REVELATION

JaumeJ · Feb 5, 2017

In asking for understanding when reading Revelation it is wise to look for fulfillments of prophecy without attempting to interpret.

When prophecies are fulfilled or being fulfilled the children understand.

Ahwatukee · Feb 5, 2017

Hello samuel23,

It would not make sense to me and that because, the Lord's promise to gather the church was/is to the entire church. If the Lord had returned in the first century, only a very, very small percentage of the church would have partaken of His promise, while the vast majority of the church from the second century until now would have been left out. The promise of the gathering of the church in 1 Thes.4:13-17 includes the entire church, from beginning to end.

The answer to this is simple, the Lord is not done building His church. Regarding the above, scripture anyone who would say that, would be fulfilling prophecy, for regarding the last days scripture says:

"Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, 'Where is this ‘coming’ he promised?' Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Below is one of the reasons that he has not yet come to gather His church:

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

tanakh · Feb 5, 2017

Bladerunner said:

The Talmud started off as a body of oral teachings and Scripture interpretation of the Torah given by Jewish Rabbis and passed down through the generations. A tradition developed that these teachings were first given by God to Moses and
were seen as of equal value as the written Torah. After centuries of persecution they began to be written down in order to preserve them. They were and still are added to. The Talmud contains practical guidance and interpretation as to how to fulfill gods law in everyday life. It also contains a lot of theory and speculation some of which was condemned by Jesus.
The Talmud was preserved and continued by the Pharisees who after the fall of Jerusalem became the only group that survived. They developed into modern day Judaism of which there are a number of different branches.

At the time of Jesus there was great expectation of the coming of the Messiah that would free the nation from Rome. The Hebrew for Messiah means Gods anointed. Israels kings were anointed with oil and were seen as Messiahs but the one expected more than anyone was he that would restore Israel and rule the world which would be transformed into a paradise like Eden. Originally it was believed by many that there would be two Messiahs one suffering and one conquering
By the time of Jesus the suffering Messiah was forgotten by most Jews and a popular conquering one was expected. Jesus
didnt appear to fit this expectation also the Jewish authorities were making a good living under the Romans and saw him as a threat to their living standards. Most Jews today are still waiting for a conquering Messiah and do not consider Jesus to be him.

Ariel82 · Feb 5, 2017

samuel23 said:

I have often thought that if Jesus had returned in the first century then the bible would make perfect sense. The message in Daniel that during the reign of the 4th beast(Rome) that God would set up a kingdom on earth(perfect fit). The Ruler that was(Nero or whoever) and the one to come(Antichrist), and the great urgency that it was about to happen would also fit. The great tribulation and signs would go nicely with what happened, however everything continued as always and so many years later it still is. People who are not Christians think we are crazy, believing in a return of Christ that should have happened 1900 years ago. If I did not personally know the Lord I would think we are crazy.

Have you read on this topic?

https://www.the-highway.com/amilc_Hoekema.html

GaryA · Feb 5, 2017

samuel23 said:

For anyone who is willing to seriously consider the possibility that the Great Tribulation is not confined to being a relatively short period of time ( i.e. - 7 years ), the prophecy of the End Times Scenario can make "absolutely perfect" sense...

This one erroneous assumption ( a short tribulation period ) -- "all by itself" -- confuses most people's interpretation of End Times prophecy beyond repair.

How do you escape it?

Start with this:

Study the End Times Scenario with regard to 'events'. ( Best method I know... )

Forget everything else. Make no assumptions. Only consider what scripture is actually saying, and not what you have been told it means.

( Yes -- you may have to 'unbrainwash' yourself first; however, it is necessary! Do it! )

Study everything in 'event' terms:

~ What occurs before what

~ What occurs after what

~ What occurs at the same time as what

It will help if you have an understanding of the following:

~ The 'grammar of the language'

~ The character of God

~ The timing of God

After you have established an 'Order of Events', then compare it to the historical events of our past and present.

At this point, it will help if you have an understanding of the 'times of the Jews' and the 'times of the Gentiles'.

Study prayerfully. And...

Don't try to "figure it all out"; let the Bible teach you.

GaryA · Feb 5, 2017

samuel23 said:

We understand something that is written by a series of progressive steps, each building on the previous step so that we can look back as looking down a stairway and see that everything is in order from beginning to end. I believe the difference between Revelation and other books of the bible(all books) is that the forward progression of steps is at times interrupted and we are temporarily lead completely away from the stairway in order to explain more carefully a pertinent subject. After the particular subject has been explained, then the forward progression is continued up the stairway. I think one must first describe the basic steps from beginning to end without worrying about the places where the steps disappear and begin again. Once the basic progressive steps are in place, then go back and examine each place where a stop was made in order to explain something. First I will attempt to describe the basic steps that are in order. First, Antichrist on white horse, followed by great war, famine, disease, death, great persecution of believers, one fourth of the earth dies. Then the heavens are shaken and people hide because it is the time of Christ return. Special people of the Jews are sealed and the church is in Heaven after having gone through that time of tribulation and been raptured. The wrath of the Lamb has begin, those steps are all clear, but now they disappear and reappear much later when Jesus personally defeats the Antichrist. In between those steps are a lot of side issues, some of which happened in the previous known steps, and that is where much of the mystery of Revelation is found.

I sure am glad that somebody else on CC understands that biblical prophecy ( [ especially ] End Times prophecy, in particular ) sometimes makes 'asides' / "sidesteps" --- as opposed to always being in "simple, straight-forward, chronological order"...

Ahwatukee · Feb 5, 2017

Hello GaryA,

First of all, the great tribulation is not the entire seven years, but the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. If anyone considers it to be any longer, they are just ignoring scripture. In Matt.24:15-21, Jesus made it clear that the great tribulation begins in the middle of the seven when the abomination is set up in the holy place within the temple and which also causes Israel to flee out into the wilderness where she will be cared for during that last 3 1/2 years. It is also at this time when the antichrist/beast will stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. Therefore, to make the great tribulation longer than what is described in scripture, is to just ignore the scriptural facts.

Bladerunner · Feb 5, 2017

tanakh said:

The Talmud started off as a body of oral teachings and Scripture interpretation of the Torah given by Jewish Rabbis and passed down through the generations. A tradition developed that these teachings were first given by God to Moses and
were seen as of equal value as the written Torah. After centuries of persecution they began to be written down in order to preserve them. They were and still are added to. The Talmud contains practical guidance and interpretation as to how to fulfill gods law in everyday life. It also contains a lot of theory and speculation some of which was condemned by Jesus.
The Talmud was preserved and continued by the Pharisees who after the fall of Jerusalem became the only group that survived. They developed into modern day Judaism of which there are a number of different branches.

At the time of Jesus there was great expectation of the coming of the Messiah that would free the nation from Rome. The Hebrew for Messiah means Gods anointed. Israels kings were anointed with oil and were seen as Messiahs but the one expected more than anyone was he that would restore Israel and rule the world which would be transformed into a paradise like Eden. Originally it was believed by many that there would be two Messiahs one suffering and one conquering
By the time of Jesus the suffering Messiah was forgotten by most Jews and a popular conquering one was expected. Jesus
didnt appear to fit this expectation also the Jewish authorities were making a good living under the Romans and saw him as a threat to their living standards. Most Jews today are still waiting for a conquering Messiah and do not consider Jesus to be him.

Thank you very much.....Do you mind if I copy this and use it in some of my teachings?

It is very sad but it was foretold and here we are... The sad part is that those that do not see Jesus as their Messiah, as those Jewish people that are prophesied in Isaiah 28:14-x will find out. They can not use a convenant to hide from destiny.

Thank you again and I wish you well my friend.

tanakh · Feb 6, 2017

Bladerunner said:

By all means use it if you feel it helps, but I would advise you to do some research via books or the Internet for a more detailed account of the history of Judaism at the time of Jesus and the present day.

followjesus · Feb 6, 2017

JaumeJ said:

The prophets work like this

isaiah 13:10 "For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED in his going forth, and the MOON SHALL NOT CAUSE HER LIGHT TO SHINE ."

mark 13:24-25 "But in those days, AFTER that tribulation, the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, and the MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, 25And the STARS OF HEAVEN SHALL FALL, and the powers that are IN HEAVEN SHALL BE SHAKEN ."

joel 2:10 "The earth shall quake before them; the HEAVENS SHALL TREMBLE: THE SUN and the MOON SHALL BE DARK, and the STARS SHALL WITHDRAW THIER SHINING:

Ezekiel 32:7"And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof DARK; I will COVER THE SUN with a cloud, and THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT."

joel 3:15-16 "The SUN AND THE MOON SHALL BE DARKENED , and the STARS shall WITHDRAW THIER SHINING. 16The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter HIS VOICE FROM JERUSALEM ; and the heavens and the earth SHALL SHAKE: but the LORD will be the hope of HIS PEOPLE, and the strength of the children of Israel." ( see v9 " speak this unto the gentiles" is how this part of the prophecy begins)

Now consider some of the things described in revelation concerning the end times (as the above refer to) only a small example, the prophets work this way with almost the whole new testament whether its " what will the Christ do?" what is Jesus role?" what is the kingdom of God?" does the mosaic Law apply to christians?" is there a Judgement day? the answers are found from the prophets all the way to the end of revelation, and it all adds to itself and grows understanding and Knowledge. It all for our edification.

JaumeJ · Feb 6, 2017

If God speaks of the Twelve Tribes, it is because He knows where all are. If He knows where you are, and dHe knows where the rest of us are, He certainly knows to where He has scattered the so-called "lost Tribes."

God's Arm is not shortened by the faithlessness of man. He said it, He will do it.

As for horses......have you not heard of the Chinese caavalry? This report may or may not be true, but understanding the meanings of parables and other dark sayings are for the children to understand when it is time, and we will.

samuel23 said:

Bladerunner · Feb 6, 2017

tanakh said:

Thanks. I will assume the Judaism you are talking about in the time of Jesus is the destruction of the Temple in 70ad. That is what brought on all the changes to the Torah. The inability to make sacrifices thus washing away their sins.

Thank you again....

BobR · Jun 8, 2017

samuel23 said:

Hi Samuel23,
Thank you for your question. What a wonderful way for me to start my social campaign for the research life work I started working on over 50 years ago. The questions you have asked here are questions which have been asked repeatedly for the past 2000 years and answered by scores of scholars, theologians and laymen alike; those claiming to have the gift of prophecy given by YHWH, God, himself, or through a multitude of years in theological schools and other intensive study. Most of the answers you have received in this forum thus far have been well thought out and mostly provable points generally taught by the “dispensationalists.” I especially appreciate the points made by tanakh who referred you to find direction toward understanding The Book of The Revelation in the Bible’s Old Testament prophetic writings, and the opening statement made by Stunnedbygrace who stated that: “I think Revelation is written in a form that is so confusing to the human mind that no man will figure out any part of it without the Holy Spirits help.”

I asked for that help when I was but still a teenager and had an experience which ended up in an intensive Biblical study which lasted about 25 years with a self-published rough draft of a book explaining the process I went through and the basic understanding of the prophecy as given in The Revelation. This book answers the type of questions you have asked here in this forum and many others, but it does not follow conventional dispensational thought, nor specifically any other theory/theology being promoted by the current day theologians. Room and courtesy does not allow a detailed accounting for how the prophecies are best interpreted here in this forum, however you can read my book free if you have a Kindle Unlimited membership. The book is for sale on Kindle also at a low price which I mention only to let you know at risk of being censored by this Web-sites managers for breaking the forum’s marketing rules. This is mention of my book is for your information only and not intended to specifically promote the sale of my book. You can find it by entering “Robbins REVEALED” into the Amazon.com search engine. However if this answer to the question is censored or not allowed to post due to the marketing rule, I understand as I am in full agreement with that rule.

Now, let’s look at a few of your questions. I am going to approach your last question first. . . “why is Rev written in such an unorthodox manner that it cannot be understood in the traditional way?” The answer to this has been partially answered by previous commenters. Jesus stated clearly that there were some things that were given for his disciples and other believers to know, but not the unbelievers. Thus, Jesus explained that he taught in parables. When the disciples stated however that they did not understand the parables Jesus showed some surprise that they did not know how to interpret the parables. Jesus was Rabbani, meaning “master teacher.” Once I realized this I decided to search diligently into the way Jesus said to understand parables and prophecies and not so much what denominational teachers said. The search started with the teaching Jesus gave the disciples about the “Parable of the Sower” which essentially, if viewed logically and systematically, is a vocabulary lesson of how each word is defined by another until the whole of the parable is taken from figurative to literal wording – much more understandable.

This one lesson then lead to attempting to find other parables to understand in this way, and indeed the lessons of the parables began opening a spiritual path and universe that many are only able to talk about and hope for. Then came the realization that prophecies are nothing more than the recording of dreams and visions which are but spiritual parables and can be interpreted in the same way. So I set forth to attempt to prove this by setting a goal to remove the book of The Revelation from its alliterative state. Easier said than done. It took several years with the help of many students and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to find enough words to make the story found in the recordings by the Apostle John more usable, and several more years to put it in a presentable form.

Now understand, this has not been done to show off my knowledge nor to make claim of having a gift of prophecy. What I have done could be done by anyone with the fortitude to stick to a specific, while difficult, goal and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Nearly all of the words of The Revelation, and all other prophecies and parables, are defined in the Holy Bible as we know it. All we need do is set our hearts toward finding them and “rightly dividing the word of God” to make them useful

For instance, the idea of horses in modern combat. First we see surprising pictures from the middle east battles where some of the militants do indeed ride horses in battle even in today’s modern mechanized warfare. This is because in some areas the sandy dessert conditions can cause extreme mechanical problems making most machinery unusable. But that’s really not the issue here. When you look up the word “horse” in the scriptures to find its alliterative meaning you eventually find that a horse, in ancient battle, was essential to the armies of that time as recorded by Ezekiel (28:4), and that the word horsemen referred to soldiers (NEH 2:9). Therefore the literal word for the spiritual word of “horse” would be “army.” When one substitutes the word into the prophecy, along with the many other words found in the vision, the meaning becomes much more understandable and timely.

Please understand, this systematic study of the prophecies is not one to be taken lightly and cannot be done effectively without dedicating one’s self to the study of the Holy Word of God. The confusion over the meanings of the alliterative language has come simply because a great many of well-meaning theologians have interpreted many of the words from figurative to literal, but when they could find no more they declared the rest of the words undefinable and tried to mix the literal with the figurative; causing confusion.

After the alliterations are interpreted, the next step must be to understand how such visions can be shown to fit into Earth’s history. One person stated correctly that the book of The Revelation was as a completion of Daniel’s prophecies. As such, since Daniel always correlated the dreams and vision he spoke of as being fulfilled by history, the same would be true of the book of The Revelation. Most people understand this but the question is how does one know which historical event is to be correlated with which prophetic event? This is where the guidance of the Holy Spirit is of utmost importance, but the facts must be clear, points cannot be skipped nor ignored, and historical accuracy and witnesses must be demanded.
Why were the prophecies put in this hidden language? To protect it. To protect us as believers. But now its prophecies are all but completed, provable by time; and once proven they cannot be denied.

To learn more please visit my blog at espirational.org. This article has been reprinted there along with the question presented here.

Blessings on your studies of God’s Word.

tanakh · Jun 8, 2017

samuel23 said:

Revelation relies heavily on the OT. To understand the meaning of much of it a fairly good working knowledge of the whole Bible is needed, not just the books of Daniel and Matthew 24, although they are important. Many things in the book have types and shadows of People Places and Events in the OT. I think this is because the message of revelation was meant for people throughout the Christian age. Many of the events in Revelation have happened repeatedly throughout the centuries such as natural disasters, wars and persecution by Antichrist like figures. In every generation people have obtained hope from the promises contained in the book and will continue to do so until the time when the events portrayed will ultimately come to pass and Christ will return as he promised.

BobR · Jan 22, 2018

samuel23 said:

Hi Samuel23. It's been about a year since you posted your original question about the manner of language in which "The Revelation" was recorded. The discussion seemed to last just a short while and then stopped. Did you receive what you feel is an adequate answer to your inquiry? I saw it at that time, however since this sight seems to have emphasis on "Pre-tribulation Rapture" theory, and I do not agree with such theory, I withheld comment out of respect of opinion and site ownership. However this discussion appeared on my computer screen this morning without my having gone to the Christian Chat Web-page nor doing anything else to cause it to appear so I'll accept that as a request to make comment.

I agree with those who made comment to you concerning the fact that the words used by John are "parabolic." However to say that only part of the book of The Revelation parabolic and other parts are not just leads to confusion. The whole book is parabolic, that is written in code. And the accepted books of the Bible contains the interpretation to that code. However it takes much dedication and study to interpret that code. Sadly there has been much guesswork by theologians concerning the meanings of the parabolic words found in The Revelation. Since I feel that I am a guest here, I will not attempt to prove these meanings wrong, nor mine right. But the fact is that the reason such a code was used and The Revelation was written with it was as a protection to the believer.

I spent over 25 years of my earlier life studying the Hebrew/Christian scriptures to find and describe this coded language. The words become understandable once their definitions are found in the Bible. This follows a basic teaching which Jesus gave to his disciples when he was asked to explain the parable of the sower. Below I will quote the whole explanation where Jesus gives an outline of how to understand the parabolic language which I placed in my book now titled simply, REVEALED, a two volume book series available only through Kindle books (by R.O. Robbins). It has the history of the prophetic language and how it can be found, a dictionary of parabolic words needed to understand The Revelation and a parallel of the book of The Revelation with history as was shown to be the common method of interpretation of prophecy in the book of Daniel.

An example of how to interpret a parabolic story was given by Jesus, himself, when, as mentioned earlier, he explained the parable of the sower:

Behold a sower went forth to sow; and when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places where they had not much earth: And forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; And because they had no root, they withered away.
And some fell among thorns: The thorns sprung up, and choked them: But others fell into the good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Who have ears to hear let him hear.” (MAT 13:3-9-KJV)

When one hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

But he that received the seed into stony, place, the same is he that hears the word, and anon with joy receives it; Yet has he not root in himself, but endures for awhile: For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, by and by he is offended.

He also that received seen among the thorns is he that hears the word, and the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

But he that receives the seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; Which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” (MAT 13:19-23 KJV)

1.6.3 Many prophetic definitions are found within these few sentences. A prophetic definitions is a word or words which, when it is replaced for the word or words which, when it is replaced for the word used in either the prophecy or parable, is just as understandable in its sentence of the story and opens up the parallel meaning of that story. In the chart (Figure 1.6.4) one sees Jesus saying that certain definitions are undeniably true.

1.6.4 Many prophetic definitions have been recognized by both law people and pastors alike. Some are easily distinguishable because Jesus has defined them for us. However, the word “fruit” has generally been misinterpreted as being “converts” to the sower’s particular beliefs, when in fact it is the righteousness within a believer’s life which Paul says best defines the prophetic word (PHL 1:11).

After replacing these words as they appear in the parable with the prophetic definitions, we finds the parable reads as follows: “Behold a Son of Man went forth to speak; and when he (spoke) speaked some words fell by the one without understanding, and the wicked ones came and (caught them away) catching awayed them up: Some fell upon tribulations where they had not much foundation where they had not much foundation: and forthwith they with joy received it, because they had no (maturity) root in self of foundation: And when the persecution, because of the Word, was up they were (offended) offence and because they had no (maturity) root in self they (were) offended.”

“And some fell among cares of the world and deceitfulness of riches: and the cares of the world and deceitfulness of riches with joy received it, and choked them: But others fell into understanding, and brought forth righteousness, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. Who have ears to hear, let him hear.” (MAT 13:3-9 –LAV: showing interpolation process).

Now compare the interpreted, revealed version with the way the Lord interpreted the same parable:
“Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the Kingdom and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was own in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

But he that received the seed into stony places the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; yet had he not root in himself, but bureth for a while; For when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

He also that received seen among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit and bringeth forth some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
(MAT 3:18-23--- KJV)

How true! With this understanding we could preach whole sermons or write lengthy books, with the epitome being that if a person hears the Truth and understands it will bring forth in that life righteousness: some 100%, others 60%, in some only 30%. The writing of those books is left to those who have become aware of this truth.

Search

REVELATION

JaumeJ

Senior Member

Ahwatukee

Senior Member

tanakh

Senior Member

Ariel82

Guest

GaryA

Guest

GaryA

Guest

Ahwatukee

Senior Member

Bladerunner

Senior Member

tanakh

Senior Member

followjesus

Banned

JaumeJ

Senior Member

Bladerunner

Senior Member

BobR

Junior Member

tanakh

Senior Member

BobR

Junior Member