Revelation.

[phil36]

Which parts do you take literal in Revelation and which Parts do you not?

If its symbolic, is it linear, its certainly Apocalypti we know that so how do you read it.. is it literal. is it all about the end times or does some of it pertain to now? or the past?

I am just interested to know how we read Revelation. I mean is there really going to be a red angel on a red horse flying around, is there really going to be a big beast come out of the sea. this also begs the question if you do not take this as literal, then why do you choose other parts to be literal?

Regarding the seals, is this an earthly perspective or a heavenly one, is it a literal seal, or an image John would have understood in human terms.

How would the 1st century believers have taken this book, surely John would not have written a book so obscure that they would not be able to understand it, and that only us modern people can?

Would the 1st century believers have understood the symbolism?

Anyhow... this is not intent to start a fallout just, a scriptural understanding of Revelation. so the focus is not on what you believe, but how you read this Apocalyptic genre. and why you do so, how do you get your conclusions things like that. not a cat fight over what millennium means.


Phil

 

[MahogonySnail]

I mean is there really going to be a red angel on a red horse flying around, is there really going to be a big beast come out of the sea. this also begs the question if you do not take this as literal, then why do you choose other parts to be literal?

These things are obviously symbolic.

We know that a sword does not literally come out of Jesus's mouth.
We know that Jesus does not literally ride a horse.
We know that Jesus does not literally fight against earthly humans with human weapons.
We know that there is no such thing as dragons.

The author of Revelation needed to use mystery for a document which was basically an attack on their current government and religious authorities. It would have been dangerous to make plain statements.

 

[VW]

You don't do either one, but instead let the Spirit explain what it means. And if He does not, then you don't guess about what it means.

 

[phil36]

You don't do either one, but instead let the Spirit explain what it means. And if He does not, then you don't guess about what it means.

Ok, so How has the Spirit shown you how to read revelation, what is symbolical what is not, is it literal, is it about the suffering church? or is it just pertaining to end times?

Phil

 

[MahogonySnail]

Understanding Revelation is incredibly easier once we ditch the "everything must be literal" mindset. And letting the Spirit explain what it means doesn't really work. The Holy Spirit can't teach Revelation to a person without consulting some more knowledgable theological resources about the subject.
The ones I've read are surprisingly practical, common sense, and all fit the puzzle together nicely.

 

[phil36]

Understanding Revelation is incredibly easier once we ditch the "everything must be literal" mindset. And letting the Spirit explain what it means doesn't really work. The Holy Spirit can't teach Revelation to a person without consulting some more knowledgable theological resources about the subject.
The ones I've read are surprisingly practical, common sense, and all fit the puzzle together nicely.

I can't believe this I am in agreement with Mahogony.... think I need to see a doctor..lol

Phil

 

[704champion]

hey phil,

I haven't done major studies into this book, yet. I've alwys studied just me and the Lord. so I take it as it comes.

Jesus told john to write the things he has seen, things which are and things which shall be hereafter. that's the one way I know to break the book down.

chapter 1 is the things he has seen, chapters 2 and 3 are things which are and chapters 4 through the rest of the book are things which shall be hereafter.

notice the church isn't mentioned after chapter 3. you don't hear of the church again till chapter 19 when Christ returns with all believers behind Him.

blake

 

[VW]

Ok, so How has the Spirit shown you how to read revelation, what is symbolical what is not, is it literal, is it about the suffering church? or is it just pertaining to end times?

Phil

Hi Phil, I think it is a mistake to try to see it in a certain way, literal or symbolical. I believe that we need to open our hearts and minds to be taught without preconceived ideas about what it must be.

As to what the Spirit has shown me;
When we see Jesus, we will be struck in much the same way that John was struck by His majesty.
That if we have an ear, we can hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
That the bride is very different from what most expect her to be, and her place is not what so many expect.
That the wrath of God is coming, that it is terrible, and that people will not turn to Him, even in light of His wrath.
That many of the events which John saw and related to us are literal events.
That all religion will die with Babylon.
The literal demise of the devil and his false prophet and the beast.
That the judgment is sure, and we do not understand it even now.
That the new creation is coming in which there will not be any corruption of any kind.
That the bride is the new city Jerusalem.
That the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in the new city Jerusalem, and that His bond servants shall serve Him and they shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads.

And many other things besides.

In His love,
vic

 

[VW]

Understanding Revelation is incredibly easier once we ditch the "everything must be literal" mindset. And letting the Spirit explain what it means doesn't really work. The Holy Spirit can't teach Revelation to a person without consulting some more knowledgable theological resources about the subject.
The ones I've read are surprisingly practical, common sense, and all fit the puzzle together nicely.

It doesn't work because it has not been tried in a very long time.

God's ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts.

Our practical common sense is to Him foolishness.

 

[VW]

It is a common misconception that God gave us a brain to use. That was true before the fall, but from that time on, we need our brain renewed, and that happens from the inner man, that is, the new man who is created in the image of Christ, and with the most needed help of the mind of Christ, which is in us by the Spirit.

But you all know how I believe in this. So no surprise here.

 

[phil36]

It is a common misconception that God gave us a brain to use. That was true before the fall, but from that time on, we need our brain renewed, and that happens from the inner man, that is, the new man who is created in the image of Christ, and with the most needed help of the mind of Christ, which is in us by the Spirit.

But you all know how I believe in this. So no surprise here.

I need a brain transplant... on a serious note though, you are right about having to be renewed VW.

Phil

 

[glenwood74]

God's perfect will and unfathomable knowledge has kept men arguing over biblical prophecy since Adam and Eve ate that forbidden fruit. Through His Holy Spirit, He wrote a series of books that has served as historical documentation, as a moral and spiritual guidebook, and as an apocalyptic look into the future. Just as Jesus spoke in parables, The lord sees fit to veil this prophetic flash forward with a thick layer of symbolic allegory and poetic artistry. Ultimately all 66 books are the living word of God and we need to understand that if one were to do an intense study, everyday, for 70 to 80 years, then we would only scratch the surface of the Father's will and loving intentions. The bible should probably mean something different to each and every one of us for the Lord desires a unique and special relationship with us all as individuals. I would be weary of any person who would be so prideful to go about with the silly notion that they had the whole intent and mindset of our Almighty God figured out. If we could figure God out then He wouldn't be God......

Revelations is one of my favorite books in the bible. I chuckle at any person who claims that they understand it completely.

 

[phil36]

God's perfect will and unfathomable knowledge has kept men arguing over biblical prophecy since Adam and Eve ate that forbidden fruit. Through His Holy Spirit, He wrote a series of books that has served as historical documentation, as a moral and spiritual guidebook, and as an apocalyptic look into the future. Just as Jesus spoke in parables, The lord sees fit to veil this prophetic flash forward with a thick layer of symbolic allegory and poetic artistry. Ultimately all 66 books are the living word of God and we need to understand that if one were to do an intense study, everyday, for 70 to 80 years, then we would only scratch the surface of the Father's will and loving intentions. The bible should probably mean something different to each and every one of us for the Lord desires a unique and special relationship with us all as individuals. I would be weary of any person who would be so prideful to go about with the silly notion that they had the whole intent and mindset of our Almighty God figured out. If we could figure God out then He wouldn't be God......

Revelations is one of my favorite books in the bible. I chuckle at any person who claims that they understand it completely.

That was a good post glenwood.. but do you think, it was a mystery to the readers it was sent to? or do you think they new, or was a mystery, and if so what was the point of it?

Thats not an attack on your post, for I enjoyed your post, but just questions.

Phil

Phil

 

[glenwood74]

That was a good post glenwood.. but do you think, it was a mystery to the readers it was sent to? or do you think they new, or was a mystery, and if so what was the point of it?

Thats not an attack on your post, for I enjoyed your post, but just questions.

Phil

Phil

As far as the authors knowing the intent, that would probably have to be taken on a case by case basis. The Lord tells Daniel to seal up the prophecies of his book until the time of the end, sort of implying that Daniel knew the whole scope of the prophecies therein. John is constantly having the visions he saw explained to him by angels, so I see Revelations as a complete work of God. I'm sure that John saw the symbolisms of Nero and the letters to the churches were a personal message for the time, but that's the amazing thing, how a letter written almost 2000 years ago could be so alive and applicable today.

I think the point of all scripture is to instruct love to the unloved, convict sin to the prideful, and glorify God to the world, whether it be historical accounts or prophetic allegory.

God bless you Phil, another great thread.

 

[giantone]

Many of the words in revelation have definitions that can be found in revelation and in other parts of the Bible, if you find enough of them then they start making more sense. God hides things for the purpose of us finding them, Revelation doesn't mean hidden it means revealing. Some of this definition finding can be open to interpretation thus it it isn't foolproof but some of it isn't and through process of elimination you can get closer to the truth anyway. I think it also makes a difference what version of the Bible you use for this, I wonder if things are much more clearer in the original language.

 

[ShelleBelle76]

Understanding Revelation is incredibly easier once we ditch the "everything must be literal" mindset. And letting the Spirit explain what it means doesn't really work. The Holy Spirit can't teach Revelation to a person without consulting some more knowledgable theological resources about the subject.
The ones I've read are surprisingly practical, common sense, and all fit the puzzle together nicely.

I did an endtime study not too long ago from a man who has spent his lifetime so far studying Revelations and Daniel. His prayerful interpretations of the symbolism of the scriptures did make a lot of sense. It is a huge puzzle and when you start to see how the scriptures align with our world, not just now but throughout history, it is very convincing. I do think that it takes a huge level of discernment and probably not just anyone on any spiritual level will be able to clearly understand. I plan to revisit Revalations again and again as I mature spiritually to see if my understanding grows. But until then, I am standing with what others have taught me, but keeping an open mind as well.

 

[VW]

I need a brain transplant... on a serious note though, you are right about having to be renewed VW.

Phil

We all need a brain transplant, but God has provided. We can have the mind of Christ.

 

[VW]

This may sound weird, (imagine that coming from me,) but God has the habit of writing His words in such a way that those who wish to be deceived, (understand here that I am speaking of those who do not love God, but love themselves much in the same way that the scribes and pharisees did,) will find what they can use to prove their deception. The Lord told Jeremiah that He actually gave to the children of Israel laws which were not good for them, because He knew that they could not or would not keep them. There seem to be passages which support opposing viewpoints throughout scripture. I believe that this is on purpose, not to confuse us or even to make possible a deceived heart, but because He allows us to make up our own minds, or listen to His mind. If the children of Israel had not hardened their hearts at the mountain when God spoke to them His covenant, if they had just opened their hearts to hear Him, there would never have been a need for the commandments to be written and all of the other laws to be added.

Revelations is the culmination of this way of God communicating with those who wish to learn without hearing, in my opinion. Even those who are not saved, who do not even believe in God study this prophecy, and they get some really weird understandings from it.

 

[mpaper345]

The book of revelation is literal.

The seals will happen over a long period of time,which have already started.

The trumpets are for a shorter period of time than the seals,which already started,and probably started with world war 1.

The vials are for a short period which will be the wrath on the people that followed the beast and took his mark.

The letters to the 7 churches is a prophesy of how the church age will go until the 10 horn kingdom.

The book of Revelation is literal but uses symbolic symbols to describe some parts,like the 4 horsemen.
There will not be literal horses but is describing it that way to tell of what shall happen on earth.

In the Bible a woman's long hair represents power and glory.

John described the 5th trumpet,the locusts of having hair like a woman,which means that the locusts had power and glory to them,not really woman's hair.

John used symbolic symbols to describe the literal.

The book of Revelation is literal.

Matt

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Structurally, I think that it divides up into four parts (Ch 1-3, 4-11, 12, and 13-21) The close parallels between the plagues of the trumpets and the plagues of the bowls leads me to think there is some linear structure in those two portions. Chapter 12 is obviously a wide overview of time. While I believe the narrative is literal, there are many symbols that are not. Daniel, Zechariah and Exodus are great helps in interpreting Revelation. Also, keep in mind that it is a Revelation of Jesus Christ and the most important things that you can learn in the book are about Jesus.