REVELATION 4-7 ONE RAPTURE OR TWO RAPTURES

Absolutely · Oct 18, 2018

Note that God put geneologies into 3 groups,
Mat 1;17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Obvious dispensations showing God thinks in dispensations ( brakets of time)

BaptistBibleBeliever · Oct 18, 2018

Absolutely said:

You know, God must be really, really smart to be able to plan things out in such a way that even dumb people like us can understand it. Gee, I wonder why He would tell us to 'rightly divide the word of truth' when He didn't even mean it at all. Some of these peeps are trying to make us think that God is dumber they they are. That's just not possible.

dcontroversal · Oct 18, 2018

BaptistBibleBeliever said:

I am still trying to figure out how the end came and went in 70 A.D. and yet here we are chugging along almost 2000 years later....no reign of Christ on the throne of David, the Jews still despised and hated world wide, sin still rampant, same ole dying earth, no new heaven and earth, etc.......and they call us worse or similar to the Pharisees......at least we can read, judge context and know that the END did not come in 70 A.D.

BaptistBibleBeliever · Oct 18, 2018

Their preterism is all manufactured from Rome . . . I guess they don't like the literal interpretation of Revelation because that just might mean that their boy--the Pope--is the false prophet. It'd be pretty hard to let the priests go ahead and teach that.

Locutus · Oct 18, 2018

[QUOTE="Absolutely, post: 3737699, member: 272916"] I dont think peter was addressing tribes[/QUOTE]

Yes he was and so was James:

(1 Pet 1:1 KJV) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

scattered - Greek diaspora = term for the scattered tribes of Israel.

(James 1:1 KJV) James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James calls them the first fruits and they ARE the first fruits written in John's revelation:

(James 1:18 KJV) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

(Rev 14:4 KJV) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Deade · Oct 18, 2018

Absolutely said:

The 144,000 are not going to heaven. They were preserved alive before the seventh seal to protect them as live human beings to start over in the Promised Land. Revelation's symbolic language need to be considered.

I see Rev. 4, 5 as the same event here: 1 Thess. 4:16, 17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

It doesn't say we will stay in the air or heaven. When Christ comes back the next time, He will stay. He will circle the globe for the rapture then set His feet on the Mount of Olives. Fulfilling this prophecy: Acts 1:10, 11 "And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

The church will be on earth during the tribulation. Many of the saints will be put to death during this time (see Rev. 2:10 & 13:7). Nobody is going to heaven. Heaven is coming to earth. There are only two resurrections. The first at Christ's coming and the second after the 1000 years (Rev. 20:5).

You are mistaken about angels gathering Jews for God supernaturally. God is doing this Himself starting with the 144,000 from every tribe (not just Jews of Judah). He is saving alive flesh and blood humans to repopulate the Promised Land for the start of the millennium.

There is one event where the dead in Christ will rise to meet the Lord, then we which are alive will be transformed with them. Then the Lord will set foot down at the Mt. of Olives (Acts 1:11). Then the great earthquake (Zech. 14:4).

Locutus · Oct 18, 2018

Here's an epic fail with futurist "theologies" John states they have been redeemed not will be:

Rev 14:4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

dcontroversal · Oct 18, 2018

Locutus said:

Not all "futurists".......and as a matter of fact, if ONE takes ALL the characteristics of the 144,000 found in Revelation and APPLIES them along with a prophecy FULFILLED when Christ was a child....there is a GROUP from HISTORY that fits..................

BaptistBibleBeliever · Oct 18, 2018

Locutus said:

It wasn't 'futurist' for John . . . he was there. He was watching the events as they were happening. They were futurist, however, when John went back to Patmos and was writing it all down.

pottersclay · Oct 18, 2018

Untill you understand rev 12 chapter you will not understand rev.

BaptistBibleBeliever · Oct 18, 2018

pottersclay said:

It might help if we knew who you are addressing.

Why not just explain chapter 12 to us and we'll tell you if we agree or not.

pottersclay · Oct 18, 2018

dcontroversal said:

D. I respect you position on end times we agree to disagree I would like it if that could be an example for the rest of saints here.

Question. ... Your view point.....if we the saints accept the Lord by faith...walk by faith... Have been purchased and redeemed, have been crucified, buried, and risen with Christ according to what the scriptures say. Are not appointed to wrath , we are called son's and daughters of the most high, born again, not of flesh but of spirit, please explain why we would suffer the tribulation, which is God's wrath upon a unbelieving people.
The tribulation is God giving unrepented man the God that he wants. The God of this world. Showing what he would of been saved from had only he repented. (In the most simplistic form).
Why would we suffer God's wrath when we were promised to be saved?
Abraham asked God if he would judge the righteous with the wicked.....lot and his family were saved..... God's answer was no.
In the days of Noah...Jesus refers to this....the fallen angles had layed with human women....(short version) possible causing mutations in the gene structure causing evil to run wild. But the Lord found grace in Noah. Is this because he and his family was not infected yet.
In other words tainted blood???
Some may laugh at that out look but a mature saint knows that a bloodline was important to the Lord. That is why geneology is found in the new and old testament.
Again Noah and his family were saved.....shut in....rising above the judgement.
Not trying to change your post tribulation view but interested in your answers.
Paul says I show you a mystery...imo....I don't think Paul knew all of the in and outs or possibly he was not to speak in depth about it.
But he could not pass up his convictions of his findings.
Look closely at the conversation between the angel and lot.

Thanks d

Hevosmies · Oct 18, 2018

Do dispies deny that the kingdom came on pentecost?

I hope not, or its even worse than I thought. Cause Bible teaches not only are christians priests in the kingdom but that they have been transferred from darkness to God's kingdom.
Not only that but Jesus is ruling present tense according to Daniel's vision and Peter confirms this in Acts.
Not only that but Jesus said when He cast out devils that the kingdom of God has come to you.

dcontroversal · Oct 18, 2018

pottersclay said:

Tribulation and wrath are NOT the same thing....two different words, two different applications and NO where is there an indication that the great tribulation can be tied to either the flood and or Sodom other than the characteristics of man and his state of sin.......My view is that is is wrong to conflate the two together.....and to compare the flood to the great tribulation misses the mark and or the application of tribulation.....one is used to purify the other is used to destroy.......Do this......if you want to know WHY I believe what I believe go read my book on the 2nd Coming in the blog section...I was raised believing in the imminent return, believed it, stood for it dogmatically UNTIL I had to study through the bible twice a year in Seminary.....the thing that got me to studying it intently was what one of my teachers said...HE said he can prove ALL three views and did not want to spend the time teaching it...the more I studied the more that did not jive and or make sense when viewed through the imminent return glasses. It will take a few hours or so to read my book which is 212 pages, 26 chapters....go read it over the next week or so and then you will know why I stand where I stand and feel free to IM behind the scenes to question, ask or whatever......take the time and scrutinize all you want bro.....please do....it fully explains my view scripturally

BaptistBibleBeliever · Oct 18, 2018

Hevosmies said:

The church was empowered on Pentecost, certainly not the beginning of the millennial kingdom. As to the kingdom of God, yes, Blood-washed believers belong to that but it is NOT the 1,000 year personal reign of Jesus Christ upon the throne of David in Jerusalem.

When Jesus told the crowd that the kingdom had come to you . . . He was standing right in front of them as their offered Messiah--but they refused to accept Him and turned Him over to Herod to be crucified.

garee · Oct 18, 2018

BaptistBibleBeliever said:

The key to understanding the new order is not so much which year was the book of Revelation inspired. The signified language in the book of revelation is in respect to the last days. The key is the veil. When it was rent the time of reformation had it beginning .The previous time period the Jews were used in a parable as a shadow had come. When the veil was rent the last days as a unknow amount of time signified by the metaphor thousand years began. Having brick walls without the veil had no meaning . There remains a Western Wall, “Wailing Wall” that is used as a idol image to the unbelieving Jew (no faith)

garee · Oct 18, 2018

Well, people, the temple isn't built yet but it is going to be built. That tells me something is coming, and that is the 'abomination of desolation' of that temple spoken of in Daniel. So all that was said 800 years ago is coming. It's closer than it ever was. Therefore, the deceivableness, the delusion, is even more. Get you to think you are doing good, so everythings is okay. Well, it's okay for awhile. At the Judgement Seat of Christ it will be required of you of what sort you did, what was your motive behind what you did. And I'm telling you what--if it is contrary to this--you got problems. And He deals with us now, before we even get there. Everyone of us knows. Everyone of us that is saved knows that that is true. We got ups and downs, and when we go down guess who's controlling our brain? It ain't God. When He comes in, He takes charge. The Holy Spirit gives us peace. Boom!

From my experiences many misuse the idea of the "holy place" Therefore making it about the things seen(the temporal) and not the unseen glory of God.(the eternal). We walk by faith and not by sight. Find the proper holy place find the "abomination of desolation"'

The 'abomination of desolation' of that temple spoken of in Daniel is man( seen) as the things of men standing in the unseen place of God. (the place of faith) Inspired earthly of the devil as a stand in, for Peter standing in "Holy place of God" as the "things of men" seen.

Peter was used to show that role. He was forgiven of His blasphemy .Today because the Son of man is not longer here or needed the one time demonstration of the unseen Holy Spirit blasphemy will not be forgiven as it was for Peter the serial denier.

Peter standing in the holy place one example of the abomination of desolation'. Again he was forgiven of his blasphemy

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the "things that be" of God, but "those" that be of men.Mathew 16:22-23

if that does not define blasphemy (standing in the holy place) I do not know what could.

tanakh · Oct 19, 2018

The Abomination of Desolation mentioned in Daniel happened twice before and from Daniels viewpoint both instances happened in his future. The first under Antiochus and the second under Titus. In Daniel Nebuchadnezzar set up statue for the people to worship on the plain of Dura and he later went mad and became a beast eating grass.

Jesus mentions Daniel in relation to the abomination which happened in 70AD when the Temple and City became desolate
this is recorded in Matthew. In Luke the term Abomination of Desolation is replaced by the description of Jerusalem being surrounded by Armies. It is not just the Temple that was holy to God but the whole city. There doesn't need to be a Temple

garee · Oct 19, 2018

My view is that it is wrong to separate that which God calls together. We should I believe compare the spiritual understanding to the spiritual (faith to faith) if we are to mix faith as instructed to in Hebrew 4... Comparing the flood to the great tribulation hits the mark. Both are indicating its the last day the end of time. No more today (12 hours of darkness 12 hours of light)

I would say the great tribulation is the end of the world, death and hell cast into the lake of fire..... its corrupted substance goes up in smoke never to rise to new spirit life .Its the last day as we know what today is (day and night) There will be no night in the incorruptible new heavens and earth. Its the end of time the two temporal time keepers (Sun and Moon)are no longer needed.

I think we can see the law of faith only worked or profited those who "mixed faith" (believed God not seen) in respect to what was seen and heard . The one that was walking by sight (no faith) did not enter the rest of God. Their hearts remained hard, not mixing faith (believing God).

The Holy Spirit in Job 23 informs us it is God who is of one mind and always does what ever his soul desires as our living God who does work to soften our hearts as he perform that which he appoints to us . This which is written in Philippians 2 I believe adds to that understanding that speaks to those given the ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.. It I believe is called "mixing with faith" with a faith representing a labor of God love also called a work of faith .(His not of ourselves) By it we can hear God without his faith no man could understand the God not seen and therefore no way to seek afater Him

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.Hebrews 4:2-7

The glory of God will be the light.

Just as it was for the end of the whole world with the exception of the spiritual seed(singular Christ) of faith that must be passed down to satisfy the end of the genealogy of Christ as the generation of Christ the new generation as his eternal bride and in that way we are receiving the end of our new faith that in effect promises the work of Christ. Noah's family was used to represent the end tribulation .

2For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.Hebrews 4:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Do all things without murmurings and disputings: Philipians 2:12-14

The last part..."Do all things without murmurings and disputing". It reminded of my Mom a picture of grace who had eleven of us . When we would get out of hand she would say fight nice. and it seemed to work. Many other families I have known are saying they were lucky to make it out alive. Its easy or should be easy to see we do not wrestles against flesh and blood easy to foget

Locutus · Oct 19, 2018

(Luke 21:20 KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

(Luke 21:21 KJV) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

(Mat 24:15 KJV) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

(Mat 24:16 KJV) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Same event is spoken in both Matthew and Luke - we all know that Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in the war of 66-70 AD.

Therefore the "abomination of desolation" happened in the 1st century AD.

No need to look for the bogey man in the daily news buliding another temple based on dirt.

REVELATION 4-7 ONE RAPTURE OR TWO RAPTURES

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