Revelation.

[Israel]

Well then, Jesus is in the same boat as Paul, for two reasons. One is that Paul received his truth from Jesus by revelation, and the other is that Jesus Himself gave us a new commandment. Now you might not believe this, but the Law is one. When Jesus gave us His new commandment, He replaced the old commandment, which by the way was rejected by the people of Israel. They hardened their hearts to not hear His voice. Something else for you to consider, I am not of the house of Jacob, so according to your doctrine, I am not even able to receive salvation.

Live in the Law, that is up to you. But if you teach that we must follow the Law, then I will withstand you, every time. The Law was and is faulty, because it works through and on the flesh, and thus is not able to make anything or anyone perfect. Thus it had to be replaced by a better covenant, one that is not dependent on the flesh or even on the worshiper to become perfect, and so through Jesus, everyone who is drawing near to God through Jesus is being made perfect because He always lives to interceded for them.

It depends on how you look at it.

Romans 3:19-20

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

No flesh is justified by the law. That includes Jesus!

Galatians 3:10-13

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Did you see the last verse? Christ redeemed us from the CURSE of the law.
Now for the new commandment, what was it?

 

[VW]

It depends on how you look at it.

Romans 3:19-20

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

No flesh is justified by the law. That includes Jesus!

Galatians 3:10-13

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Did you see the last verse? Christ redeemed us from the CURSE of the law.
Now for the new commandment, what was it?

Well now, you missed it, because in this passage Paul is comparing the living under that Law against living in faith. Everyone who is under the Law is already cursed. Everyone who lives in faith is already pleasing to God.

The new commandment? Are you kidding?

A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another even as I have loved you, so you love one another. By this all men shall know that you are my disciples.

What is so wonderful about this new commandment is that it is fulfilled in us by God, by His Spirit in us. Against love there is no law. And even better, faith works by love. And not last, but by far the greatest, God is love. So if we love, with God's love, which is the only way that we will fulfill His new commandment, then it is because of God's life in us, because of our becoming His children, by birth into His family by His Spirit.

Now I will tell you something else that you should know about this; no flesh will ever be justified, and the truth of this is that Jesus died to all fleshly life, that all who believe in Him should have spiritual life, which is eternal, thus fulfilling His purpose, which as He said is, that we might have life, and that more abundantly. And something else you should know, that whoever lives and believes in Him and shall never die. That is salvation, that is eternal life.

I pray that you find these things, so that you too might come to know God as Father, that you might learn of His grace and meet Him in truth.

 

[Israel]

Well now, you missed it, because in this passage Paul is comparing the living under that Law against living in faith. Everyone who is under the Law is already cursed. Everyone who lives in faith is already pleasing to God.

The new commandment? Are you kidding?

A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another even as I have loved you, so you love one another. By this all men shall know that you are my disciples.

What is so wonderful about this new commandment is that it is fulfilled in us by God, by His Spirit in us. Against love there is no law. And even better, faith works by love. And not last, but by far the greatest, God is love. So if we love, with God's love, which is the only way that we will fulfill His new commandment, then it is because of God's life in us, because of our becoming His children, by birth into His family by His Spirit.

Now I will tell you something else that you should know about this; no flesh will ever be justified, and the truth of this is that Jesus died to all fleshly life, that all who believe in Him should have spiritual life, which is eternal, thus fulfilling His purpose, which as He said is, that we might have life, and that more abundantly. And something else you should know, that whoever lives and believes in Him and shall never die. That is salvation, that is eternal life.

I pray that you find these things, so that you too might come to know God as Father, that you might learn of His grace and meet Him in truth.

I knew it. Just wanted to see if you were going to answer in typical fashion. But that's not the answer to my question. The commandment to love one another has always been a part of God's law.

Leviticus 19:18

Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

So what's the new part?

John 13:34

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another

Christ set the example to follow in loving our neighbor as ourselves.

Now let me ask you this. How do you follow Christ's example of this new commandment?

 

[VW]

I knew it. Just wanted to see if you were going to answer in typical fashion. But that's not the answer to my question. The commandment to love one another has always been a part of God's law.

Leviticus 19:18

Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

So what's the new part?

John 13:34

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another

Christ set the example to follow in loving our neighbor as ourselves.

Now let me ask you this. How do you follow Christ's example of this new coommandment?

Oh, you are so wrong. Jesus did not love us just as He loved Himself, but more. To love your neighbor as yourself is no big deal, it just keeps you from stealing his things, or sleeping with his wife, or from killing him. No, to love another as Jesus loves us is very different. If you don't know this, then you have no conception of the cross, and what it means.

How do I follow my Lord's commandment? I love you enough to tell you the truth, even though I know that it will not get me anything but grief. I don't care, you are one that He died for also, in His love, and was raised again from the dead that in Him you too might have newness of life.

 

[Israel]

Oh, you are so wrong. Jesus did not love us just as He loved Himself, but more. To love your neighbor as yourself is no big deal, it just keeps you from stealing his things, or sleeping with his wife, or from killing him. No, to love another as Jesus loves us is very different. If you don't know this, then you have no conception of the cross, and what it means.

How do I follow my Lord's commandment? I love you enough to tell you the truth, even though I know that it will not get me anything but grief. I don't care, you are one that He died for also, in His love, and was raised again from the dead that in Him you too might have newness of life.

That's what it means in the letter, but what of the spirit?

Romans 2

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Do You understand what Paul is telling you here? What does the spirit tell you?

 

[VW]

I do, and it is obvious that you think that you do to. But consider this, that when Paul mentions the Spirit, and in the spirit, do you imagine that this is by the Law? From what I hear you saying, Paul is at some times wrong, not even understanding the truth of Jesus, but you will then quote to me Paul. But I will ask you this, what does John mean when he gives us the commandments of Jesus as being two, that is, to believe in Him whom God has sent, and to love one another even as He has loved us?

You place such importance in the Law, but do you understand that the Law was given 3 times?

And that Jesus gave His new commandment............3 times.

And even more interesting, that we are commanded to enter into God's presence...........3 times.

You see, under the old covenant, of which the Law is an essential part, the only person who could enter into God's presence was the high priest, and only once a year, and only after shedding blood; and if he entered with an unworthy heart, he died. We are to enter His presence often, even very often, by the blood and the sacrifice of Jesus, through the veil, that is, His flesh which was torn for us, so that we could have access to the Father, which is our salvation. This is grace. The works of the Law are in direct opposition to this.

 

[ShelleBelle76]

Something that came to me this evening...

If we are living perfectly in Christ, we will not be slaves to the law but our righteousness will exceed the requirements of the law, and thus the law will be fullfilled. The law existed for those wordly who need defined rules to live righteously, because salvation through God's grace had not yet come.

But through salvation sin is destroyed and we will live righteously without the need for the law, but by the power of the Holy Spirit. This does not mean that we will not abide by elements of the law, because through righteousness we may live in alignment with many aspects of the law, but not because we are living according to the law, but because we are living righteously according to God's will.

For example, the law says we should not covet. Though I may not covet because I am living righteously by the power of the Holy Spirit, I am not living by the law. But you see how one cannot say, I do not have to refrain from coveting because I am no longer under the law.

So if one says, "I no longer have to do this because I am no longer under the law", he should examine his motives. If you are truly living righteously and sinlessly, you have no need for the law. But if you cannot say you are truly living righteously, then to say you are no longer under the law is simply to excuse your behavior.

 

[Israel]

I do, and it is obvious that you think that you do to. But consider this, that when Paul mentions the Spirit, and in the spirit, do you imagine that this is by the Law? From what I hear you saying, Paul is at some times wrong, not even understanding the truth of Jesus, but you will then quote to me Paul. But I will ask you this, what does John mean when he gives us the commandments of Jesus as being two, that is, to believe in Him whom God has sent, and to love one another even as He has loved us?

You place such importance in the Law, but do you understand that the Law was given 3 times?

And that Jesus gave His new commandment............3 times.

And even more interesting, that we are commanded to enter into God's presence...........3 times.

You see, under the old covenant, of which the Law is an essential part, the only person who could enter into God's presence was the high priest, and only once a year, and only after shedding blood; and if he entered with an unworthy heart, he died. We are to enter His presence often, even very often, by the blood and the sacrifice of Jesus, through the veil, that is, His flesh which was torn for us, so that we could have access to the Father, which is our salvation. This is grace. The works of the Law are in direct opposition to this.

I never said that Paul was wrong at anytime. I understand much about what Paul is trying to say and I totally agree with him. Paul says that the law is SPIRITUAL! The letter of the law was fulfilled in the flesh of Jesus. We, as it has been even in old testament times, walk after the spirit! We would both agree that to steal, kill, or covet is a law we must live by but when the topic of the Sabbath comes up, most christians are quick to point out that we are not under the law but under grace routine. It's funny that for a God that does not change to say that His Sabbath is FOREVER and then do away with it baffles me. But in typical "christian" fashion, you will turn this into a meaning of saturday vs sunday, when in fact, the TRUE meaning of the Sabbath has nothing to do with either one! This is what I mean by still thinking as a carnal man.The Bible states that it is lawfull to do good on anyday of the week. What work must we rest from? What is the last day spoken of when Jesus will raise those in the grave who hears His voice?

 

[pickles]

I keep reading revelations and have understood only a tiny portion so far. Since Ive been reading the OT a little more has made sence.
Although I cannot say how yet. smiles
If anything it shows me the limitless wonder and greatness of God.
I get the sence that we will understand only when the time comes.
I believe it is written for believers as our help , streangth, comfort and understanding when it happens.
Just my thoughts though.
God bless, pickles

 

[VW]

Something that came to me this evening...

If we are living perfectly in Christ, we will not be slaves to the law but our righteousness will exceed the requirements of the law, and thus the law will be fullfilled. The law existed for those wordly who need defined rules to live righteously, because salvation through God's grace had not yet come.

But through salvation sin is destroyed and we will live righteously without the need for the law, but by the power of the Holy Spirit. This does not mean that we will not abide by elements of the law, because through righteousness we may live in alignment with many aspects of the law, but not because we are living according to the law, but because we are living righteously according to God's will.

For example, the law says we should not covet. Though I may not covet because I am living righteously by the power of the Holy Spirit, I am not living by the law. But you see how one cannot say, I do not have to refrain from coveting because I am no longer under the law.

So if one says, "I no longer have to do this because I am no longer under the law", he should examine his motives. If you are truly living righteously and sinlessly, you have no need for the law. But if you cannot say you are truly living righteously, then to say you are no longer under the law is simply to excuse your behavior.

Yes, but if we try to obtain righteousness by the Law, we have become the enemies of Christ.

 

[VW]

I never said that Paul was wrong at anytime. I understand much about what Paul is trying to say and I totally agree with him. Paul says that the law is SPIRITUAL! The letter of the law was fulfilled in the flesh of Jesus. We, as it has been even in old testament times, walk after the spirit! We would both agree that to steal, kill, or covet is a law we must live by but when the topic of the Sabbath comes up, most christians are quick to point out that we are not under the law but under grace routine. It's funny that for a God that does not change to say that His Sabbath is FOREVER and then do away with it baffles me. But in typical "christian" fashion, you will turn this into a meaning of saturday vs sunday, when in fact, the TRUE meaning of the Sabbath has nothing to do with either one! This is what I mean by still thinking as a carnal man.The Bible states that it is lawfull to do good on anyday of the week. What work must we rest from? What is the last day spoken of when Jesus will raise those in the grave who hears His voice?

Go back and read your post # 39. I read this and was shocked.

As to the sabbath, I will say that it is a rest in God, and not an observance of a day of the week. For me, the sabbath is every day, every hour, every minute, every second, and if I am not resting in the finished work of Jesus, then I am in sin.

 

[Israel]

Go back and read your post # 39. I read this and was shocked.

As to the sabbath, I will say that it is a rest in God, and not an observance of a day of the week. For me, the sabbath is every day, every hour, every minute, every second, and if I am not resting in the finished work of Jesus, then I am in sin.

I write what the Bible says and you're shocked? Again, the law is spiritual. If you are shocked at what I've posted, then you are still seeing with the carnal mind. And again, these are talking about two different rests.

Matthew 11:28-30

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Hebrews 4:8-11

8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


What is this rest spoken of in Hebrews that clearly states something other than Jesus? The one and only gate to the city... The Sabbath of God!

 

[cionski]

One must first understand the genre of revelation before one would engage on the "is it literal, to what degree is its literal-ness". Revelation is an "apocalyptic-type of literature."People in John's day were facing persecution to the point of death and it seems hope of victory for the believers becomes dim. John wrote this certain type of literature to encourage the people of God upon waiting for the coming of Christ. Since Revelation is apocalyptic, then the beast, dragon, 666, Babylon etc. are mere sybolism.

 

[mpaper345]

The book of Revelation is literal and speaks of things to come upon earth,for God said these are things that shall come to pass,and John wrote and said he saw these things,so they are literal things.

It is a warning to the saints to stay right with God,and a warning to the world to get right with God.

Matt

 

[phil36]

The book of Revelation is literal and speaks of things to come upon earth,for God said these are things that shall come to pass,and John wrote and said he saw these things,so they are literal things.

It is a warning to the saints to stay right with God,and a warning to the world to get right with God.

Matt

are they literal, is there a beast coming out of the sea etc. and are they linear.

God says these things to come upon the earth, remember that the starting point might have been from John, theses things will come to pass, 98% of them may have already passed, don't assume that they to come to pass from our time, it was from Johns time.

Phil

 

[VW]

I write what the Bible says and you're shocked? Again, the law is spiritual. If you are shocked at what I've posted, then you are still seeing with the carnal mind. And again, these are talking about two different rests.

Matthew 11:28-30

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Hebrews 4:8-11

8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


What is this rest spoken of in Hebrews that clearly states something other than Jesus? The one and only gate to the city... The Sabbath of God!

Paul was adept in the law. He also believed in God. He did not, however, believe the truth of God!

This is what you wrote. You did mean that Paul did not believe the truth of God, correct?

I am not sure what you are referring to anymore. All of our good deeds, all of our righteousness, is filth before God's holiness. The only rest I have is in the fact that I have died with Christ, and been raised in Him to newness of life, in which God has already done everything, even the works, that I should walk in them.

I think that Paul believed the truth of God, very much. He knew just how awful his works were, when he saw Jesus on the road. I think that if he were here, he would tell you that your striving is in vain.

 

[Israel]

Romans 6:15-18

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

What are we to obey?

Without law means lawlessness!

1 Timothy 1:9-13
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Paul was adept in the law. He also believed in God. He did not, however, believe the truth of God!

Revelation 22:14-15

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

How do you enter into the gates of the city?

This is what you wrote. You did mean that Paul did not believe the truth of God, correct?

I am not sure what you are referring to anymore. All of our good deeds, all of our righteousness, is filth before God's holiness. The only rest I have is in the fact that I have died with Christ, and been raised in Him to newness of life, in which God has already done everything, even the works, that I should walk in them.

I think that Paul believed the truth of God, very much. He knew just how awful his works were, when he saw Jesus on the road. I think that if he were here, he would tell you that your striving is in vain.

Let me make it clearer for you

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

When Paul was a blasphemer, a persecutor, and injuruious, he was adept in the law. He believed in God however, he did not believe the truth. Now, if Jesus is your only rest, then either the author of Hebrews is a liar, or you have chosen to completely overlook the verse that says "if Jesus had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day." You mention good deeds and that they are like filthy rags to God. True. But ask yourself, how can resting from good deeds help us? Also, if one does work towards good deeds, how can something "good" hurt them? The author of Hebrews says that we must "LABOUR" to enter into that rest. So again, I ask you, what work are we to rest from spoken of in Hebrews?

 

[VW]

Paul at the end of his life called himself one of the greatest of sinners. Not past, but then. What rest is there besides in Jesus? None.

Of those who were before, that Moses lead out of the land of Egypt, the Holy Spirit says;

Today, if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as
when they provoked me,
as in the day of trial in the wilderness,
where your fathers tried Me by testing Me,
and saw My works for forty years.

Therefore I was angry with this generation,
and said, "They always go astray in their heart;
and they did not know My ways";
as I swore in My wrath,
"They shall not enter My rest."

The rest of God is not a day, such as we count days. God has finished His work, it is finished, complete, done. We enter His rest by being in Jesus, who finished His work, and said, it is finished.

The Law holds appeal to the natural man, even though it shows his death due to sin. The sabbath which is of the Law is a type of the true Sabbath which is in Jesus Christ. The only admonishment I find in Hebrews is to be sure not to fail to enter the rest of God, because of a hardened heart.

The only good deeds are those which God has accomplished, as it is written, that He completed them even before the foundations of the world were laid, that we should walk in them. Anyone who thinks that any deed of theirs could possibly be good has not seen God at any time, and does not know Him.

 

[angelos]

Something that came to me this evening...

If we are living perfectly in Christ, we will not be slaves to the law but our righteousness will exceed the requirements of the law, and thus the law will be fullfilled. The law existed for those wordly who need defined rules to live righteously, because salvation through God's grace had not yet come.

But through salvation sin is destroyed and we will live righteously without the need for the law, but by the power of the Holy Spirit. This does not mean that we will not abide by elements of the law, because through righteousness we may live in alignment with many aspects of the law, but not because we are living according to the law, but because we are living righteously according to God's will.

For example, the law says we should not covet. Though I may not covet because I am living righteously by the power of the Holy Spirit, I am not living by the law. But you see how one cannot say, I do not have to refrain from coveting because I am no longer under the law.

So if one says, "I no longer have to do this because I am no longer under the law", he should examine his motives. If you are truly living righteously and sinlessly, you have no need for the law. But if you cannot say you are truly living righteously, then to say you are no longer under the law is simply to excuse your behavior.

I agree with that; we are no longer under the law but we still follow the one who gave the law

 

[VW]

Paul wrote that the whole Law was summed up in one saying, that we love our neighbor as ourselves. But the commandment of Jesus is much higher than this saying, in that we are to love each other even as He has loved us. In this, the Law is not fulfilled, but completely surpassed, made obsolete, to be replaced by that which is able to perfect the worshiper, which the Law could never do.