REVELATION 4-7 ONE RAPTURE OR TWO RAPTURES

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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
23,256
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#61
Well, technically two.........counting when Christ was resurrected and ascended.....

but for us there will be ONLY ONE.

When that Eastern sky splits, and the trump sounds, and Christ descends to receive His Church.......

THAT WILL BE IT!

(my beliefs............no, no, don't even try to convince me otherwise.......believe whatever stuff you wish, cuz when the time comes...........I WON'T BE HERE)
dancing-elephant-animation.gif
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
7,109
398
83
#62
The Abomination of Desolation mentioned in Daniel happened twice before and from Daniels viewpoint both instances happened in his future. The first under Antiochus and the second under Titus. In Daniel Nebuchadnezzar set up statue for the people to worship on the plain of Dura and he later went mad and became a beast eating grass.

Jesus mentions Daniel in relation to the abomination which happened in 70AD when the Temple and City became desolate
this is recorded in Matthew. In Luke the term Abomination of Desolation is replaced by the description of Jerusalem being surrounded by Armies. It is not just the Temple that was holy to God but the whole city. There doesn't need to be a Temple
I would suggest God does not live in temples made with human hands as if his kingdom was of the temporal things of this world seen and not the eternal things of god not seen

Its my point . What is the Holy place set aside or reserved for God not seen? what it is must be discovered before we can understand what it can perform. The church a representative glory made up of many lively stones that makes up the spiritual house of God the church. 9getting weaker and weaker)The holy place is not seen by the human eye. If we make the temple as that seen, the holy place, then I think we are turning things upside down. Peter reckoned as the things of men is shown as a abomination of desecration standing in the unseen Holy place of God "called faith" . Peter was forgiven for his blasphemy

Isaiah 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

He according to his unseen glory is our hiding place. At the consummation on the last day in the twinkling of the eye when the bride of Christ receives her new incorruptible body.... then the veil will be lifted and the true glory of God will be the light..no more darkness
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
23,256
1,209
113
#63
He according to his unseen glory is our hiding place. At the consummation on the last day in the twinkling of the eye when the bride of Christ receives her new incorruptible body.... then the veil will be lifted and the true glory of God will be the light..no more darkness

I like that..........
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
903
292
63
#64
The Abomination of Desolation mentioned in Daniel happened twice before and from Daniels viewpoint both instances happened in his future. The first under Antiochus and the second under Titus. In Daniel Nebuchadnezzar set up statue for the people to worship on the plain of Dura and he later went mad and became a beast eating grass.

Jesus mentions Daniel in relation to the abomination which happened in 70AD when the Temple and City became desolate
this is recorded in Matthew. In Luke the term Abomination of Desolation is replaced by the description of Jerusalem being surrounded by Armies. It is not just the Temple that was holy to God but the whole city. There doesn't need to be a Temple
Oy vey! Christianity today is so focused on a secular country in the middle-east, with mostly secular, atheist, antichrist (deny Jesus is the son of God) people!

What caused this? I blame the TV preachers. The Sid Roth shows and all of that.
 

Absolutely

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
351
52
28
#65
[QUOTE="Absolutely, post: 3737699, member: 272916"] I dont think peter was addressing tribes
Yes he was and so was James:

(1 Pet 1:1 KJV) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

scattered - Greek diaspora = term for the scattered tribes of Israel.

(James 1:1 KJV) James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James calls them the first fruits and they ARE the first fruits written in John's revelation:

(James 1:18 KJV) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

(Rev 14:4 KJV) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.[/QUOTE]
No,you have not made a case for peter writing SOLELY to tribes.
He was writing to christian brothers.
If you look it up in the greek,it is clear.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
3,582
297
83
71
#66
Oy vey! Christianity today is so focused on a secular country in the middle-east, with mostly secular, atheist, antichrist (deny Jesus is the son of God) people!

What caused this? I blame the TV preachers. The Sid Roth shows and all of that.
The blame lies back in the 19th Century with the likes of John Darby and Cyrus Schofield. Modern Day preachers and their followers are
being deluded by them mainly without knowing it. I am writing as one who once swallowed it all thanks to Hal Lindsey
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
6,636
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#67
Oy vey! Christianity today is so focused on a secular country in the middle-east, with mostly secular, atheist, antichrist (deny Jesus is the son of God) people!
While there is no question that modern Israel is primarily secular, that does not in way minimize the important of THE LAND OF ISRAEL and JERUSALEM. We also need to be careful that Christians do not become Jew-haters just because the Jews in general reject Christ. No doubt many will welcome the Antichrist as their Messiah, and pay for it.

But regardless of what we see today, everything will change AFTER the second coming of Christ. The Bible is chock full of prophecies regarding redeemed and restored Israel, and the eternal Kingdom of God on earth, when Christ is King over Israel and King of kings and Lord of lords over the nations of the earth.

Also, it is high time that Christians stopped throwing mud at Darby, Scofield, Lindsey, and all other Dispensationalists (including Chafer, Walvoord, Ryrie, etc.) All they have tried to do is understand the Bible in its plain literal sense, rather that allegorize, spiritualize, or fantasize the Scriptures.

Did Darby (19th century) invent the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture? Even if Darby had never existed, we would have the words of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself BEFORE His crucifixion (30 AD):

JOHN 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,047
949
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Illinois
#68
You are here: Home / End Time Bible Prophecy / What Did Ancient Church Fathers Believe About The Rapture?
WHAT DID ANCIENT CHURCH FATHERS BELIEVE ABOUT THE RAPTURE?
August 2, 2013 By Beginning and End


“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” – 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
What did the first century church fathers believe about the Rapture? Were they pre-tribulation or post-tribulation? What did the disciples of the Apostles of Jesus Christ teach about the Rapture?
This article will present the writings of the early church fathers – from those who learned under the disciples of Jesus Christ, to the church leaders of the second and third centuries, on the Rapture – the supernatural removal of all Bible-believing Christians from Earth to enter Heaven. While the writings of the first, second and third century Christian church fathers are not Scripture and not on par with the Bible in any way, it is informative to see how the early church leaders interpreted Scripture in addition to what the learned directly from those closest to The Lord Jesus Christ. And definitively, the few writings still in existence on the end times, put the timing of the Rapture before the Great Tribulation. This article will also serve to dispel some of the common misconceptions about Rapture theology as being something invented in the 19th century by a man named John Darby.
“John Darby Invented The Pre-Tribulation Rapture”

John Darby has been incorrectly credited with “inventing” the Rapture.
All over the internet there are many articles and videos that claim that the Rapture doctrine was “invented” in 1830 by a man named John Darby. The following is an excerpt that summarizes this theory:
The Rapture doctrine, which was the invention of the Plymouth Brethrenled by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), has today been adopted by most Baptist, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, and a variety of other fundamentalist sects. The idea that Jesus Christ will return for His true Church just before the beginning of the Great Tribulation in a secret gathering or “catching away” was an important part of Darby’s teaching. The movement in which this teaching began originated in small groups in England and Ireland about 1828 and by 1831 was part of the official teaching of the Plymouth Brethren. By 1860 the “rapture” had made its way to the United States.
Today, prophecy pundits and “end-time” revivalists preach the Rapture as if it were established dogma from the time of Christ until the present. The truth is that the first historical reference to the Rapture doctrine comes from the Plymouth Brethren. Not only is the Rapture not found in the teachings of the Church, but even “end-time” heretics throughout the centuries never dreamed of proposing such a novel idea. For example, the 4th century Montanists, who preached both pre-millennialism and that they knew when Christ would return, never ventured so far as to create another 2nd coming of the Lord in a secret rapture.

In all the writings of the Scriptures, the Early Fathers, and the Ecumenical Councils, there is no mention of two 2nd comings of Christ.” (source) [Emphasis added].​

In short, the objection is that rather than being a real part of the Bible, the entire idea of a pre-Great Tribulational Rapture was just an invention by Darby and “not even heretics” ever used it. This is very strong language, but is it true? Were there no ancient Christian writings about the church being Raptured before Great Tribulation? An examination of early church writings shows that this charge is false and there were some church fathers who indeed wrote about the Rapture.
Irenaeus
Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just.
On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:
“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”​
continued at link . . .
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
903
292
63
#69
While there is no question that modern Israel is primarily secular, that does not in way minimize the important of THE LAND OF ISRAEL and JERUSALEM. We also need to be careful that Christians do not become Jew-haters just because the Jews in general reject Christ. No doubt many will welcome the Antichrist as their Messiah, and pay for it.

But regardless of what we see today, everything will change AFTER the second coming of Christ. The Bible is chock full of prophecies regarding redeemed and restored Israel, and the eternal Kingdom of God on earth, when Christ is King over Israel and King of kings and Lord of lords over the nations of the earth.

Also, it is high time that Christians stopped throwing mud at Darby, Scofield, Lindsey, and all other Dispensationalists (including Chafer, Walvoord, Ryrie, etc.) All they have tried to do is understand the Bible in its plain literal sense, rather that allegorize, spiritualize, or fantasize the Scriptures.

Did Darby (19th century) invent the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture? Even if Darby had never existed, we would have the words of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself BEFORE His crucifixion (30 AD):

JOHN 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Thanks brother Nehemiah, I always enjoy your posts.

They were literal when they wanted to be. But in many instances they werent.
In the verses that teach there is only one people of God, the Church, made up of both jew and gentile, the literalism isnt present, but rather its spiritualized into: "Well yeah thats now, but after the rapture, we go back to Israel" even though there is NO VERSE that says the church "ends" and we return to Israel, but there is scripture that its forever. There is also scriptures from the OT ABOUT Israel, that are applied to the CHURCH. Proving one people of God! I dare anyone to prove me wrong there. Romans 9:25 Paul is quoting from Hosea, who is speaking about Israel, yet PAUL applies it to the CHURCH, gentile church.

In the book of Revelation literalism is very present, except for the churches, which are spiritualized into eras within church history, NO BASIS in the text for that.
I believe this is done to make Revelation 3:10 into a rapture proof-text, when what LITERALLY this is teaching is that the church of Philadelphia, that literal church to whom the letter was sent during the 1st/2nd century, would be spared from tribulation.
Imagine being in the church of Philadelphia, getting some mail from John, and nothing in it is for you, but to some church era centuries from now.

Same goes for many other things, but I believe they were sincere in their attempts, nonetheless. I dont believe Darby invented the pre-trib rapture, many puritans had pontificated on it before that. Pseudo-Ephraim is from the 400s and it mentions a pre-tribulation rapture (This is the earliest mention of it). That argument that Darby invented the rapture is so played out, and people need to stop using it, its not TRUE. There is a biblical case to be deduced for the pre-trib rapture. I also believe there are MANY MANY good dispensational preachers, Chuck Missler being one I enjoy.

Also im not a jew-hater (Bro Nehemiah I KNOW you didnt accuse me of this), but this has been brought up like twice now, by different people so I think this would be a good place to state I have JEWISH ANCESTRY, and I had family in the holocaust. Im not anti-jew, im anti-JUDAISM, there is a difference! I have family deep into judaizing to this day!
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
903
292
63
#70
You are here: Home / End Time Bible Prophecy / What Did Ancient Church Fathers Believe About The Rapture?
WHAT DID ANCIENT CHURCH FATHERS BELIEVE ABOUT THE RAPTURE?
August 2, 2013 By Beginning and End


“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” – 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
What did the first century church fathers believe about the Rapture? Were they pre-tribulation or post-tribulation? What did the disciples of the Apostles of Jesus Christ teach about the Rapture?
This article will present the writings of the early church fathers – from those who learned under the disciples of Jesus Christ, to the church leaders of the second and third centuries, on the Rapture – the supernatural removal of all Bible-believing Christians from Earth to enter Heaven. While the writings of the first, second and third century Christian church fathers are not Scripture and not on par with the Bible in any way, it is informative to see how the early church leaders interpreted Scripture in addition to what the learned directly from those closest to The Lord Jesus Christ. And definitively, the few writings still in existence on the end times, put the timing of the Rapture before the Great Tribulation. This article will also serve to dispel some of the common misconceptions about Rapture theology as being something invented in the 19th century by a man named John Darby.
“John Darby Invented The Pre-Tribulation Rapture”

John Darby has been incorrectly credited with “inventing” the Rapture.
All over the internet there are many articles and videos that claim that the Rapture doctrine was “invented” in 1830 by a man named John Darby. The following is an excerpt that summarizes this theory:
The Rapture doctrine, which was the invention of the Plymouth Brethrenled by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), has today been adopted by most Baptist, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, and a variety of other fundamentalist sects. The idea that Jesus Christ will return for His true Church just before the beginning of the Great Tribulation in a secret gathering or “catching away” was an important part of Darby’s teaching. The movement in which this teaching began originated in small groups in England and Ireland about 1828 and by 1831 was part of the official teaching of the Plymouth Brethren. By 1860 the “rapture” had made its way to the United States.
Today, prophecy pundits and “end-time” revivalists preach the Rapture as if it were established dogma from the time of Christ until the present. The truth is that the first historical reference to the Rapture doctrine comes from the Plymouth Brethren. Not only is the Rapture not found in the teachings of the Church, but even “end-time” heretics throughout the centuries never dreamed of proposing such a novel idea. For example, the 4th century Montanists, who preached both pre-millennialism and that they knew when Christ would return, never ventured so far as to create another 2nd coming of the Lord in a secret rapture.
In all the writings of the Scriptures, the Early Fathers, and the Ecumenical Councils, there is no mention of two 2nd comings of Christ.” (source) [Emphasis added].​

In short, the objection is that rather than being a real part of the Bible, the entire idea of a pre-Great Tribulational Rapture was just an invention by Darby and “not even heretics” ever used it. This is very strong language, but is it true? Were there no ancient Christian writings about the church being Raptured before Great Tribulation? An examination of early church writings shows that this charge is false and there were some church fathers who indeed wrote about the Rapture.
Irenaeus
Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just.
On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:
“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”​
continued at link . . .
Irenaeus was actually post-trib btw.

"And they [the ten kings] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord" [Against Heresies 5.26.1].

Many quotes on that from Irenaeus, he believed the church was present during the antichrist reign. No early church father from the first 4centuries was pre-trib. Not a single one.
The same thing in the Didache, which has a clear order of events.
Fake news!
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,047
949
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Illinois
#71
Irenaeus was actually post-trib btw.

"And they [the ten kings] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord" [Against Heresies 5.26.1].

Many quotes on that from Irenaeus, he believed the church was present during the antichrist reign. No early church father from the first 4centuries was pre-trib. Not a single one.
The same thing in the Didache, which has a clear order of events.
Fake news!
The article continues concerning Irenaeus . . .

Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. Note his use of the term “caught up” which is Rapture terminology as that is the meaning of harpazo, the term for “caught up” in the King James Bible describing the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4. He then quotes Matthew 24:21 where The Lord Jesus Christ says: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” And it is during this time that those who convert to Christianity during the final years will receive the incorruptible crown mentioned by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:25. In Irenaeus’ belief, the Rapture took place prior to the end times Great Tribulation.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,047
949
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Illinois
#72
Also people should realize that there are New Testament saints and Tribulation saints. Two different groups of people. Try not to use one to describe the other, m'kay?

But then, that is somewhat laid out in the OP.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
6,636
1,041
113
#73
In the verses that teach there is only one people of God, the Church, made up of both jew and gentile, the literalism isnt present, but rather its spiritualized into: "Well yeah thats now, but after the rapture, we go back to Israel" even though there is NO VERSE that says the church "ends" and we return to Israel, but there is scripture that its forever.
To respond to this:

1. The Church is both literally and spiritually redeemed Jews and Gentiles in ONE BODY.
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor 12:12,13)

2. There will be a finite number of Gentiles added to the Church:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Rom 11:25) [Church completed]

3. After that God will redeem and restore Israel with a believing remnant (Rom 11):
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

A careful study of OT prophecies will confirm what is stated here.

 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
903
292
63
#74
The article continues concerning Irenaeus . . .

Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. Note his use of the term “caught up” which is Rapture terminology as that is the meaning of harpazo, the term for “caught up” in the King James Bible describing the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4. He then quotes Matthew 24:21 where The Lord Jesus Christ says: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” And it is during this time that those who convert to Christianity during the final years will receive the incorruptible crown mentioned by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:25. In Irenaeus’ belief, the Rapture took place prior to the end times Great Tribulation.
You have not read the book, havent you? You just went to some pro pre-trib rapture website and quoted that.

:unsure:

Had you read the book, or even the entire chapter, you would know his commentary on Matthew 24 mentions the church being refined in that tribulation, and the antichrist persecuting the church.
PRAY TELL how is it possible if the church isnt present?
Oh yeah its because he had no idea people would come around today and claim the church is "completed" before the LAST DAY and we switch back to Israel or tribulation saints, NOBODY ever believed that.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
5,190
228
63
#75
Irenaeus was actually post-trib btw.

"And they [the ten kings] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord" [Against Heresies 5.26.1].

Many quotes on that from Irenaeus, he believed the church was present during the antichrist reign. No early church father from the first 4centuries was pre-trib. Not a single one.
The same thing in the Didache, which has a clear order of events.
Fake news!
What's your point? For most of that time the RCC was in control. And since when did the majority determine the validity of a doctrine? Let God be true and every man a liar. I also believe that as the last days approach, the Lord will give more discernment of the teachings of the last days in Scripture. God's timing is always perfect.

And the word church in the bible does not always mean the body of Christ just like the word saved is not always eternal salvation. The NT church is the body of Christ. The OT church was the nation of Israel.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
903
292
63
#76
To respond to this:

1. The Church is both literally and spiritually redeemed Jews and Gentiles in ONE BODY.
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor 12:12,13)

2. There will be a finite number of Gentiles added to the Church:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Rom 11:25) [Church completed]

3. After that God will redeem and restore Israel with a believing remnant (Rom 11):
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

A careful study of OT prophecies will confirm what is stated here.
Hey bro Nehemiah.

I agree with you that there WILL BE a restoration of Jews. BUT where I believe you and I differ is that I believe that the jews will JOIN the Church, not be a separate thing AFTER the church is completed.

You understand my point? English isnt my native language so I understand sometimes there maybe communication issues, but I hope you got my idea.
Do you agree with it, and if not, why not?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
6,636
1,041
113
#77
Do you agree with it, and if not, why not?
The Bible does not agree with you. My opinion does not matter.

ISRAEL SHALL BE REDEEMED AND RESTORED

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. (Isa 45:17)

I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory. (Isa 46:13)

Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.(Isa 44:23)

He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit. (Isa 27:6)

For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody. (Isa 51:3)

And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. In that day shall the branch of the LORD [CHRIST] be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain. (Isa 4:1-6)

Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest? And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel... Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale. But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel. (Isa 29:17-19; 22-23)

Then shall he give the rain of thy seed, that thou shalt sow the ground withal; and bread of the increase of the earth, and it shall be fat and plenteous: in that day shall thy cattle feed in large pastures. The oxen likewise and the young asses that ear the ground shall eat clean provender, which hath been winnowed with the shovel and with the fan. And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall. Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound. (Isa 30:23-26)

For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off. (Isa 55:12,13)

Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me. (Isa 49:22,23)

And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising… Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee… And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought... Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob... The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. (Isa 60:3,5,10,11,16, 19-21)

And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. (Isa 61:4-6)

And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God... And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken. (Isa 62:2,3,12)


 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
903
292
63
#78
The Bible does not agree with you. My opinion does not matter.

ISRAEL SHALL BE REDEEMED AND RESTORED

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. (Isa 45:17)

I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory. (Isa 46:13)

Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.(Isa 44:23)

He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit. (Isa 27:6)

For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody. (Isa 51:3)

And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. In that day shall the branch of the LORD [CHRIST] be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain. (Isa 4:1-6)

Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest? And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel... Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale. But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel. (Isa 29:17-19; 22-23)

Then shall he give the rain of thy seed, that thou shalt sow the ground withal; and bread of the increase of the earth, and it shall be fat and plenteous: in that day shall thy cattle feed in large pastures. The oxen likewise and the young asses that ear the ground shall eat clean provender, which hath been winnowed with the shovel and with the fan. And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall. Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound. (Isa 30:23-26)

For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off. (Isa 55:12,13)
Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me. (Isa 49:22,23)


And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising… Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee… And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought... Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob... The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. (Isa 60:3,5,10,11,16, 19-21)

And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. (Isa 61:4-6)

And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God... And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken. (Isa 62:2,3,12)
But uhh. I just said that indeed there will be many jews saved in the last times? Joining the Church.

Not being a separate renegade entity. But in Christ.

None of those verses prove me wrong? None of them deny israel joining the church, which is teh ONLY PLACE for salvation. the Lord's church. Way of salvation is the same for all. From now until the LAST DAY.

Do you know that even the Jewish 'rabbis agree that there will be "one people" in the Messiah? Because in the OT in the texts you quoted, it mentions them all under the Messiah, gentiles and jews. Dont know how this disproves me at all? reinforces my point lol
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,047
949
113
65
Illinois
#79
At the end (in eternity) there will be three groups. The Jew, The Nations, and the Church. They are distinct . . . and the children of Israel will receive the land as their inheritance as the wife of God, the Nations will visit Jerusalem on an annual basis to bring gifts and enjoy the fruits of the tree, and the church will be adorned as the bride of Christ.

There will be no lost people.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
903
292
63
#80
At the end (in eternity) there will be three groups. The Jew, The Nations, and the Church. They are distinct . . . and the children of Israel will receive the land as their inheritance as the wife of God, the Nations will visit Jerusalem on an annual basis to bring gifts and enjoy the fruits of the tree, and the church will be adorned as the bride of Christ.

There will be no lost people.
Wow. Even in eternity the distinction remains?
This makes little sense.

A jew gets saved today, WHICH PART does he get in eternity? Is he "adorned as the bride of Christ" or "does he get the land as his inheritance as the wife of God"? Since he would be both a "jew" and part of the "church"