thy book:" (Barnes commentary).
The figure is taken from the enrolment of the names of citizens. This is its first occurrence in the Scriptures. See the marginal references. and Isa_4:3; Dan_12:1; Luk_10:20; Phi_4:3; Rev_3:5, etc.
To have the name removed from God's roll would be to no longer be counted as one of God's people. This is always on the basis that they are in God's book to begin with, by virtue of them being Israelites.
So you tell me, what is the difference between one of God's people, an Israelite, having their name blotted out of the book, and a Christian, also one of God's people, having their name taken out of the book as per Revelation? I thought God was no respector of persons and doesn't change. Has God chosen to never do that to Christians despite doing it to Israelites? God said he did not spare the natural branches, so we shouldn't think he would spare wild branches either (Romans 11).
You know that everything written in the old testament is an example for us:
Rom 15:4 and
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased, for they were scattered in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 And these things were our examples, that we should not be lusters after evil, as they also lusted.
There are not two books one for old testament saints and another for Christians. Have you never thought it could be the same book but just given a different name? The lamb's book is otherwise known as the book of life mentioned in Rev 3:5. At judgement, it wont be just christians standing before God, old testament saints will be there too. And their names will be in the same book of life as the Christian's. They were written in at their own time. Presumably, when an Israelite was born and circumcised, they became part of God's family. They were written in the book at an early age.
But whether all the names of every person are in there to begin with, or whether they are added in there when a person first becomes a Christian, makes no difference to what scripture says. That the name will be removed regardless of whether its a Christian or a non-Christian. There is no special privaledges for former Christians.
Salvation (justification) has always been by faith, from Noah to Abraham to Christ to today. The comment re: law of Moses is a moot point. I am sure their names would be in the book of life by virtue of being part of God's people. But no matter what we think how or when names are written in there. The fact is, that names can be taken out!. Even Jesus said , in referring to Chrisitans, that he will not blot out names of the overcomers.
Rev 3:5 The one who overcomes, this one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Implying that those who are not overcomers, will be blotted out.
Jesus also goes onto say:
butIwillconfesshisnamebeforemyFather,andbeforehisangels.
implying that he will not confess a persons name before the Father, if they have denied him either:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Although God plagued the people, this does not mean those who sin would not have their name removed from the book of the living as God said they would. And if you aint in the book of the living, you in the book of the dead. It's that simple. And how could you or anyone think that being blotted out of the book and not written with the righteous, means they still get to go to heaven?:
Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
These are the ones who followed Moses out of Egypt, God's people. Surely you know that. Even if they weren't saved in the first place, why were their names in the book anyway, only to be taken out?
The term "Thy book:" (Barnes commentary).
The figure is taken from the enrolment of the names of citizens. This is its first occurrence in the Scriptures. See the marginal references. and Isa_4:3; Dan_12:1; Luk_10:20; Phi_4:3; Rev_3:5, etc.
To have the name removed from God's roll would be to no longer be counted as one of God's people. This is always on the basis that they are in God's book to begin with, by virtue of them being Israelites.
So you tell me, what is the difference between one of God's people, an Israelite, having their name blotted out of the book, and a Christian, also one of God's people, having their name taken out of the book as per Revelation? I thought God was no respector of persons and doesn't change. Has God chosen to never do that to Christians despite doing it to Israelites? God said he did not spare the natural branches, so we shouldn't think he would spare wild branches either (Romans 11).
You know that everything written in the old testament is an example for us:
Rom 15:4 and
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased, for they were scattered in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 And these things were our examples, that we should not be lusters after evil, as they also lusted.
There are not two books one for old testament saints and another for Christians. Have you never thought it could be the same book but just given a different name? The lamb's book is otherwise known as the book of life mentioned in Rev 3:5. At judgement, it wont be just christians standing before God, old testament saints will be there too. And their names will be in the same book of life as the Christian's. They were written in at their own time. Presumably, when an Israelite was born and circumcised, they became part of God's family. They were written in the book at an early age.
But whether all the names of every person are in there to begin with, or whether they are added in there when a person first becomes a Christian, makes no difference to what scripture says. That the name will be removed regardless of whether its a Christian or a non-Christian. There is no special privaledges for former Christians.
Salvation (justification) has always been by faith, from Noah to Abraham to Christ to today. The comment re: law of Moses is a moot point. I am sure their names would be in the book of life by virtue of being part of God's people. But no matter what we think how or when names are written in there. The fact is, that names can be taken out!. Even Jesus said , in referring to Chrisitans, that he will not blot out names of the overcomers.
Rev 3:5 The one who overcomes, this one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Implying that those who are not overcomers, will be blotted out.
Jesus also goes onto say:
butIwillconfesshisnamebeforemyFather,andbeforehisangels.
implying that he will not confess a persons name before the Father, if they have denied him either:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Chew on this! It comes right from the lips of Jesus! Read it over again and again until it gets into your prefrontal lobe.
John 17:12 'While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
The disciples were so weak, so frail and so full of sin and unbelief that there was no way they could make it unless Jesus Christ kept them. They had no doctrine, no faith, no love, they were fearful and confused, they forsook Christ and didn't even know how to forgive their brother. They all failed, they all backslide after the cross and Jesus had to go after them while seven of them were fishing. The disciples that went fishing didn't use their volition (free will) and ask Christ to come and visit with them, He just showed up. But none of them were lost and there is no record that any of them repented verbally whether you think it is implied or not. We see that they went back to their fishing boats and then we see them following again, just like sheep. They wandered astray, the Shepherd gathered them up and they started grazing again.
John 17:12 'While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
The disciples were so weak, so frail and so full of sin and unbelief that there was no way they could make it unless Jesus Christ kept them. They had no doctrine, no faith, no love, they were fearful and confused, they forsook Christ and didn't even know how to forgive their brother. They all failed, they all backslide after the cross and Jesus had to go after them while seven of them were fishing. The disciples that went fishing didn't use their volition (free will) and ask Christ to come and visit with them, He just showed up. But none of them were lost and there is no record that any of them repented verbally whether you think it is implied or not. We see that they went back to their fishing boats and then we see them following again, just like sheep. They wandered astray, the Shepherd gathered them up and they started grazing again.
Why don't you just admit that you don't believe in a literal interpretation of the warning in Revelations about names being removed from the book of life. Go on, say what is in accordance with your beliefs, instead of skirting the issue. That a Christian can tamper with Revelations and not lose salvation, despite having the name removed from the book of life. Afterall, Time Layahe believes that. Along with other false doctrines such as pre-trib rapture. You all believe in those heresies too don't you? It's all becoming clearer whose teachings you follow. Tim Layahe.
I now see why you OSAS believers also believe in a pre-trib rapture, because you follow modern day teacher like Tim Layahe who believes in all those things, including giving us the left behind series etc, instead of scripture alone to get your doctrine. This false teaching has spread throughout most denominations in the modern day church. But both of these beliefs, OSAS, and pre-trib rapture, would not be found in Christianity before these last days false teachers and prophets came on the scene.
http://libertytothecaptives.net/tim_lahaye_false_teaching_bookofthisprophecy.html
Tim LaHaye is actually teaching,
The Bible answer to that is:
God's Word means what it says. Tim LaHaye says we cannot lose our salvation if we take away from the words of this prophecy, but the Bible says we can! The church is at a crossroads. We must continue in Jesus' word and not believe anyone who goes against the clear warnings of scripture.
http://libertytothecaptives.net/tim_lahaye_false_teaching_bookofthisprophecy.html
The scripture teaches that if you are not found in the book of life you will be cast into the lake of fire. The Holy Bible also warns that there is a deed you can do to have your part (your name!) taken out of the book of life. That deed is this: "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life."
Tim LaHaye is actually teaching,
"Don't worry, the only share you have in the book of life is your name, so don't worry if it gets blotted out. You will still go to heaven."
If God takes your part (your name) out of the book of life, you will be cast into the lake of fire.
... THAT THE SCRIPTURES MIGHT BE FULFILLED... and (Mt 7:22,23)
'Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.'
Judas was never given by the Father to be kept by the Son. He was given as the son of perdition (vessel of destruction) that was to fulfill the scriptures in (Ps 41:9, Jn 13:18). I hope that you can grasp the written word.
'Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.'
Judas was never given by the Father to be kept by the Son. He was given as the son of perdition (vessel of destruction) that was to fulfill the scriptures in (Ps 41:9, Jn 13:18). I hope that you can grasp the written word.
I grasp this very well. The scripture you quoted says Judas was his best friend, the one Christ trusted most:
Psa 41:9 Even my best friend, the one I trusted most, the one who shared my food, has turned against me.
It was not that Judas was always a really bad evil person intent on betraying Christ from the beginning. No, as it says in both the scriptures you quoted, Judas turned against Christ. So here you have a loyal friend of Christ, following him from the beginning, sticking with Christ through it all, even when many other disciples left Christ, until the very end when he betrayed him.
Sorry to say, but that proves my stance more than yours. About a loyal faithful Christian, one day turning away, and being lost. You say it's impossible, but the case of Judas about a good friend of Christ turning against him, does not agree well with your view about "once a friend, always a friend" (to put it another way).
So back onto topic of Revelation.
What would you say to a Christian who wants to and actually does tamper with Revelations? Is their name taken from the book of life and if so , what is the consequence of that?
Psa 41:9 Even my best friend, the one I trusted most, the one who shared my food, has turned against me.
It was not that Judas was always a really bad evil person intent on betraying Christ from the beginning. No, as it says in both the scriptures you quoted, Judas turned against Christ. So here you have a loyal friend of Christ, following him from the beginning, sticking with Christ through it all, even when many other disciples left Christ, until the very end when he betrayed him.
Sorry to say, but that proves my stance more than yours. About a loyal faithful Christian, one day turning away, and being lost. You say it's impossible, but the case of Judas about a good friend of Christ turning against him, does not agree well with your view about "once a friend, always a friend" (to put it another way).
So back onto topic of Revelation.
What would you say to a Christian who wants to and actually does tamper with Revelations? Is their name taken from the book of life and if so , what is the consequence of that?
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MahoganySnail.
I want to hear your comments on (John 17:12). I'll quote it for you again.
John 17:12 'While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus Christ was the one that did the keeping, didn't He? He kept them eternally secure so that none of them were lost, didn't He? Didn't Jesus come to seek and save them that are lost (Luke 19:10)? The Father has given to the Son every sinner that believes. The Son is not with us as He was with the disciples, so whose job is it to keep us who have believed? If it took Christ to keep the disciples from being lost, who is present with us today that keeps us from being lost? Do we keep ourselves or does the Holy Spirit do that through the power of God's word?
If we have the power to keep ourselves then what need do we have of Christ or the Holy Spirit? If we can keep ourselves then what need do we have of His salvation? Why not proclaim and provide our own salvation and be kept by our own power through our free volition. If we can choose not to sin with our volition then we have it made. There would be no need for God's grace, no need for humility, no need for faith in God's word and we could practice and grow in our own sanctification process and live in our own progressive justification and we could do all this without having to trust God because we could lean and trust in our own understanding and in the power and might of our 'free will'. And with all of that if we fail to keep ourselves and end up in hell, we have no one to blame but ourselves because we didn't keep it.
I want to hear your comments on (John 17:12). I'll quote it for you again.
John 17:12 'While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus Christ was the one that did the keeping, didn't He? He kept them eternally secure so that none of them were lost, didn't He? Didn't Jesus come to seek and save them that are lost (Luke 19:10)? The Father has given to the Son every sinner that believes. The Son is not with us as He was with the disciples, so whose job is it to keep us who have believed? If it took Christ to keep the disciples from being lost, who is present with us today that keeps us from being lost? Do we keep ourselves or does the Holy Spirit do that through the power of God's word?
If we have the power to keep ourselves then what need do we have of Christ or the Holy Spirit? If we can keep ourselves then what need do we have of His salvation? Why not proclaim and provide our own salvation and be kept by our own power through our free volition. If we can choose not to sin with our volition then we have it made. There would be no need for God's grace, no need for humility, no need for faith in God's word and we could practice and grow in our own sanctification process and live in our own progressive justification and we could do all this without having to trust God because we could lean and trust in our own understanding and in the power and might of our 'free will'. And with all of that if we fail to keep ourselves and end up in hell, we have no one to blame but ourselves because we didn't keep it.
Sinnner,
You seem to be emboldened against me, but can you explain the keeping power of our Lord Jesus Christ in (John 17:12)? Can you explain the source and authority of that power that kept the disciples from being lost? Every believer can read the plain truth of that one verse alone and begin to know the beauty and faithfulness of God's grace toward sinners that have been called. Those that the Father has given to the Son have been bought with a price and they belong to the Lamb, whose blood was shed. They were written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world, because the Lamb was slain way back then in the eternal mind and reality of the Father (Rev 13:8) and were the elect chosen by grace from the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-12). Judas was never in the Lamb's book of life or in the mind of the Father, therefore He never knew him. Judas may have been a friend to the Son of man but not a friend of God. He went to his own place because he had his own idea of salvation for the Jews that included him. But he was wrong about grace and truth just as you are. The guilt of betraying the Son of God was so great that he hanged himself. He never understood grace because he never believed upon the Son. 'He that believeth on the Son has everlasting life and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him' (John 3:36).
You seem to be emboldened against me, but can you explain the keeping power of our Lord Jesus Christ in (John 17:12)? Can you explain the source and authority of that power that kept the disciples from being lost? Every believer can read the plain truth of that one verse alone and begin to know the beauty and faithfulness of God's grace toward sinners that have been called. Those that the Father has given to the Son have been bought with a price and they belong to the Lamb, whose blood was shed. They were written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world, because the Lamb was slain way back then in the eternal mind and reality of the Father (Rev 13:8) and were the elect chosen by grace from the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-12). Judas was never in the Lamb's book of life or in the mind of the Father, therefore He never knew him. Judas may have been a friend to the Son of man but not a friend of God. He went to his own place because he had his own idea of salvation for the Jews that included him. But he was wrong about grace and truth just as you are. The guilt of betraying the Son of God was so great that he hanged himself. He never understood grace because he never believed upon the Son. 'He that believeth on the Son has everlasting life and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him' (John 3:36).
Thaddeus are you telling me that 1 of Jesus's 12 disciples who followed him, had the Spirit, preached the Gospel, cast out devils, healed the sick, was an unsaved person?
Strange doctrine indeed.
That is contradictary, whoever followed Christ, including Judas, was saved as long as they followed him. Judas obviously believed in him for a time.
It was only after he turned back, that he lost what he had.
Strange doctrine indeed.
That is contradictary, whoever followed Christ, including Judas, was saved as long as they followed him. Judas obviously believed in him for a time.
It was only after he turned back, that he lost what he had.
Before I discuss any more topics such as Judas, I would like the OSAS believers to answer the question below please. Then we can know whether you truly take the warning in Revelation as seriously as you claim to.
What would you say to a Christian who wants to and actually does tamper with Revelations? Is their name taken from the book of life and if so , what is the consequence of that?
What would you say to a Christian who wants to and actually does tamper with Revelations? Is their name taken from the book of life and if so , what is the consequence of that?
S
Im not a preacher or anything and im not sure what i believe in eternal security and im trying to figure that out but what i think is that if your a Christian the Holy Spirit probably wont let you write anything Wrong about scripture and if you do and change it for a wrong purpose to lead people away from God Then they probably arent Christian and maybe say they are
what is so strange about it you think everyone that ever preached was of God do you not know these scriptures 2co 11:13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.2co 11:14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.2co 11:15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
or what about these scriptures
Mt 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Mt 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mt 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
these people were not saved but they were doing great works in His name. But Jesus said here I NEVER KNEW YOU! so what is so strange about this doctrine Now.
no, you have been mislead in this area as well as other areas of scriptures, not a contradiction with the Word only with the way you have been taught to believe !!!!! if judas hung himself and he being the son of perdiction went to his place where do you think that place was
or what about these scriptures
Mt 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Mt 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mt 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
these people were not saved but they were doing great works in His name. But Jesus said here I NEVER KNEW YOU! so what is so strange about this doctrine Now.
no, you have been mislead in this area as well as other areas of scriptures, not a contradiction with the Word only with the way you have been taught to believe !!!!! if judas hung himself and he being the son of perdiction went to his place where do you think that place was
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